UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Rookie D]

i think this photo is from oct 1986, when crimewatch aired the reconstruction.

The Crimewatch reconstruction was aired on Friday 17th October 1986 (or possibly Thursday 16th October 1986), so this image of the Red Sierra parked in Stevenage Road, had to have been filmed sometime between August to early October 1986.

It would then take a few days of post-editing to make the footage ready to be aired on the TV, so I would imagine that August or September are most likely.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Indeed. 37 Shorrolds Road and the name Mr Kipper was in her diary and as per the Crimewatch reconstruction another witness, I think called Henry Doyle saw them and said the man was holding a bottle of champagne with a ribbon round it. It would have to be a strange quirk of fate for it not

Doyle not necessarily focused on 37 - other houses nearby for sale. Yes, though, of course SL & ‘Kipper’ obvious candidates…

The police did consider the above, the viewing a ruse by SL. Also the fact she - the woman seen - was very blonde commented on by a few. SL just wasn’t from evidence we do have. They didn’t actively consider it might be someone other than SL in vicinity. Can we blame them for that?

 

[RichardKimble]

If you read the AS book on SJL towards the end of the book the Detectives give their pet theories on what they suspect happened.

Suzy has met Mr Kipper outside 37.
He has somehow managed to persuade her to let him drive her car.
He duly adjusts the drivers seat and drives to Stevenage Road where he kills her.
He then transfers her into his car and drives away.

What is considered the crime scene for the killing? The car never revealed any forensics.
JC left enough in the SB killing to build the case against him.

 

[GTB72]

What is considered the crime scene for the killing? The car never revealed any forensics.
JC left enough in the SB killing to build the case against him.

BBM. Per John Cannan"s Wikipedia page, a criminologist who was in correspondence with him alerted the Police to the fact that he had access to a Red Sierra at the time of the killing.

The article goes on to say that Police found Suzy's DNA in the car but couldn't place Cannan in the car at the same time so thus never prosecuted the case.

Since Wiki is an unreliable source I asked further upthread if anyone had seen this info from a more reliable source but no one has replied yet.

As to the crime scene, we just don't know.

In Andrew Stephen's book towards the end the Detectives on the case gave their pet theories on what they think happened.

They think both the sighting of SJL's car at 12.45 on Stevenage Road and the sighting of her with Mr Kipper at 37 Shorrolds Road are legitimate but there are timing issues. They went on to say that she could have been bundled into the car by the killer on Stevenage Road.

I have watched the reconstruction further upthread 3 times now and the only way I can get my head around the timeline it is that she went to Stevenage Road first Imo, was picked up by her killer in a car and driven to Shorrolds Road(it's a 26 walk from Stevenage Road to no 37 Shorrolds Road).

Her and Mr Kipper have conducted their business there then left the area, perhaps he has suggested they go for lunch or more likely to a pre agreed meeting point and he has killed her there outwith the area, the only thing being left to discover was her car at Stevenage Road at roughly 10pm.

The timeline in the reconstruction is as below.

12.40 Suzy leaves Sturgis Fulham.
12.45 Her car is spotted by Mrs Jones of 123 Stevenage Road parked opposite her house diagonally opposite partially covering the entrance to the garage.
12.50 A witness walking past 37 Shorrolds Road spots Suzy outside the property looking as if she was waiting on someone.
13.00 HR hears next door's front door banging, goes to his window and sees a couple outside through his window.
13.00 Nicolas Doyle crosses the road and sees Suzy and a man holding a bottle of champagne with ribbons round it.
Re Suzy leaving Sturgis at 12.40, according to Google Maps it's a 3 minute drive to 37 Shorrolds Road placing her in the area at 12.43 yet the first sighting of her is at 12.50pm, whereas it's a 6 minute drive to Stevenage Road placing her car almost exactly in the timeframe suggested by Mrs Jones, 12.45pm. The reconstruction states that Suzy's car was never officially spotted on Shorrolds Road

15.30 Mrs Jones returns home and the car is still parked in exactly the same position - overhanging the garage slightly.

This in my opinion puts in doubt the 14.45 sighting of Suzy by BW on Fulham Palace Road as Suzy would have to have returned to the car, driven up FPR for the sighting then re-parked the car in exactly the same position as it was previously, all in nice time for Mrs Jones to return home and spot it parked in the same place.

BW states that it was definitely Suzy, she waved to her but Suzy never waved back. She goes on to say she never got a good look at the man because she was concentrating on Suzy. Crucially, Imo, she says Suzy's head was turned towards the man meaning she only got a side on view of "Suzy".

I believe this was another couple and not Suzy and Kipper though BW seemed adamant in the reconstruction.

17.00 The garage owner returns and finds Suzy's car parked overhanging the garage.

22.00 Suzy's car is found on Stevenage Road.(where, Imo, it has been parked since 12.45).

Mrs Jones, the garage owner, and the Policeman who found the car is an awful lot of evidence to disregard if you think her car has been driven elsewhere after Mrs Jones sighting at 12.45pm.

Sorry about the long reply RK but your question alluded to different strands hence my verbosity.

P. S. Just realised you meant no forensics were found in Suzy's car. My bad.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

SL DNA not present in sierra in any form, an error. This I can say with some confidence.

 

[GTB72]

SL DNA not present in sierra in any form, an error. This I can say with some confidence.

That's fair enough. As I say the source was Wikipedia, a notably unreliable source. Ergo, my asking if any sleuthers had came across this information elsewhere.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

BBM. Per John Cannan"s Wikipedia page, a criminologist who was in correspondence with him alerted the Police to the fact that he had access to a Red Sierra at the time of the killing.

The article goes on to say that Police found Suzy's DNA in the car but couldn't place Cannan in the car at the same time so thus never prosecuted the case.

Since Wiki is an unreliable source I asked further upthread if anyone had seen this info from a more reliable source but no one has replied yet.

As to the crime scene, we just don't know.

In Andrew Stephen's book towards the end the Detectives on the case gave their pet theories on what they think happened.

They think both the sighting of SJL's car at 12.45 on Stevenage Road and the sighting of her with Mr Kipper at 37 Shorrolds Road are legitimate but there are timing issues. They went on to say that she could have been bundled into the car by the killer on Stevenage Road.

I have watched the reconstruction further upthread 3 times now and the only way I can get my head around the timeline it is that she went to Stevenage Road first Imo, was picked up by her killer in a car and driven to Shorrolds Road(it's a 26 walk from Stevenage Road to no 37 Shorrolds Road).

Her and Mr Kipper have conducted their business there then left the area, perhaps he has suggested they go for lunch or more likely to a pre agreed meeting point and he has killed her there outwith the area, the only thing being left to discover was her car at Stevenage Road at roughly 10pm.

The timeline in the reconstruction is as below.

12.40 Suzy leaves Sturgis Fulham.
12.45 Her car is spotted by Mrs Jones of 123 Stevenage Road parked opposite her house diagonally opposite partially covering the entrance to the garage.
12.50 A witness walking past 37 Shorrolds Road spots Suzy outside the property looking as if she was waiting on someone.
13.00 HR hears next door's front door banging, goes to his window and sees a couple outside through his window.
13.00 Nicolas Doyle crosses the road and sees Suzy and a man holding a bottle of champagne with ribbons round it.
Re Suzy leaving Sturgis at 12.40, according to Google Maps it's a 3 minute drive to 37 Shorrolds Road placing her in the area at 12.43 yet the first sighting of her is at 12.50pm, whereas it's a 6 minute drive to Stevenage Road placing her car almost exactly in the timeframe suggested by Mrs Jones, 12.45pm. The reconstruction states that Suzy's car was never officially spotted on Shorrolds Road

15.30 Mrs Jones returns home and the car is still parked in exactly the same position - overhanging the garage slightly.

This in my opinion puts in doubt the 14.45 sighting of Suzy by BW on Fulham Palace Road as Suzy would have to have returned to the car, driven up FPR for the sighting then re-parked the car in exactly the same position as it was previously, all in nice time for Mrs Jones to return home and spot it parked in the same place.

BW states that it was definitely Suzy, she waved to her but Suzy never waved back. She goes on to say she never got a good look at the man because she was concentrating on Suzy. Crucially, Imo, she says Suzy's head was turned towards the man meaning she only got a side on view of "Suzy".

I believe this was another couple and not Suzy and Kipper though BW seemed adamant in the reconstruction.

17.00 The garage owner returns and finds Suzy's car parked overhanging the garage.

22.00 Suzy's car is found on Stevenage Road.(where, Imo, it has been parked since 12.45).

Mrs Jones, the garage owner, and the Policeman who found the car is an awful lot of evidence to disregard if you think her car has been driven elsewhere after Mrs Jones sighting at 12.45pm.

Sorry about the long reply RK but your question alluded to different strands hence my verbosity.

DV likely right WJ mistaken on SL car spot 12:45. All the dog walking, knocking on for neighbours & kids on embankment can’t have taken only a few minutes. Driving parking, exchanging coins. Means fiesta had to be outside WJ before SL left office.

The police twisted themselves out of shape & recreated the journey to try to make it work. They weren’t factoring in returning dogs to houses & walks enough. It didn’t really work.

 

[Rookie D]

What is considered the crime scene for the killing? The car never revealed any forensics.

That is an extremely relevant point, because it's clear that Suzy's company car Fiesta was not the kill site.

But could the Fiesta have been the abduction vehicle that was later left deliberately in Stevenage Road by the culprit?

Or was there another abduction vehicle entirely?

IMO, it's all about timing.

IF SL was indeed seen alive by BW on the Fulham Palace Road at 2.45pm, then we can only assume that SL was still alive at this point.

We can't sure be it was the same vehicle, but unless SL was driving another white vehicle of a similar make and model, then it's more probable that it was the same Fiesta.

But that would mean that the vehicle's placement in Stevenage Road must then be questioned.

At face value it seems to me that there is a time gap between the Taxi cab driver seeing the Fiesta parked in Stevenage Road just "before 2pm." and then WJ later noticing that the car was still parked opposite her house (123 Stevenage Road) at 3.30pm, when she returned home from shopping.

So that's a potential 90 minute window in which the Fiesta was not confirmed to have been seen by anyone as parked in Stevenage Road.

It's therefore rather interesting that BW's sighting was at 2.45pm; ergo, circa 45 minutes after the Taxi cab driver's sighting just before 2pm, and 45 minutes before WJ's sighting at 3.30pm.

That may indicate that the car was parked in Stevenage Road before 12.45pm, but was then moved shortly after 2pm, and then the abduction takes place shortly after 2.45pm when SL is last seen by BW, and then the killer then drives the car back to Stevenage Road and tried to deliberately park it in the exact same place that it had been in before.

That would mean that the killer must have been in Stevenage Road before 2pm, in order for him to know that the car needed to be parked back in the same place after he had taken SL to a secret location.

The killer then drives the car back to the exact same spot, (but is a yard or so out) and so for any observer seeing the car, they would automatically assume that the car hadn't moved all day from 12.45pm.

Does the BW sighting indicate that the Fiesta WAS indeed moved and then driven back to the same spot after he abduction had taken place?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

That is an extremely relevant point, because it's clear that Suzy's company car Fiesta was not the kill site.

But could the Fiesta have been the abduction vehicle that was later left deliberately in Stevenage Road by the culprit?

Or was there another abduction vehicle entirely?

IMO, it's all about timing.

IF SL was indeed seen alive by BW on the Fulham Palace Road at 2.45pm, then we can only assume that SL was still alive at this point.

We can't sure be it was the same vehicle, but unless SL was driving another white vehicle of a similar make and model, then it's more probable that it was the same Fiesta.

But that would mean that the vehicle's placement in Stevenage Road must then be questioned.

At face value it seems to me that there is a time gap between the Taxi cab driver seeing the Fiesta parked in Stevenage Road just "before 2pm." and then WJ later noticing that the car was still parked opposite her house (123 Stevenage Road) at 3.30pm, when she returned home from shopping.

So that's a potential 90 minute window in which the Fiesta was not confirmed to have been seen by anyone as parked in Stevenage Road.

It's therefore rather interesting that BW's sighting was at 2.45pm; ergo, circa 45 minutes after the Taxi cab driver's sighting just before 2pm, and 45 minutes before WJ's sighting at 3.30pm.

That may indicate that the car was parked in Stevenage Road before 12.45pm, but was then moved shortly after 2pm, and then the abduction takes place shortly after 2.45pm when SL is last seen by BW, and then the killer then drives the car back to Stevenage Road and tried to deliberately park it in the exact same place that it had been in before.

That would mean that the killer must have been in Stevenage Road before 2pm, in order for him to know that the car needed to be parked back in the same place after he had taken SL to a secret location.

The killer then drives the car back to the exact same spot, (but is a yard or so out) and so for any observer seeing the car, they would automatically assume that the car hadn't moved all day from 12.45pm.

Does the BW sighting indicate that the Fiesta WAS indeed moved and then driven back to the same spot after he abduction had taken place?

Good points but truly, & as the police were gravely troubled by 12:45 WJ sighting plausibility at time, & I believe Barley doesn’t think she went there first, I think this early sighting can almost be ruled out. The police pushed it to make timeline work. Unless WJ & AM, when we factor in bank clock evidence, were bionic women it simply doesn’t work.

How was parking generally in road that day? Did roadworks affect it? How busy was it? All the cabbie did was pull up behind a fiesta like car at 2pm. AFAIK he didn’t see any garage overlap.

 

[Hexe]

But it was on the floor so not left on the table, and i can honestly say i never came across anything in the many years using phone boxes

That could easily happen if she sat at that bench with her open bag at her side. Then she knocked the bag off the bench, spilling it's contents and missed some items picking her stuff in a hurry.

 

[GTB72]

Good points but truly, & as the police were gravely troubled by 12:45 WJ sighting plausibility at time, & I believe Barley doesn’t think she went there first, I think this early sighting can almost be ruled out. The police pushed it to make timeline work. Unless WJ & AM, when we factor in bank clock evidence, were bionic women it simply doesn’t work.

How was parking generally in road that day? Did roadworks affect it? How busy was it? All the cabbie did was pull up behind a fiesta like car at 2pm. AFAIK he didn’t see any garage overlap.

BBM. Thanks. Didn't realise the Police had serious doubts over the WJ 8.45am sighting. Is this covered in DV's book? I think I shall buy that now. What was your take on the book?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

BBM. Thanks. Didn't realise the Police had serious doubts over the WJ 8.45am sighting. Is this covered in DV's book? I think I shall buy that now. What was your take on the book?

Serious doubts might be pushing it but they were definitely troubled on WJ sighting, did reconstruction to try to fit preferred timeline & not all agreed.

DV definitely worth reading for anyone interested in case.

 

[RichardKimble]

SL DNA not present in sierra in any form, an error. This I can say with some confidence.

That's fair enough. As I say the source was Wikipedia, a notably unreliable source. Ergo, my asking if any sleuthers had came across this information elsewhere.

So it's fair to say neither the fiesta or Sierra were linked to JC and SLJ , even in 2000 when the case was reopened no appeal was made for vehicle of any description, why? If they're adamant or at least JD is that JC did for SJL where is the movement after, searches of Norton barracks and his mums home suggests they think she was transported ,notwithstanding the CPS said no direct link between JC and SJL.

 

[Rookie D]

Good points but truly, & as the police were gravely troubled by 12:45 WJ sighting plausibility at time, & I believe Barley doesn’t think she went there first, I think this early sighting can almost be ruled out. The police pushed it to make timeline work. Unless WJ & AM, when we factor in bank clock evidence, were bionic women it simply doesn’t work.

How was parking generally in road that day? Did roadworks affect it? How busy was it? All the cabbie did was pull up behind a fiesta like car at 2pm. AFAIK he didn’t see any garage overlap.

The garage overlap only came after the car had been driven back to the same spot by the abductor.

So for the 12.45pm and 2pm sightings, the car is parked correctly; whereas, once the abduction has taken place shortly after 2.45pm, the car is then driven back to Stevenage Road by the culprit, but they inadvertently leave the back of the car overhanging the entrance to the garage.

Unless of course WJ noticed specifically at 12.45pm that the car was overhanging, then this hypothesis works IMO.

WJ notices the car when she leaves the house and then notices it again when she gets home. But did she notice it overhanging on BOTH occasions?

 

[GTB72]

So it's fair to say neither the fiesta or Sierra were linked to JC and SLJ , even in 2000 when the case was reopened no appeal was made for vehicle of any description, why? If they're adamant or at least JD is that JC did for SJL where is the movement after, searches of Norton barracks and his mums home suggests they think she was transported ,notwithstanding the CPS said no direct link between JC and SJL.

BBM. I don't know. It was stated on JC's wiki page that a criminologist in contact with JC put Police onto the Red Sierra.

I don't know if the page is referring to the book Prime Suspect by Christopher Berry Dee and Robin Odell and one of them is the criminologist in question but the wiki info must have come from somewhere.

I guess I shall have to buy the book to find out.

 

[Rookie D]

Here's another crucial piece of data to be aware of;


The woman from (139?) Stevenage Road, who claimed to have seen SL walking (in her hat around "lunchtime") along Stevenage Road accompanied by a smartly dressed man, and who later sees SL again (by herself) in the front garden of a property in the neighbouring Langthorne Street, indicates that SL had spent some time in and around Stevenage Road with the man in the suit.

What's absolutely crucial about this, is that the woman states that she sees a woman in a hat walking "away from" the football ground.
Now, one would then assume that she witnessed SL and the suited man as they were all walking near to the football ground.

But that's wrong!

The witness ACTUALLY sees SL walking with the man in the suit, AFTER the couple have ALREADY walked north PAST the white Fiesta.

This is evidenced in the Crimewatch reconstruction, when the witness is seen walking around the corner and into Stevenage Road, and then immediately observes SL and the suited man walking alongside a wall on the other side of the road.

The witness has just walked out of Millshott Close.

Millshott close is at the cross junction of Stevenage Road and Langthorne Street.

This means that moments before the witness walks around that corner, SL and the suited man have EITHER just walked past the Fiesta, or SL has just got her hat out of the car and put it on, and then walked with the man towards Langthorne Street.

The witness misses this by a matter of seconds.

So in fact, the couple are seen walking AWAY FROM THE FIESTA.

Note, that when the same witness then returns to enter Millshott Close, she looks over the road and observes SL standing in the front garden of a property in Langthorne Street; which is of course immediately opposite Millshott Close.

Based on the reconstruction, the exact house that SL was seen standing in the front garden of; was 100 Langthorne Street.

However, based on the depth perception of the witness standing on the corner, SL may have instead been standing the garden of the 102 Langthorne Street.

And what's also interesting about 100 and 102 Langthorne Street respectively, is that since the 1980's/1990's, there have been around a dozen or so private companies who have used this address as their registered address.

That's a rabbit hole I'm not willing to go any further down.


But going back to my point; the witness who sees SL and the suited man, actually observes them AFTER they have walked away from the parked Fiesta, which the witness must walk past as she heads south down Stevenage Road.

It seems apparent to me, that Mr Kipper had gone back to Stevenage Road with SL, but rather than head back to the office, he has convinced her to look at more properties. She realises she needs to get back to the office, but because she wants to please her client, she agrees; but not before taking the hat out of her car so she can look incognito as she goes the extra mile to show Mr Kipper more houses in the vicinity of Stevenage Road.

Fascinating indeed

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

BBM. I don't know. It was stated on JC's wiki page that a criminologist in contact with JC put Police onto the Red Sierra.

I don't know if the page is referring to the book Prime Suspect by Christopher Berry Dee and Robin Odell and one of them is the criminologist in question but the wiki info must have come from somewhere.

I guess I shall have to buy the book to find out.

CBD tracked down the sierra & found the pay & display ticket - that put JC in Poole at time of SC’s abduction - in JC’s BMW.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

On the Wikipedia page of John Cannan it states that a Pay and Display ticket puts him in Bournemouth on the day Sandra Court was killed.

It also states that two hairs belonging to Court were found in the Red Sierra but a prosecution was never brought.

It goes on to state that DNA of SJL was found in the Red Sierra but the CPS felt they didn't have enough evidence to proceed.

The criminologist who corresponded with Cannan alerted the Police to the Red Sierra in question according to Wiki.

I realise Wikipedia can't be fully trusted as a source since multiple people can edit it but can anyone on here shed light on who the criminologist is and whether they have came across this info from more reliable sources?

Well if you read AS 'book that's what the Detectives think. If you haven't already read it then it's well worth reading.

BBM. I don't know. It was stated on JC's wiki page that a criminologist in contact with JC put Police onto the Red Sierra.

I don't know if the page is referring to the book Prime Suspect by Christopher Berry Dee and Robin Odell and one of them is the criminologist in question but the wiki info must have come from somewhere.

I guess I shall have to buy the book to find out.

This is what I also thought. Book is definitely worth reading and available online.

 

[kes1972]

X1 taxi driver, a resident - saw SL fiesta & parked behind. No link to other driver & did not witness any person or argument.

X2 taxi driver, working his shift, saw a couple arguing - picked up ‘Galway’ passenger.

That could easily happen if she sat at that bench with her open bag at her side. Then she knocked the bag off the bench, spilling it's contents and missed some items picking her stuff in a hurry.

I personally ( only my opinion)
If i wanted to know sl whereabouts by getting the items would have taken them if she popped to the loo while dining next door,later to leave them at pub, i think what happened during this time is quite important if i was a jealous bf i may have been looking for a certain number to confirm suspicions possibly.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

CBD tracked down the sierra & found the pay & display ticket - that put JC in Poole at time of SC’s abduction - in JC’s BMW.

That's assuming it was indeed him driving it though? Something of a sticking point perhaps?

I think I recall reading that he was indeed in Poole that weekend visiting Gilly Paige.

If he's guilty of Sandra's murder we also have to believe he was not tucked up in bed at he hostel where he should have been. Depends on how free and easy things were there.

All in all that's pretty good circumstantial evidence imho, especially if one adds in the trail of items and the letter, which imho smacks of JC.

I wonder what happened to the hair(s)? Could they be retested I wonder...perhaps a more accurate result with dna advances?

I also read I think on Lolly True Crime that someone else is now in the frame?