GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #8

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  • #361
He says he put her body in the bag and took it to the car where it stayed until later that evening, at which point he took the bag into the house but left the body in the bag. He says he didn't take the body out of the bag until late evening on the Friday when he put the body in the bath.

Sorry if the next bit gets a bit graphic.

The body must have been curled up to fit in the bag surely? What about rigor mortis? That must have set in whilst the body was still curled up in the bag. Would rigor have reversed by the time he took her out of the bag? I assume he would need to wait for rigor to reverse in order to straighten the limbs to use the saw.

Did this "bag" he says he put the body in really exist? He says there were two bags, one for the body and the other for the duvet, clothes, shoes, phone, laptop etc. Where are these bags and how big are they? Are they the same bags as the suitcases found in the shed? Or were there no bags and he had to take a duvet to wrap the body in order to put it in the car, 1) so he was not seen carrying a body and 2) to try and protect the car from any blood/DNA transference? And if there were no bags, what does this mean for his kidnap story?



I did read that he said after he put the body in the bag he zipped it up which made me think of a suit bag - you know the ones men have for travelling, a lightweight but long clothes bag?
I have some long plastic/nylon bags for long coats - that sort of thing?
 
  • #362
Another thought. Remember at the beginning it was a big mystery about who was in the house that day, wasn't there some mention of it being someone's birthday, whose would that have been?

There was no "mystery". The police just did not make that information public.
 
  • #363
  • #364
I did read that he said after he put the body in the bag he zipped it up which made me think of a suit bag - you know the ones men have for travelling, a lightweight but long clothes bag?
I have some long plastic/nylon bags for long coats - that sort of thing?

Yes I know the kind you mean - I hadn't thought of that. I had read the word "suitcase" but this could just be journalistic assumption.

A man accused of murdering Becky Watts said he planned to "scare" her by putting her in a suitcase and putting tape around her mouth, a court heard.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-34593028
 
  • #365
Another thought. Remember at the beginning it was a big mystery about who was in the house that day, wasn't there some mention of it being someone's birthday, whose would that have been?


It was Becky's brother's birthday on that day

It was also SHs 21st birthday just one week before, on the 12th Feb.
 
  • #366
I did read that he said after he put the body in the bag he zipped it up which made me think of a suit bag - you know the ones men have for travelling, a lightweight but long clothes bag?
I have some long plastic/nylon bags for long coats - that sort of thing?


Oh yes, good thought re the suit bag. I had in mind a kind of long sports bag but a suit carrier type would be easier to use.
Re the strangling/suffocation - when NM talked about strangling Becky I am sure he said something about - at that time she was partially inside the bag.
I have thought for some time that perhaps he believed he had killed her by strangulation, but she was actually just unconscious - possibly the stun gun had a limited effect - and it was when he put her fully into the bag that the suffocation occurred. I know the PM mentioned hand over nose and mouth, which could have been him pushing her into the bag with force, but ultimately the suffocation could have been caused from the bag.
Hence the reason why he genuinely believed he had strangled her ?
 
  • #367
Can someone explain why the evidence given by the DNA man yesterday is better for proving that Shauna was involved? When he is saying 1 million times more likely than by chance for example, is he saying more likely than secondary transfer even taking into consideration that she lived there and the house wasn't particularly clean?

I don't think his evidence really is any better for proving Shauna was involved - he's giving the statistical likelihood of it being her DNA or not, but he isn't saying anything about how it got there.

There are two issues really: one is whether it actually is her DNA, something always difficult to say with certainty in mixed samples (and neither prosecution nor defence seem to have addressed who the other contributors to these samples are); and the second is how her DNA arrived on the sample. The evidence yesterday didn't challenge the evidence from the first scientist that it could've been through secondary transfer.

One interesting point I haven't seen discussed in relation to possible DNA transfer is that SH apparently had NM's DNA under her fingernails (link):

Discussing opportunities for DNA transfer, she confirmed Hoare was found to have Nathan Matthews' DNA under her fingernails.

Ms Morse said a green and yellow kitchen scouring pad in the bathroom of Matthews' and Hoare's Cotton Mill Lane home was found to have blood staining at one end, with a DNA profile matching Matthews.

The bit about the scouring pad is interesting too, and adds to the mystery of the lack of BW's DNA in the bathroom - how on earth did he/they know the blood on the scouring pad definitely wasn't BW's?!
 
  • #368
  • #369
<snip>
The body must have been curled up to fit in the bag surely? What about rigor mortis? That must have set in whilst the body was still curled up in the bag. Would rigor have reversed by the time he took her out of the bag? I assume he would need to wait for rigor to reverse in order to straighten the limbs to use the saw.

I believe when Becky was found, they said that her fists were clenched, which may show that her body was still in rigor mortis when she was dismembered. Not sure about other limbs though.
 
  • #370
He's a hoarder! He WOULD buy more bags etc!

S - 'Ere Nathan, what you buyin more bin bags for?'
N - 'Cause these bags look stronger than them others love and I do have a lot a lot a lotta stuff to clear out'
S - 'Oh okay then' ...

How? Why would Shauna notice that he'd filled his old hoarded suitcases with a chopped up body? When your house is full of THAT much stuff, you don't notice things any more.

Also, the reason we're all here is that we are nosy, inquisitive, questioning, observant, half intelligent people ... not everyone thinks like we do! Just because YOU think YOU would notice all these little things and immediately realise your fella had bumped off his step sister, doesn't mean your average Joe/Jane would.

Shauna's dna on a bag knot isn't enough proof for me that she did anything - bags don't come clinically sterile wrapped.
If this bag was taken downstairs and put somewhere, she could've picked it up and moved it (if there's a knotted bin bag, I'd shove my fingers through the knot to pick it up) or maybe she pulled a bag from the roll for her own rubbish ...

My other ideas of deception DO happen while the 2 people are together!

It wasn't a "body shaped bag" was it!

It matters not one bit to me whether she ultimately is convicted or not, I'm not about to start having 'Free Shauna' T-shirts printed ... I'm just trying to assumed she's innocent UNTIL I hear the BOOM - there's your beyond reasonable doubt evidence.


ETA - Just because Nathan tells us he has Fibro doesn't mean he actually has fibro and even if at some point a Dr has said 'ooh I think you might have fibro' it doesn't necessarily mean that in the heat of the moment, when necessity calls, and adrenalin kicks in, that he couldn't do what needs to be done.

I must admit, I have been basing my assumptions of SH being totally involved in all of it from the video interviews showing her obvious (sorry!) hatred of Becky, as well as circumstantial evidence - her locations at the time of all of these events (being in the house when Becky was killed, going shopping with NM for supplies, living in the house with the body, and being at the house when the men came round re transporting the body parts. And of course the text messages re kidnapping of girls. I do agree with what you are saying - that the average person may not think as in depth as those with an interest/knowledge of crime and forensics - so some things may not have stood out at the time.

That said, IF she was totally innocent, then she must have been extremely gullible, unquestioning and totally wrapped up in her own world .... or perhaps suspected what had happened, but hated Becky so much that she was happy to keep quiet and just bury her head in the sand.

Is it really possible for ALL of the following things to have happened though, and not one single one of them cause alarm bells to her?

* NM parks his car a different way to usual - saying he was going to wash the car, but never did. (It was raining that day)

* Becky goes missing and they were the last people to see her - remember that SH didn't actually witness Becky leave the house.

* SH doesn't hear a struggle, which appears to have occurred across at least 2 rooms, and ended with the death of a person.

* Becky goes missing and suddenly SH is barred from going into her bathroom for goodness knows how many days.

* SH doesn't hear the sound of electric sawing in the middle of the night .... or hears it but isn't suspicious.

* NM develops a sudden interest in deep cleaning one room of their filthy house.

* A number of items of clothing, bath mats and the shower curtain go missing from her home.

* NM needs a bunch of blokes to move some suspicious packages from their house (bearing in mind, nobody has been to the house to deliver stolen goods or drugs, and he hasn't apparently been anywhere to collect them).

Okay, I can almost believe one or two of these events might pass without notice/interest, but ALL of them? Really? I'd say at best she knew what had happened, but did nothing about it because it suited her that Becky was no longer around.

She certainly played a part when the police wanted to come round to search their house and she suddenly developed a need to visit her estranged family for the first time in years. I don't believe that was pure coincidence.
 
  • #371
Can someone explain why the evidence given by the DNA man yesterday is better for proving that Shauna was involved? When he is saying 1 million times more likely than by chance for example, is he saying more likely than secondary transfer even taking into consideration that she lived there and the house wasn't particularly clean?

Also, in NM's confession, why would he take a duvet cover from the spare room? If the spare bedroom is the bedroom in the photos of Crown Hill that isn't BW's room or the master bedroom, it is cluttered with loads of stuff on the bed. http://www.samfm.co.uk/news/local-n...ial/i/view-of-rear-box-room-at-18-crown-hill/


He refers to bringing "the bags" (plural) in after SH was asleep. As there seems to be no sign of this large bag he says he put her in or the bag he reckons he put all her clothes etc in, I reckon he wrapped either Becky or her belongings in the duvet.

Also I reckon he'd have needed to make two journeys down the stairs to the car boot. I can't picture him carrying both Becky, plus a duvet, plus shoes, plus clothes, plus a laptop etc. in one go. He's so lucky SH's cigarette break was so long to accomodate this...

ETA I see a couple of us are on the same page about using the duvet to wrap her in.
 
  • #372
ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 5m5 minutes ago
Jury are back in, court has restarted for day 12. We're hearing evidence from DC Stephen again on NM interviews #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 4m4 minutes ago
we're hearing about a second prepared statement NM gave to police, this time on March 4 #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 2m2 minutes ago
in it he reiterates that SH had nothing to do the killing of #beckywatts and said if any DNA was on items it would be 'entirely innocent'

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 2m2 minutes ago
for example, he says, SH may have helped unpack items from the shopping trips he went on #beckywatts
 
  • #373
Oh yes, good thought re the suit bag. I had in mind a kind of long sports bag but a suit carrier type would be easier to use.
Re the strangling/suffocation - when NM talked about strangling Becky I am sure he said something about - at that time she was partially inside the bag.
I have thought for some time that perhaps he believed he had killed her by strangulation, but she was actually just unconscious - possibly the stun gun had a limited effect - and it was when he put her fully into the bag that the suffocation occurred. I know the PM mentioned hand over nose and mouth, which could have been him pushing her into the bag with force, but ultimately the suffocation could have been caused from the bag.
Hence the reason why he genuinely believed he had strangled her ?

Yes from his description of her being partially in the bag and then his mask slipping, it sounds like he was going to put her into this bag alive if the mask hadn't slipped. How would that have worked unless he had used the stun gun and she was incapacitated ... or he's lying? If she was alive she'd be struggling, shouting etc. and be awfully hard to hide from his allegedly unaware girlfriend.
 
  • #374
I did read that he said after he put the body in the bag he zipped it up which made me think of a suit bag - you know the ones men have for travelling, a lightweight but long clothes bag?
I have some long plastic/nylon bags for long coats - that sort of thing?
Or one of them big old reinforced plastic type shoppers that were popular late 80s early 90s

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
  • #375
ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 5m5 minutes ago
DC Stephen says NM was giving 'long and rambling answers' and was 'quite upset' #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 1m1 minute ago
After consultation with his solicitor when arrested for murder, NM asked if police had any forensic link to Cotton Mill Lane #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 1m1 minute ago
DC Stephen said it is 'very unusual' for suspects to ask this #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 35s36 seconds ago
after saying they had found blood upstairs at Cotton Mill Lane, but forensics were still 'on going' NM had further consultation #beckywatts
 
  • #376
I don't think his evidence really is any better for proving Shauna was involved - he's giving the statistical likelihood of it being her DNA or not, but he isn't saying anything about how it got there.

There are two issues really: one is whether it actually is her DNA, something always difficult to say with certainty in mixed samples (and neither prosecution nor defence seem to have addressed who the other contributors to these samples are); and the second is how her DNA arrived on the sample. The evidence yesterday didn't challenge the evidence from the first scientist that it could've been through secondary transfer.

One interesting point I haven't seen discussed in relation to possible DNA transfer is that SH apparently had NM's DNA under her fingernails (link):



The bit about the scouring pad is interesting too, and adds to the mystery of the lack of BW's DNA in the bathroom - how on earth did he/they know the blood on the scouring pad definitely wasn't BW's?!

Do you thinks thats a typo and they mean Becky's nails not SH? Why would they be examining under SH's nails days later?
 
  • #377
Ok, I'm sorry if this is a bit (a lot) off... but I come from a farming background in Oz, so am very familiar with decomposition, etc at least in herbivores... I don't think the body would have smelt that terrible in the days after, especially as the torso was intact (I feel awful writing this...).
 
  • #378
ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 5m5 minutes ago
Jury are back in, court has restarted for day 12. We're hearing evidence from DC Stephen again on NM interviews #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 4m4 minutes ago
we're hearing about a second prepared statement NM gave to police, this time on March 4 #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 2m2 minutes ago
in it he reiterates that SH had nothing to do the killing of #beckywatts and said if any DNA was on items it would be 'entirely innocent'

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 2m2 minutes ago
for example, he says, SH may have helped unpack items from the shopping trips he went on #beckywatts
Covering all bases with SH isn't he

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
  • #379
ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 5m5 minutes ago
DC Stephen says NM was giving 'long and rambling answers' and was 'quite upset' #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 1m1 minute ago
After consultation with his solicitor when arrested for murder, NM asked if police had any forensic link to Cotton Mill Lane #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 1m1 minute ago
DC Stephen said it is 'very unusual' for suspects to ask this #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 35s36 seconds ago
after saying they had found blood upstairs at Cotton Mill Lane, but forensics were still 'on going' NM had further consultation #beckywatts
Hmm him asking about the forensics has set my hinky meter off..

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
  • #380
ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 2m2 minutes ago
he then handed over the prepared statement where he confessed to killing

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 2m2 minutes ago
Before giving over the statement, police had no links to Barton Court in relation to the #beckywatts investigation

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 2m2 minutes ago
When the prepared statement was read out, NM put his fingers in his ears and was 'upset' again, DC Stephen says #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 1m1 minute ago
A video of NM last interview is now being played to the court #beckywatts

ITV Becky Trial &#8207;@ITVBeckyTrial · 44s44 seconds ago
NM is sitting in the dock with his head bowed as the recording is being played #beckywatts
 
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