UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #7

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  • #821
The red Sierra was owned on HP by the hostel chef, another pre-release lag and lifelong career criminal called Joseph Taggart (hereafter JT). He died in the late 90s, I think, not long after informing on JC.

JT had a council flat in Sun Road, about 7 minutes' walk north of 37SR and 20 minutes' north-east from 123SR. The block of flats has a number of garages built onto the back. I am not sure how they are or were then apportioned to the tenants. JT may or may not have had use of one of them, but owning a car rather suggests he did.

JT's information against JC was that they were mates in the first half of 1986, carried out a number of thefts from JC's employer SuperHire and that JC helped him out with the payments on the car when JT got short of money. In return for this, JC got some use of JT's car. We don't know what use he made of it. The celebrated car park ticket stub that showed he was in Southampton the day SC was killed in Southampton doesn't reliably put JC at the scene because we don't know who was driving it. I think JT is also the source of the intel and JD's otherwise unsupported "personal confidence" that JC had access to an LHD BMW at that time, perhaps organised by JT.

It's hard to know what to make of JT's information. As a lifelong thief, he's not the sort of person whose word you take for anything. Nor is it clear why he took 13 years to inform on JC, unless it was to obtain something in return from the plod. If so, for all we know he parlayed / expanded what could have been a very casual acquaintance with JC into some quite incriminating gossip, in return for...something.

At the other end of the possibility spectrum, he was a constructive accessory to SJL's murder. Nothing in his own criminal record suggests he was himself a killer or rapist. But he could possibly have assisted JC unwittingly with the use of his car, flat and garage without inquiring too closely into what he was doing. After the fact, JT realised that JC wasn't nicking things, but abducting and killing estate agents. JT abetted it with the loan of his car and garage, nobody will believe he didn't know, so he figures he'd better cover this up. Which he did until 1999/2000, when he related an edited version of his own involvement.

The supposed 60% DNA match in the Sierra is probably irrelevant since, AIUI, this means the sample found matches 60% of the populace. Even a 99.99% match would take in 6 to 7,000 people in the UK on that basis. So even if they ever get a match that good to SJL, I reckon the police are still going to have to show the CPS how that had to have been SJL's hair because she had met JC. A jury might actually have convicted JC without that, but that's because juries, like judges, lawyers, and police officers, don't understand probability.
 
  • #822
Well i think the likeness of the mouth speaks volumes
Until he opens his mouth and you see the prominent buck teeth.
 
  • #823
Just bought the only copy listed of the Andrew Stephen book on World of Books website. £4.95 free postage. ( £30 on ebay as West L mentioned upthread). Worth keeping an eye out on that site too if anyone is looking for a copy.


While Im here, the eyewitness account that includes the bottle of champagne.... If was linked to SJL, the champagne could be...what?

A Romantic Gesture or Gift for SJL

To Celebrate or mark a Deal or Agreement. ( House Sale/Going into Partnership/Business Agreement/A Bonus etc?)

A Gesture or Gift intended for someone other than SJL

Intended for a later Party or Event?

A Gift given to the Person earlier by someone or by SJL at the time even!?

.....
One of JC's former partner described the champagne thing as totally him. She said she had no doubt that it was him.
 
  • #824
the lamplugh case is like the JFK case in the US, full of conspiracy and innuendo. no real facts.
So if we go back to facts sjl was at work that is the last confirmed sighting of her. no one saw her go to her car, no one saw her at an address no one can 100% say they saw her apart from her work colleague.
 
  • #825
Just wondered what you thought of this
1 - jc
2- taxi driver witness
I do not think they did as there are multiple sources claiming sjl was popping out with her purse for sandwiches amongst other things
 
  • #826
Well, I don't know. First of all, if they had sandwiches delivered and MG was going out for lunch, why did he need sandwiches as well? Maybe MG intended to pretend to go to the lunch and instead abduct SJL. If so, he'd miss out on his lunch, so perhaps he took sandwiches along so he wouldn't feel hungry later while committing his crimes.

Another question, was it commonplace at Sturgis for someone to eat all the pies? Was MG the prime suspect behind the disappearance of all the pies? Did MG usually have a pie for lunch? If so, why sandwiches that day?

Plus let's not forget JC was a mate of JT, the pre-release hostel chef. Maybe SJL asked JC if he could get JT to make MG's sandwiches for him in the prison kitchen? What if these were kipper sandwiches left over from breakfast? SJL then goes to meet "Mr Kipper" to collect MG's sandwiches - but JC forgets them. SJL flies into a rage and kills Mr Kipper by beating him with her purse. She realises she's now in trouble, so she drives to the PoW, picks up her diary and some sandwiches for MG, drops them into the office unseen then hastily drives to 123SR and pretends to be WJ for the next 38 years. All along, when the police interviewed her, SJL was right in front of them!

This works because SJL never had to hide the kipper sandwiches, as there never were any. This is making the hair on the back of my neck stand

The numberplate theory is just silly.
SLP is not Suzy Lamplugh's initials. Why wouldn't he use SJL? He could have chosen any numbers and letters.
If it was a subtle reference to three women, why not use three initials, ie one from each?
Agree it is not her initials but it could be sl- suzy lamplugh
P- pershore
386 - postcode for old hills
a fairly uninhabited area with a brook running along and a parking area like at dead womans ditch and not far from drakes broughton where the met did a search
 
  • #827
Agree it is not her initials but it could be sl- suzy lamplugh
P- pershore
386 - postcode for old hills
a fairly uninhabited area with a brook running along and a parking area like at dead womans ditch and not far from drakes broughton where the met did a search
I like this kind of thinking. I was thinking more that he included SL and 86 on the number plates, to remind himself how smart he was.

He must have spent a fair amount of cash having Shirley Banks' car resprayed and buying new number plates. I wonder where the crude respraying took place, and why he invested so much time and money in a car that could (and did) get him caught.
 
  • #828
I do not think they did as there are multiple sources claiming sjl was popping out with her purse for sandwiches amongst other things
Why would she leave the Shorrolds Road diary entry if she was just popping out for sandwiches? She wouldn't have needed an excuse to leave the office for five minutes.
 
  • #829
there are multiple sources claiming sjl was popping out with her purse for sandwiches amongst other things
Are there? Could you give details of these sources, please.
 
  • #830
One or two people have speculated that that's why she took her purse but the exact issue is that nobody knows for sure where she was going. There is diary support for the 37SR visit but it does not appear she ever went inside. So if she did go you wonder why.
 
  • #831
Agree it is not her initials but it could be sl- suzy lamplugh
P- pershore
386 - postcode for old hills
a fairly uninhabited area with a brook running along and a parking area like at dead womans ditch and not far from drakes broughton where the met did a search

One or two people have speculated that that's why she took her purse but the exact issue is that nobody knows for sure where she was going. There is diary support for the 37SR visit but it does not appear she ever went inside. So if she did go you wonder why.
You have to say that her purse may mean more than given thought as if not intending to buy (if not sandwiches, something else under £15) but not making the purchase.
What could it have been, and the purse being left in the door creates space so to speak between the 2 events. (Just a different thought suggestion)
I think if to buy something then it would be within 10 minutes driving time if this was her lunch/errand, maybe cancel tennis at the tennis centre, and all the perp would have to do is erase the entry, all entrys, so i would be looking for a small tennis club with maybe son 30+ or owner coach within 10-15 drive minutes of disraeli road. As no one seems to know where she played it maybe suggests more than tennis.
 
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  • #832
One or two people have speculated that that's why she took her purse but the exact issue is that nobody knows for sure where she was going. There is diary support for the 37SR visit but it does not appear she ever went inside. So if she did go you wonder why.

A number cruncher actuarial analyst could possible help solve this crime.

Statistically speaking, what's the chances of being abducted / murdered on the exact same day that you've popped out of the office with your purse on a small errand and used a cover story?

The chances of being abducted / murdered in the middle of the day when going out on a lunch break or going to the shop or meeting a genuine client are vanishingly low. So the chance of it occurring on the same time you've used a false alibi must be negligible or even unheard of, if it wasn't also the person involved in the false alibi who caused your disappearance.

For logic / statistic reasons it makes sense that SJL was 'disappeared' by her false alibi who was indeed at least one other person she left the office to go and meet. Or she 'disappeared' herself, ie deliberately vanished to begin a new life. Was there really much investigation into whether she had run away -or- taken her own life in a way that she could remain unidentified, ie jump in Thames? If something else occurred to her whilst she was already away from her desk on a false pretext to meet an unknown person, that would be beyond belief and a statistical anomaly surely?
 
  • #833
A number cruncher actuarial analyst could possible help solve this crime.

Statistically speaking, what's the chances of being abducted / murdered on the exact same day that you've popped out of the office with your purse on a small errand and used a cover story?

The chances of being abducted / murdered in the middle of the day when going out on a lunch break or going to the shop or meeting a genuine client are vanishingly low. So the chance of it occurring on the same time you've used a false alibi must be negligible or even unheard of, if it wasn't also the person involved in the false alibi who caused your disappearance.

For logic / statistic reasons it makes sense that SJL was 'disappeared' by her false alibi who was indeed at least one other person she left the office to go and meet. Or she 'disappeared' herself, ie deliberately vanished to begin a new life. Was there really much investigation into whether she had run away -or- taken her own life in a way that she could remain unidentified, ie jump in Thames? If something else occurred to her whilst she was already away from her desk on a false pretext to meet an unknown person, that would be beyond belief and a statistical anomaly surely?
But still statistically possible as you need statistics to make statistics
 
  • #834
A number cruncher actuarial analyst could possible help solve this crime.

Statistically speaking, what's the chances of being abducted / murdered on the exact same day that you've popped out of the office with your purse on a small errand and used a cover story?

The chances of being abducted / murdered in the middle of the day when going out on a lunch break or going to the shop or meeting a genuine client are vanishingly low. So the chance of it occurring on the same time you've used a false alibi must be negligible or even unheard of, if it wasn't also the person involved in the false alibi who caused your disappearance.

For logic / statistic reasons it makes sense that SJL was 'disappeared' by her false alibi who was indeed at least one other person she left the office to go and meet. Or she 'disappeared' herself, ie deliberately vanished to begin a new life. Was there really much investigation into whether she had run away -or- taken her own life in a way that she could remain unidentified, ie jump in Thames? If something else occurred to her whilst she was already away from her desk on a false pretext to meet an unknown person, that would be beyond belief and a statistical anomaly surely?
I love this! now were getting somewhere! exactly what I have been saying in previous posts ...and you are the first person to have joined me in suggesting that she could have chosen to disappear ....we don't know the reason ...but yes totally......
How to you get murdered in Central London without a trace in broad daylight ...she didn't intend to go far at all - just popped out , no trace , no real evidence apart from hearsay, sightings that cant be verified, no body ....on your second thought - I did look into the Thames theory and many bodies that end up in there - suicides etc are never found and never resurface......
 
  • #835
But still statistically possible as you need statistics to make statistics
Agree with you as well - always a first time for a particular crime to start a statistic but what evidence do we have for any of this ? just supposition
 
  • #836
other thoughts - if she disappeared ... the police would have been looking surely at her bank account - but she could have had a second one in a different name - no mobile phone records - no CCTV on every street corner and in every shop - this was 1986......but its possible, many may say unlikely but ......yes possible. Why would she have to or want to disappear - it would have to be big. to put your family through all that ....blackmail ? or ? debt? etc why do people choose to disappear ? Why would she choose to disappear - lets just consider it - thoughts?
 
  • #837
You have to say that her purse may mean more than given thought as if not intending to buy (if not sandwiches, something else under £15) but not making the purchase.
What could it have been, and the purse being left in the door creates space so to speak between the 2 events. (Just a different thought suggestion)
I think if to buy something then it would be within 10 minutes driving time if this was her lunch/errand, maybe cancel tennis at the tennis centre, and all the perp would have to do is erase the entry, all entrys, so i would be looking for a small tennis club with maybe son 30+ or owner coach within 10-15 drive minutes of disraeli road. As no one seems to know where she played it maybe suggests more than tennis.
Was the tennis club or tennis ever investigated? Ive seen no mention of it in books content or in any information about this case.
 
  • #838
Agree with you as well - always a first time for a particular crime to start a statistic but what evidence do we have for any of this ? just supposition

A brand new statistic with no evidence or supporting facts at all would be even more unlikely.
 
  • #839
other thoughts - if she disappeared ... the police would have been looking surely at her bank account - but she could have had a second one in a different name - no mobile phone records - no CCTV on every street corner and in every shop - this was 1986......but its possible, many may say unlikely but ......yes possible. Why would she have to or want to disappear - it would have to be big. to put your family through all that ....blackmail ? or ? debt? etc why do people choose to disappear ? Why would she choose to disappear - lets just consider it - thoughts?
Maybe she knew a murderer sw and her not reporting it lead to her feeling involved maybe she knew the qe2 was docking on monday and sw had unfinished business but like you my question would be why the monday at 12:40 maybe did plan to talk through a past event.
 
  • #840
other thoughts - if she disappeared ... the police would have been looking surely at her bank account - but she could have had a second one in a different name - no mobile phone records - no CCTV on every street corner and in every shop - this was 1986......but its possible, many may say unlikely but ......yes possible. Why would she have to or want to disappear - it would have to be big. to put your family through all that ....blackmail ? or ? debt? etc why do people choose to disappear ? Why would she choose to disappear - lets just consider it - thoughts?

Logically there's only two reasons people move: 'push' or 'pull'
Running away -or- running towards. Sometimes both in combination.
Fleeing trouble, heading to new hope and better life.
 
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