UT - James Dudley Barker, 42, Salt Lake City, killed by LE, 7 Jan 2015

[sunflowerchick]

From this link: https://www.aclu.org/drug-law-refor...ial-justice/know-your-rights-what-do-if-you#2

"You have the right to remain silent and cannot be punished for refusing to answer questions. If you wish to remain silent, tell the officer out loud. In some states, you must give your name if asked to identify yourself."

So the question is if Utah is one of those states.

 

[al66pine]

.... Disarming, diffusing and calming DOES work as evidenced in this story: http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/21/us/georgia-school-gunshots/. [/QUOTE] bbm sbm from Aug. 22, 2013 near ATL, GA

From above cnn link: "A man slips behind someone else into a packed elementary school with an AK-47-type weapon.
He goes into the office and shoots at the ground, then darts between there and outside to fire at approaching police.So what do you do?
If you're Antoinette Tuff, who works in the front office at Ronald E. McNair Discovery Learning Academy just outside Atlanta, you don't run. You talk. You divulge your personal struggles to the gunman, you tell him you love him, you even proactively offer to walk outside with him to surrender so police won't shoot."

D, D, & C approach worked that time w that individual.

"... second arrest in six months..."
"...Suspected shooter, 20, faces charges including aggravated assault on a police officer, terroristic threats and
possession of a firearm by a convicted felon,..." per LE. bbm sbm
Diff link, dtd Aug 21, 2013 http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/20/us/georgia-school-gunshots/index.html

Is it poss shooter was initially thinking of 'suicide by cop' then changed mind? IDK.

 

[Woodland]

An officer can speak to anyone they like. If someone calls about somebody, like this man, they have an obligation to go up and talk to him. Now how they handle it after that is debatable, but they there is no rule on when they talk to somebody. Miranda Rights are different, if that's what you mean. They have to be custody, AND interrogated for that to take place. If they are just asking questions to investigate something, they can do that.

Of course LE can speak/ask, so can anyone. It's the answering at issue, imo. What are Miranda Rights for, as pointed out before this post? LE has been granted the power to have everything they want to know answered at the moment they would like it answered? I don't think that has happened and it's part of the job - and must be frustrating from time to time.

Fwiw I don't like bad guys getting away with crime. But shooting, maiming citizens when preventable doesn't seem to be solving or preventing anything. Jmo.

 

[MsFacetious]

Yes, you are required to provide identification in Utah when asked IF they believe you committed a crime.
If you see a cop at a gas station, you don't have to give him your name.
Unless he says "I smell an odor of marijuana on you." And then you do.

Doesn't matter if the odor is actually THERE...
If he claims he smells it that's reason enough to believe you committed a crime.
So in other words... you are better off just giving them your name.
I've had cops "create" an issue that did not exist to pull me over or ask me for my ID. :twocents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

"Stop and identify" statutes are statute laws in the United States that authorize police to legally obtain the identification of someone whom they reasonably suspect has committed a crime.
If the person is not reasonably suspected of committing a crime, they are not required to provide identification, even in states with stop and identify statutes.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

How is it right to say the officer's life is worth more than the gentleman with the shovel? Can we really place value on one life over another? There is NO job in this world (except maybe in the military) where protecting your life should be at the cost of someone else's with no questions asked. At the very least, LE should be held accountable financially to these families.

So you are saying that a officer should allow a violent suspect to cause bodily injury and/or death to them or another innocent citizen to preserve the violent criminals life over others? Well, we may just as well all lay down and die now then, because if that were the case then we would have no LEO's and complete mass chaos on the streets.

People make bad decisions and those decisions cost them their lives. Not just in this situation, but in many different others as well. Initiate force and expect force, including potential deadly force in return.

We all learn this in childhood. We learn that it is inappropriate to act violently and there are consequences for doing so. We learn to act respectful and answer officers questions and not act defiantly towards them. These are very, very basic common sense principals.

There is a increase in disrespect towards others in general in our society. There is no good that will come from enabling and encouraging that behavior among individuals. How will they succeed in jobs, relationships, etc. Having those characteristics will hurt a person in every aspect of their life.

 

[Woodland]

Yes, you are required to provide identification in Utah when asked IF they believe you committed a crime.
If you see a cop at a gas station, you don't have to give him your name.
Unless he says "I smell an odor of marijuana on you." And then you do.

Doesn't matter if the odor is actually THERE...
If he claims he smells it that's reason enough to believe you committed a crime.
So in other words... you are better off just giving them your name.
I've had cops "create" an issue that did not exist to pull me over or ask me for my ID. :twocents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

"Stop and identify" statutes are statute laws in the United States that authorize police to legally obtain the identification of someone whom they reasonably suspect has committed a crime.
If the person is not reasonably suspected of committing a crime, they are not required to provide identification, even in states with stop and identify statutes.

That last statement might be part of the problem. In this case, no one reported the person with the shovel had committed a crime. The officer had no evidence of a crime. Imo, if the person with the shovel had made it as far as the police station, no charges would have ensued.

 

[Woodland]

So you are saying that a officer should allow a violent suspect to cause bodily injury and/or death to them or another innocent citizen to preserve the violent criminals life over others? Well, we may just as well all lay down and die now then, because if that were the case then we would have no LEO's and complete mass chaos on the streets.

RSBM
Not to single out this poster, but starting to see/hear that some posters are telling others 'how to think' and 'how to look at this problem'. Asking then answering a question will most certainly produce the answer that is being sought. Jmo. Wondering how the 'being told' and 'speaking on behalf of or in defense of LE' will mesh overall.

Dissent is good, different opinions are good, protesters are good in a democracy. It keeps absolute power from one person or a group of person. Jmo.

 

[jjenny]

That last statement might be part of the problem. In this case, no one reported the person with the shovel had committed a crime. The officer had no evidence of a crime. Imo, if the person with the shovel had made it as far as the police station, no charges would have ensued.

I am pretty sure beating a police officer with a shovel is a crime.

 

[Lulu14]

How is it right to say the officer's life is worth more than the gentleman with the shovel?

How about saying a victim's life is worth more than the attacker's?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Of course LE can speak/ask, so can anyone. It's the answering at issue, imo. What are Miranda Rights for, as pointed out before this post? LE has been granted the power to have everything they want to know answered at the moment they would like it answered? I don't think that has happened and it's part of the job - and must be frustrating from time to time.

Fwiw I don't like bad guys getting away with crime. But shooting, maiming citizens when preventable doesn't seem to be solving or preventing anything. Jmo.

BBM: Anyone could be having a conversation with a stranger and they could snap out of nowhere and become violent. That is what happened here. It is not feasible for officers to make sure they keep a certain amount of distance between those that they come into contact with on a everyday basis. They come into contact with many daily without issue.

Every now and then they come into contact with ones that resist and are defiant and the situation is able to be controlled. Then there are rare situations when a officer may be overpowered or down, have to act quickly and in those cases there are criminals that will loose their lives in commission of crimes.

Insinuating an officer should keep so many feet between themselves and others is similar to stating that any citizen should not get within so many feet of any other person on the street and if said citizen does and gets attacked, it is the citizens fault. Then even going so far as saying the citizen that is being attacked has no right to defend themselves from the attacker.

 

[Woodland]

I am pretty sure beating a police officer with a shovel is a crime.

Was talking about the time frame before the beating/shooting occurred. My resolve is only strengthened, so tks.

 

[Woodland]

BBM:

It is not feasible for officers to make sure they keep a certain amount of distance between those that they come into contact with on a everyday basis.

RSBM

Unable to agree with that - if an officer is going to confront someone, they ought to have boundaries for their protection as well as others. Jmo.

 

[nothingnew]

I never said he did. But the officer also didn't have a right to shoot so quickly and then claim "self-defense" in order to justify killing someone.

Says you? IMO He could shoot the man and save me some money doing his job. PS-I do not have the patience to be a cop or the patience to deal with undisciplined children or grown ups. Everybody has to watch their own back, yaknow?

 

[SStarr33]

If I did show ID from 10 - 15 feet away, I would have to put a shovel down if I had one in my hands. If I was failing to produce ID with a shovel in my hand, one might want to back away wondering why I'm not putting the shovel down. Jmo.

What was the reason the officer needed this guys ID? Because neighbors had called? If a DA was consulted, would the DA have said arrest the guy for trying to drum up snow shoveling business? With or without a license? Still think a little de-escalating would have gone a long way, and will go a long way in the future.

He was looking in people's cars and trying to shovel imaginary snow.

 

[Woodland]

Says you? IMO He could shoot the man and save me some money doing his job. PS-I do not have the patience to be a cop or the patience to deal with undisciplined children or grown ups. Everybody has to watch their own back, yaknow?

Sad solution imo. Baby boomers have nothing but undisciplined children with the advent of technology, drugs and a whole host of others reasons. Baby boomers now have grandchildren that are the worse for wear. Also jmo. They could be in for a rough ride from LE with the same attitude. Many LE are baby boomer children as well. Fwiw, they should not struggle with each other - seems pointless.

 

[sunflowerchick]

We should pay criminals families? Wow.

I don't necessarily think that. I just think that somehow LE should be held accountable for their actions. Until we make them accountable, this stuff will continue.

Saying they should pay was an *example* of how they would be accountable. To be honest, it frightens me to know that any LE officer could shoot me at will, without probable cause, claim "self defense" and there isn't a dam thing anyone could do about it and no justice would be served.

 

[sunflowerchick]

He was looking in people's cars and trying to shovel imaginary snow.

Allegedly.

 

[SStarr33]

RSBM

Unable to agree with that - if an officer is going to confront someone, they ought to have boundaries for their protection as well as others. Jmo.

Really? And what would you think if that additional room allows the criminal to get away and kill your child?

 

[Lulu14]

I don't necessarily think that. I just think that somehow LE should be held accountable for their actions. Until we make them accountable, this stuff will continue.

The policeman did nothing wrong. Give him a raise, if you want to react somehow to this incident.

 

[SStarr33]

Allegedly.

Did he dispute it?