UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

[WestLondoner]

The thing is, there is no evidence JC did this. It's clear he is a horrible individual - incontrovertibly a rapist and murderer, and properly convicted and sentenced as such. But that's not proof he did this. The CPS saw the police's entire case in 2000, including whatever else the police may know that's not in the public domain. They still said there was insufficient evidence to charge Cannan, and specifically, they even said there was no evidence that Cannan and SJL had ever met.

There is also no reason Cannan can't have done it. There's quite a lot that suggests he probably didn't, or was too inept to have done it. But that's not proof he did not do this - it's not a piece of data, evidence or fact that proves he can't have done it.

The reason people are perhaps reluctant to accept the police assertions that he's the man is that we have been here so often before, with people whom a crime fitted nicely, but who didn't do it either.

Hence the speculation.

 

[WestLondoner]

The way SJL’s car was abandoned points to someone in a desperate hurry to leave it and get back to where SJL was actually being held.
...
We’re looking at a single perpetrator who abducted SJL because they were rejected (there’s more than one person who could have felt this way on that faithful day).

Yes, and this is an interesting point. It could well be that JC acted alone here - imprisoned SJL somewhere, drove her car away, then headed back to wherever he was holding her. If that was indeed at JT's place in Sun Road, then JC could have got her there, left her there, driven to 123SR, ditched the car and been back - even on foot - within half an hour.

The logical problems though are twofold. One is that if that's what happened, JC was able to do this without the help or even knowledge of JT. So how does JT know anything about it?

The second issue flows from the first. This could have been done by anyone who had any secure property within say a mile and a half or so of 123SR. This didn't have to be JC, nor did it have to be ST's lockup or flat that was used. A mile and a half is near enough halfway to HMP Wandsworth - why can't it have been someone who'd just been released from there, as opposed to Cannan?

 

[duquesne]

Hi Duquesne and welcome to the discussion.

Thank you WestLondoner

The above are fair points, although re leaving the handbrake off, if SJL was driving, this suggests she expected to be away from the car for quite some time. In which case, why did she not lock it, or take her purse with her (it was left in the driver's door pocket)? It is possible she did the thing with the seat, but the location, unlocked door etc again suggest she did not expect to be out of the car for long. In that case, she must have been meeting someone, and have entered another vehicle, but AFAIK nobody was seen.

Agree, having both the purse left behind and the door unlocked together seems unlikely if she planned to be away for a while, although having the door unlocked on its own seems very common, even for longish periods and up until fairly recent times.. folks even leave the keys in the car and the engine still running whilst 'nipping into the post-office' for example.. well maybe not so much in the last 10yrs I suppose. So leaving the door open and handbrake off would still make sense to me if she were planning to be away for longer - but not leaving her purse there as well, true.

For my money, the car was not there at 12.45 at all. A schoolboy reported seeing the car there at 12 noon, before SJL left the office. This says he and WJ saw a different car - possibly a different white Fiesta, or possibly one of the many lookalikes in white or thereabouts, but not her car.

Yea, I agree, could easily have been another car there, or a false memory (or a lie even)

AS goes through what this would entail in his 1988 book and it doesn't really work. There would be no reason why she couldn't run for it making a noise as soon as she's out of the car. Climbing across two seats to get out makes no sense when her attacker could simply get out via the passenger door.

I should order that book, I've only read the first couple of threads on here, then skipped 20pages at a time, and watched the sky documentary last week.. seems the book is not available on kindle.. so will order a hard copy.. hmm.. not sure what the missus or kids will think with that delivery turning up tho' lol

Personally I think BW is likeliest to be right as she actually knew SJL, so I rule out most hypotheses that don't square with the BW sighting.

Yes, I should build a scenario tree, non-recombining, with facts -> primary assumption -> secondary assumption etc.. perhaps start with likeliest branches as 'curse of dimensionality' etc will soon be apparent. Cross out inconsistent branches. Guess it can be non-commutative, so order is important and not time-based either. Assumptions for the car - 515pm sighting seems likeliest followed by 245pm.. imho. So agreed!

All a tad elaborate for my tastes. SJL had a fully-expensed if modest company car. She wasn't about to buy and fund another for personal use at the weekend. A new 3-series BMW cost about £12 - 13,000 in 1986, plus about another £1,000 a year to insure around London. So a second-hand LHD one available for £3,000 would have been a 100,000-mile junkheap that would have impressed nobody.

Unless it was a 'too-good-to-be-true' offer (which should have been a red-flag to her, clearly). 'quick sale needed due to family emergency - first to see will buy' used to be a common phrase back then as far as I remember. Also.. I used to walk several miles a day around chelsea/south ken areas back in '89 as there was no public transport route for my destination.. and I remember clearly that almost every other car was a snazzy new beamer or merc.. so it was a big market.. probably flooded with 3yr old 30-40k beamers.. and LHD would imply large discount too. Also, this is a reason I don't put too much weight on any BMW sightings in truthfulness. But in summary I was just trying to get a phone-box and BMW angle in here as I didn't see it mentioned much so far.. agree fully that this is more of a tail-event scenario!

 

[duquesne]

A warm welcome to our discussions.

thanks Terryb

LSW has outlined events that JC could have been involved in that make him a prime suspect.
There’s just no evidence.

Who is LSW by the way? I noticed those initials before. Ah.. is it Willams? Yes.. although I think maybe it's ok, in a sense, to use a little bit of hindsight for JC and consider him in the context of a 'serial killer' as I don't think he would have stopped if not caught.. and he was progressively getting worse imo. So it was the direction that he was rapidly accelerating towards at that point and later reached, something which is not common with most rapes or murder cases taken separately. I mean 'rape' goes from 'statutory rape' (e.g. 16yo boyfriend & 15yo girlfriend below age of consent), all the way up to extreme 'aggravated rape' (and in JC's case it was raping a shop assistant in the shop during broad daylight and with her toddler(?) at knifepoint whilst her mother, tied-up, watched, no?). So I'm not sure it is equivalent to look at individual non-stranger murderers or individual rapes, mostly where the victim knows the perpetrator. To completely write him off based on a statistic comparing the number of all released rapists from nearby prisons over the previous weeks doesn't seem quite right imho. But agree.. could have been any of those stranger-rape types with similar MO and no real prima-facie evidence to say it was JC except some profile, location and contemporaneous factor. I suppose if he is suspected to be the 'house-for-sale rapist' in the late '70s west midlands because of his later MO and the SJL case, but is suspected in the SJL case because is the suspected 'house-for-sale rapist' (and SJL was an estate-agent), then it's clearly a circular argument, a fit-up, and complete nonsense - and I do get that!

 

[Terryb808]

thanks Terryb

Who is LSW by the way? I noticed those initials before. Ah.. is it Willams? Yes.. although I think maybe it's ok, in a sense, to use a little bit of hindsight for JC and consider him in the context of a 'serial killer' as I don't think he would have stopped if not caught.. and he was progressively getting worse imo. So it was the direction that he was rapidly accelerating towards at that point and later reached, something which is not common with most rapes or murder cases taken separately. I mean 'rape' goes from 'statutory rape' (e.g. 16yo boyfriend & 15yo girlfriend below age of consent), all the way up to extreme 'aggravated rape' (and in JC's case it was raping a shop assistant in the shop during broad daylight and with her toddler(?) at knifepoint whilst her mother, tied-up, watched, no?). So I'm not sure it is equivalent to look at individual non-stranger murderers or individual rapes, mostly where the victim knows the perpetrator. To completely write him off based on a statistic comparing the number of all released rapists from nearby prisons over the previous weeks doesn't seem quite right imho. But agree.. could have been any of those stranger-rape types with similar MO and no real prima-facie evidence to say it was JC except some profile, location and contemporaneous factor. I suppose if he is suspected to be the 'house-for-sale rapist' in the late '70s west midlands because of his later MO and the SJP case, but is suspected in the SJP case because is the suspected 'house-for-sale rapist' (and SJP was an estate-agent), then it's clearly a circular argument, a fit-up, and complete nonsense - and I do get that!

LSW is Lady Stoddart West, you can look her up on Websleuths.
IMO she is the most knowledgeable person regarding SJL and I’ve learned an huge amount from her.
It’s well worth you looking up LSW’s posts.
Good reads are CBD “Prime Suspect”, a profile of JC. And Stephen’s book “The Suzy Lamplugh Story”
DV’s “Finding Suzy” is worth a read, has an alternative approach, but doesn’t actually find SJL.

 

[duquesne]

LSW is Lady Stoddart West, you can look her up on Websleuths.
IMO she is the most knowledgeable person regarding SJL and I’ve learned an huge amount from her.
It’s well worth you looking up LSW’s posts.
Good reads are CBD “Prime Suspect”, a profile of JC. And Stephen’s book “The Suzy Lamplugh Story”
DV’s “Finding Suzy” is worth a read, has an alternative approach, but doesn’t actually find SJL.

I will say many thanks for the pointers Terryb much appreciated! I have a LOT of questions.. but don't want to set off alerts for those that set them by posting simple 'thank you' comments.. so from now on.. 'love eyes' from me = 'many thks!'.. for other readers understanding going forward..

I'm not really around that much.. have one pre-teen (8yo) and two early teens.. so busy as hell but less busy than I was 5yrs ago I suppose (altho' taxi-service getting more frequent & does take longer these days.. many roads became single-lane or one-way where I live.. permanent gridlock)

 

[Terryb808]

I will say many thanks for the pointers Terryb much appreciated! I have a LOT of questions.. but don't want to set off alerts for those that set them by posting simple 'thank you' comments.. so from now on.. 'love eyes' from me = 'many thks!'.. for other readers understanding going forward..

I'm not really around that much.. have one pre-teen (8yo) and two early teens.. so busy as hell but less busy than I was 5yrs ago I suppose (altho' taxi-service getting more frequent & does take longer these days.. many roads became single-lane or one-way where I live.. permanent gridlock)

Forgot to mention that “Prime Suspect” & “Finding Suzy” are available on Kindle.

 

[duquesne]

tku Terry.. I've ordered a hard-copy of the '88 AS book.. gonna avoid the others until I have that read.. appreciated!

 

[duquesne]

dbm.. quote didn't appear

 

[duquesne]

I had to drop the fam off at the theatre in Hammersmith today and had time to kill waiting for pick them up. So for my own amusement I parked in Hammersmith then wandered down the FPR to 123SR, as outlined in my post above. I wanted to see how long it takes to walk from there to Sun Road. It look me 20 minutes at my normal pace. I then walked to 37SR and that took 10 minutes. Then it started chucking it down so I lost interest.

It does suggest that it is possible to ditch a car at 123SR and walk back to Sun without hurrying in a reasonable time. For quite a bit of the shortest route you are in parks and on footpaths so you'd know if anyone had seen you.

This is great info about JT's gaff in Sun Road.. first time that I've heard of that road, and had no idea he had a council flat nearby to the scrubs! Checked it on google maps too.. interesting. Good job walking it, very possible scenario too!

 

[Terryb808]

tku Terry.. I've ordered a hard-copy of the '88 AS book.. gonna avoid the others until I have that read.. appreciated!

IMO that’s the right way.

 

[tes1984]

The thing is, there is no evidence JC did this. It's clear he is a horrible individual - incontrovertibly a rapist and murderer, and properly convicted and sentenced as such. But that's not proof he did this. The CPS saw the police's entire case in 2000, including whatever else the police may know that's not in the public domain. They still said there was insufficient evidence to charge Cannan, and specifically, they even said there was no evidence that Cannan and SJL had ever met.

There is also no reason Cannan can't have done it. There's quite a lot that suggests he probably didn't, or was too inept to have done it. But that's not proof he did not do this - it's not a piece of data, evidence or fact that proves he can't have done it.

The reason people are perhaps reluctant to accept the police assertions that he's the man is that we have been here so often before, with people whom a crime fitted nicely, but who didn't do it either.

Hence the speculation.

The police still seem to be convinced that JC did it. As you mention though, the CPS weren't in agreement in 2000.

When was JC released from prison? If it was only three days before SL vanished, then that isn't a lot of time to meet Suzy and plan the crime. Hadn't she been away for the weekend too?

Or was JC on day release or weekend leave in the weeks leading up to his release?

 

[tes1984]

Has it ever been confirmed what car or cars JC actually had access to?
What are the main sources for him borrowing the red car and/or the BMW?

 

[Terryb808]

The police still seem to be convinced that JC did it. As you mention though, the CPS weren't in agreement in 2000.

When was JC released from prison? If it was only three days before SL vanished, then that isn't a lot of time to meet Suzy and plan the crime. Hadn't she been away for the weekend too?

Or was JC on day release or weekend leave in the weeks leading up to his release?

JC was at the pre release hostel, he had a day job and weekend leave. He had ample time to meet SJL prior to her disappearance.
He had access to a red Ford Sierra (belonging to another hostel member). The police much later located said car and subjected it to a forensic examination.
This didn’t provide any evidence that SJL had been in this car, not really surprising given the elapsed time between her disappearance and the examination taking place.
There’s absolutely no evidence that JC knew SJL, but given her secretive nature this isn’t surprising either.
The required level by the CPS for a case to be put forward is very high, and given the lack of any solid evidence against JC it was inevitable that they wouldn’t proceed.
IMO this doesn’t mean JC is innocent, it just means the police failed in 86 to latch onto him and actually get the evidence they needed.
SJL’s lifestyle results in there being no shortage of suspects.

 

[ruby925]

BBC news just reported Steve Wright (knew Suzy from working on cruise ship) re-arrested over 1999 murder of Victoria Hall, apparently there is new evidence. He is already on a life sentence for 5 murders.
I still find him of interest....

 

[WestLondoner]

BBC news just reported Steve Wright (knew Suzy from working on cruise ship) re-arrested over 1999 murder of Victoria Hall, apparently there is new evidence. He is already on a life sentence for 5 murders.
I still find him of interest....

He was working in Brixton when she disappeared. Brixton, like HMP Wandsworth, is as close or closer by than the Scrubs.

 

[tes1984]

BBC news just reported Steve Wright (knew Suzy from working on cruise ship) re-arrested over 1999 murder of Victoria Hall, apparently there is new evidence. He is already on a life sentence for 5 murders.
I still find him of interest....

He is still of interest, although sometimes these things are just weird coincidences. Natalie Pearman disappeared from outside the pub Steve Wright was running at the time. What are the odds? Yet the recent DNA developments in the Pearman case suggest someone other than Wright killed Natalie.
Also - unless he had a big MO change - Steve Wright doesn't seem to have been the type to conceal the bodies of his victims.

 

[tes1984]

He was working in Brixton when she disappeared. Brixton, like HMP Wandsworth, is as close or closer by than the Scrubs.

The murder of Jeanette Kempton in 1989 is a Brixton/Suffolk crime.

 

[lee sumner]

What would maybe answer some, if not all these questions would be a chat with the Met detective MB.
The Met probably feel that armchair detectives are a waste of time, however, some have an enormous amount of knowledge and an analytical approach a lot of theories could be eliminated.

armchair detectives are awesome. that is why iam always on here. all members have interesting things to say. we do a better job than the met, ha, ha.

 

[lee sumner]

MOO

I’m thinking the crime scene was in Hammersmith. Therefore, SL’s remains could well be there too.

i think SL remains are in a 5 mile radius of fulham.