UK - Sara Sharif, 10, found murdered in house, Surrey, Aug 2023 *POIs ARREST* #3

[Charlot123]

All staff in Schools must have undertaken recent safeguarding training.

Schools must also appoint a Designated Safeguarding Lead (DSL): a senior staff member who has overall responsibility for child protection issues. The DSL must have refresher training every two years.

If a member of staff is concerned they would speak to the DSL who then would investigate further and report it to outside agencies.

You see, here is the problem I see. Within-school investigation probably doesn't allow the teachers to enter houses and check what's going on. In the US, a call can be directly placed to the CPS which is an independent agency. A child can call CPS, too, himself or herself. It gives our Child Protective Services more rights, they can enter the house or check the refrigerators, for example, but at the same time, it is faster.

 

[seasideForest]

Moo . visitation? The pic has definitely been discussed previously

The pic certainly has been discussed, back in Thread#1 I think. I don't think there was a conclusion drawn which most people could agree on though. iirc.

I don't think this is a typical child dress-up and playing about with mother's make-up photo and it certainly looks to me as if the make-up was applied by someone who is really good at it, probably not a child, not Sara. At first I didn't think this pic was problematic in any way but I am having second thoughts on that. MOO

If a visitation photo then we'd need to know when Sara last had contact to her bio mother in person and whether this pic could reflect that age. I'd put her age at 9-10 in this pic (tho I could well be wrong) and I don't think Olga had any contact with her at all in that period of her life, iirc from reports. IMO

 

[Skigh]

You see, here is the problem I see. Within-school investigation probably doesn't allow the teachers to enter houses and check what's going on. In the US, a call can be directly placed to the CPS which is an independent agency. A child can call CPS, too, himself or herself. It gives our Child Protective Services more rights, they can enter the house or check the refrigerators, for example, but at the same time, it is faster.

There are numbers children in the u.k can ring directly.
Do you mean any teacher can enter someone's house of they have a concern without discussing it with senior staff?

 

[seasideForest]

Aren't they mandated reporters and shouldn't they call protective services immediately?

Not if that's not the system in the UK! I mean, I saw from a later post of yours that you were comparing with the US, where I presume you live (you don't have to agree either way). It goes without saying that you can't simply transfer one system onto another country. Besides, there are enough examples here on WS where a child in the US or any other country wasn't protected and saved either.
MOO

 

[Skigh]

Not if that's not the system in the UK! I mean, I saw from a later post of yours that you were comparing with the US, where I presume you live (you don't have to agree either way). It goes without saying that you can't simply transfer one system onto another country. Besides, there are enough examples here on WS where a child in the US or any other country wasn't protected and saved either.
MOO

Totally agree. I really enjoy the fact that we are an international community at Websleuths,but there is no value in people stating what would happen in their own country and belittling the systems in the country of the case they are discussing.

 

[PKFS]

"A child sends a WhatsApp message to a school friend labelled “urgent”

This child has to be the 13yr old brother. All the other children would be too young to have a mobile phone and have a whatsapp account with their schoolfriends.

Again, he is a key witness! Why are they not bringing him back?!? Why is Pakistani govt and Urfan's family preventing this?

IMO

 

[Skigh]

"A child sends a WhatsApp message to a school friend labelled “urgent”

This child has to be the 13yr old brother. All the other children would be too young to have a mobile phone and have a whatsapp account with their schoolfriends.

Again, he is a key witness! Why are they not bringing him back?!? Why is Pakistani govt and Urfan's family preventing this?

IMO

I imagine he must be severely traumatised by what he experienced. Having lived with his paternal family in Pakistan, it might be considered he could have been influenced to support his father and uncle.
I wonder if he would be emotionally and mentally strong enough to testify and face cross examination.
There is a possibility police have visited him in Pakistan and he has given a statement which could be read in court.

 

[seasideForest]

I wonder if this was the first time social services had been contacted or whether there had been previous concerns.

Not the first time, no. There's mention of either Sara or the family as a whole including Sara as having been on their 'radar' so to speak. That has been quoted (with source) on these threads a few times. It was worded in a way that made people think that the contact had been a number of years back, case then closed. iirc the information even came from social services, I guess the press got onto them.

Unless you're asking whether it's the first time that particular school contacted social services?

 

[Skigh]

Not the first time, no. There's mention of either Sara or the family as a whole including Sara as having been on their 'radar' so to speak. That has been quoted (with source) on these threads a few times. It was worded in a way that made people think that the contact had been a number of years back, case then closed. iirc the information even came from social services, I guess the press got onto them.

Unless you're asking whether it's the first time that particular school contacted social services?

I did wonder whether St Mary's,Byfleet, had contacted social services about Sara or worried about other children in the family on any previous occasion.

 

[seasideForest]

I imagine he must be severely traumatised by what he experienced. Having lived with his paternal family in Pakistan, it might be considered he could have been influenced to support his father and uncle.
I wonder if he would be emotionally and mentally strong enough to testify and face cross examination.
There is a possibility police have visited him in Pakistan and he has given a statement which could be read in court.

I imagine that simply living with his father and Batool (+ the uncle) with ever decreasing contact to bio mother and her family and their culture would create some form of influence from paternal family and their view of things, then followed by living with paternal family in Pakistan for a year... who didn't and don't seem to have any respect for bio mother, Olga.

I know in some countries child victims of abuse (and maybe also child witnesses of abuse?) are cross-examined either in closed court or even via video in advance and then the video is played in closed court. So I wonder if that might have been done with him, testifying via video is certainly better than having no testimony from the brother. But I would be worried about the influence he's been under by being solely with his paternal family since Sara's death, how that might taint his opinion and even memory of what happened. MOO

With proper training of 'questioners' even the 6yo twins could have given evidence but I'm less hopeful of that having happened.

All JMO

 

[su5ie]

In light of the evidence and Sara's death ,I feel the children being awarded to the father as main custodian and olga just having access was major manipulation by urfan .
I see in similar cases where this has happened a mother has already suffered DV at the hands of the husband and in this case urfan threatened to kill olga if she kept fighting for her children so women or men in some cases give up they are downtrodden and unable for the fight and confrontation.

He is conniving enough to convince neighbours etc that he is a 'nice" man ,hardworking and polite . How many people in the media have an outward veneer of upstanding member of the community (Huw Edwards comes to mind ) people like this are experts in hiding their true self's. Urfan was just waiting for the moment to take the children in a last act of hurt and degradation to his ex wife and by smacking Sara, olga unintentionally handed him the perfect opportunity.

Imo ,Olga is also a victim the stress of going through a DV relationship leaves a person a shell of their former selves remember he had tried to strangle her with a belt no one knows what else he did I imagine ,physical, verbal ,mental and probably coercive control and sexual violence. I don't think the reasons Sara was removed from her guardianship matters tbh because what ever it was it certainly didn't come close imo to what the three defendants have done .

Someone posted asking would polish papers have access to UK records . Poland is a very advanced country and in many ways have better systems than UK and Ireland I would imagine the media in Poland have as much access as any red top or reputable newspaper in the UK and probably more factual than the filler pieces we see in the daily mail . Polish people are livid over this case as usually in Polish families children are cherished and loved in multi generational homes where their upbringing and care is shared within those generations

 

[seasideForest]

Urfan and Olga separated in 2015 (9 years ago). Batool is now 30, so she must have been over 21 when they got together.

To be fair, Batool might have met Urfan before he and Olga separated. (My post was in response to somebody else's who was querying when they met iirc.)

Quote from the Daily Mail fwiw: "The Polish uncle also revealed that Sharif had a wife in Pakistan and added: 'Our family did not know about it. Him and his family were hiding it from us. Eventually his Pakistani wife called Olga and that's how we found out.' " Polish uncle of Sara Sharif urges police to 'catch her killer' Idk if that was/is Batool or some other woman completely?? So, yeah, Batool may have met Urfan far earlier than in 2015.

 

[su5ie]

I imagine that simply living with his father and Batool (+ the uncle) with ever decreasing contact to bio mother and her family and their culture would create some form of influence from paternal family and their view of things, then followed by living with paternal family in Pakistan for a year... who didn't and don't seem to have any respect for bio mother, Olga.

I know in some countries child victims of abuse (and maybe also child witnesses of abuse?) are cross-examined either in closed court or even via video in advance and then the video is played in closed court. So I wonder if that might have been done with him, testifying via video is certainly better than having no testimony from the brother. But I would be worried about the influence he's been under by being solely with his paternal family since Sara's death, how that might taint his opinion and even memory of what happened. MOO

With proper training of 'questioners' even the 6yo twins could have given evidence but I'm less hopeful of that having happened.

All JMO

A 13 year old at the time is less likely to have problems with recollections than say a five year old . Whether fear would play a part in what the young lad holds back is another matter . Remember he would also fear his father would be set free

 

[su5ie]

To be fair, Batool might have met Urfan before he and Olga separated. (My post was in response to somebody else's who was querying when they met iirc.)

Quote from the Daily Mail fwiw: "The Polish uncle also revealed that Sharif had a wife in Pakistan and added: 'Our family did not know about it. Him and his family were hiding it from us. Eventually his Pakistani wife called Olga and that's how we found out.' " Polish uncle of Sara Sharif urges police to 'catch her killer' Idk if that was/is Batool or some other woman completely?? So, yeah, Batool may have met Urfan far earlier than in 2015.

I have heard this being allowed before a Muslim man being allowed sow his wild oats so to crudely speak while maintaining a Muslim wife .
In Islamic faith a man may be with a non believer of the faith a woman may not .

As far as reported I think bienash was English and living in UK but prehaps she lived in Pakistan with urfans family there . This can happen as the man's family can take care of the wife if the man is not present

 

[iamshadow21]

To be fair, Batool might have met Urfan before he and Olga separated. (My post was in response to somebody else's who was querying when they met iirc.)

Quote from the Daily Mail fwiw: "The Polish uncle also revealed that Sharif had a wife in Pakistan and added: 'Our family did not know about it. Him and his family were hiding it from us. Eventually his Pakistani wife called Olga and that's how we found out.' " Polish uncle of Sara Sharif urges police to 'catch her killer' Idk if that was/is Batool or some other woman completely?? So, yeah, Batool may have met Urfan far earlier than in 2015.

Wasn't it stated that Batool was born and raised in the UK?

 

[su5ie]

Wasn't it stated that Batool was born and raised in the UK?

That's what I understood from msm reports

 

[su5ie]

To be fair, Batool might have met Urfan before he and Olga separated. (My post was in response to somebody else's who was querying when they met iirc.)

Quote from the Daily Mail fwiw: "The Polish uncle also revealed that Sharif had a wife in Pakistan and added: 'Our family did not know about it. Him and his family were hiding it from us. Eventually his Pakistani wife called Olga and that's how we found out.' " Polish uncle of Sara Sharif urges police to 'catch her killer' Idk if that was/is Batool or some other woman completely?? So, yeah, Batool may have met Urfan far earlier than in 2015.

That article is eye opening in many regards I'm flabbergasted at the revelation urfan hit olga at a custody court appearance. How did he get custody after that .
I can honestly say if he walks free there better be a lynch mob ready because it will be a sin to the rights of children

 

[seasideForest]

A 13 year old at the time is less likely to have problems with recollections than say a five year old .

Well, yeeees, but memory can do strange things. If there's enough input (say from paternal family) of what didn't actually happen but supposedly did, it can taint the memory. That's what I'd be worried about here. Eyewitness Testimony and Memory Biases An interesting read on the topic, check especially Misinformation and Memory Biases. MOO

Whether fear would play a part in what the young lad holds back is another matter . Remember he would also fear his father would be set free

I think he could be very conflicted about whether is father is set free or not. Maybe he doesn't feel particularly endangered, maybe he assumes that just his sisters are. Speculation that this possibility could exist. Might not, but could. MOO

Maybe he believes that his father would take him back to the UK to live if his father is set free and I imagine that having spent his whole life apart from maybe a holiday or two in the UK, he'd prefer to go back. Sara's Polish uncle quoted "The children spoke only English and he used to threaten them that if they told someone about the trouble they were having at home, the police would come and take them to a children's home." Polish uncle of Sara Sharif urges police to 'catch her killer' (Daily Mail fwiw) If the brother spoke only English his whole life, fitting in in Pakistan especially schooling and finding friends might be a bit difficult. English is one of two official languages in Pakistan but that doesn't mean it's a lingua franca.

All JMO

 

[Dotta]

Quote from the Daily Mail fwiw: "The Polish uncle also revealed that Sharif had a wife in Pakistan and added: 'Our family did not know about it. Him and his family were hiding it from us. Eventually his Pakistani wife called Olga and that's how we found out.' " Polish uncle of Sara Sharif urges police to 'catch her killer' Idk if that was/is Batool or some other woman completely?? So, yeah, Batool may have met Urfan far earlier than in 2015.

I guess it was somebody else.
B. was born in the UK if IRC.
She is from Luton.

 

[Dotta]

"Sara Sharif likely suffered every day, jury told.​

Ten-year-old Sara Sharif likely experienced
'daily pain and suffering'
over several weeks before her death,
a court heard.

Injuries she suffered before her body was found at her family home in August last year were
'noticeable' and 'obvious',
expert witness Niall Martin
(a burns and plastic surgeon)
told the Old Bailey."

Sara Sharif likely suffered every day, jury told - BBC News

The ten-year-old likely experienced "daily pain and suffering" over several weeks, a court hears.

www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org