2011.06.04 Sidebar Day Ten [MERGED]

[krkrjx]

I would not worry too much at this stage that the jury is so confused by the forensics that they won't know what to make of any of it. Forensic science is confusing to lay people, and most juries appear "lost" at first. Keep in mind that during deliberations the jury can ask for portions of the record that they are unclear about be read back, and also that in closing arguments the state will describe the forensic evidence in more understandable terms.

I think the jury will do just fine with this evidence and will be able to decide how much weight to give it, especially during deliberations when they are talking amongst themselves about all the evidence and testimony. Right now, each juror is trying to process it alone because they are not allowed to discuss anything about the case with each other yet.

 

[Liz]

Heads up: Coming up after this commercial break, Fox News is supposed to have their 'power panel' weigh in on today's testimony.

 

[krkrjx]

An observation: Court in Florida certainly appears to be a lot more informal than it is here in the upper midwest.

Texting, defendant playing on a computer, defense attorney up and about during state's direct/re-direct, etc. Not to mention...the defendant bobbing her head up and down or side to side in plain sight of the jury!

I am amazed at some of the stuff that's been going on but it seems to be all in a day's work there in Orange County.

 

[Emeralgem]

I would not worry too much at this stage that the jury is so confused by the forensics that they won't know what to make of any of it. Forensic science is confusing to lay people, and most juries appear "lost" at first. Keep in mind that during deliberations the jury can ask for portions of the record that they are unclear about be read back, and also that in closing arguments the state will describe the forensic evidence in more understandable terms. I think the jury will do just fine with this evidence and will be able to decide how much weight to give it, especially during deliberations when they are talking amongst themselves about all the evidence and testimony. Right now, each juror is trying to process it alone because they are not allowed to discuss anything about the case with each other yet.

I pray they do... I also pray we get a little more conviction in their voices during their presentation to the jury...My understanding is we have one juror who is sleeping..JMHO

 

[Leila]

Friday, please don't take what Jean C. has to say, to heart...she has had a recent defense brain transplant and is no longer speaking out of her mouth...can't write it because of TOS, but I'm sure you can figure out where she is speaking out of lately...:floorlaugh:

Seriously, Jean C. has made numerous mistakes and incorrect court observations about this case and trial, that I have to wonder if we are watching the same trial. *rolleyes*

I've found that one of the best wrap-up of the day's events from someone inside the courtroom has been a poster by the name of "Magpie" at the Hinky Meter. Magpie is very observant and her summaries are lengthy and very detailed. Here's a link to her report for yesterday:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/06/03/caylee-anthony-case-magpie-reports-060311/#more-7048

 

[whiteangora]

Sorry if already answered, I'm a little behind on the thread. Anyway, HHJP said they would be available. Don't remember which day, though. I do remember JB getting a sick look on his face, lol.

bbm

Thank YOU! That just made my day! (can't wait to read)

 

[krkrjx]

I pray they do... I also pray we get a little more conviction in their voices during their presentation to the jury...My understanding is we have one juror who is sleeping..JMHO

Sleeping juror may not be sleeping but may just have her eyes closed. I do that sometimes when I am intently listening. However, in court I do not see it as appropriate because even if she isn't sleeping it may appear to some that she is!

It goes with my observation of court being rather informal in FL. For such a serious case, it being allowed doesn't compute for me. :waitasec:

 

[ThinkTank]

What happened with GA's medical records - I heard rumors on local radio that were really concerning (not repeating here because unverified). Also what happened with the grief expert DT wanted to call?

June 2, 2011 Thursday Trial notes:
RE: confusion over Motion Mason's office filed:
Judge: Mr. Mason did you serve this motion on State of FL heard tomorrow at 8:30
it came from your office - take a look at it
Mason - I've been right here
Judge - my JA said she had this motion from your office and you wanted to hear it at 8:30 in the morning
haven't we heard one of these before? what's different about this one? than one heard before?
Mason - have Brady vs Maryland ... - passing it off
Judge - go to podium
Mason - we filed she making inquiry about - don't know about new one filed by Ms Finnell hear it on 8:30 at Sat morning
Baez - my understanding we already spoke to LDB about outstanding things, if anything, she promised to inquire and get back to us
no hearing necessary

RE: new Defense witness and George medical records:
Ashton - we just received notice of a new expert witness from defense, need good cause hearing, she is listed as an expert, given a one page download from internet with brief description of this individual, also received new discovery CD containing George Anthony hospital records, need good cause hearing, never been provided to us previously, certainly witness has not..... only good cause ...

Judge - who is new expert?
Ashton - Dr. Sally Karioth phd rn (expert)
Judge - Expert in what?
Ashton - this say shes teach courses in death and family, holistic approach to health, nursing ... assume she has expertise in first category, something to do with that Baez told LDB expert has not interviewed defendant and she will give some sort of opinion

Baez - it is - with all of evidence introduced we had objected to as to KC behavior subsequent to Caylee disappearance, I think it would incumbent on us to present evidence of different type of reactions that people have in grieving process and how not uncommon for people to react to death and dying of a loved one - much of evidence to this type of evidence we strongly felt would be inadmissible - over vigorous objection it was admitted - I know court has basis for that and it has already been heard - as far as what this witness speaking on general nature of that not pertain to require a exam of KC, so avoid all those issues - State of FL also listed new witnesses over last couple days - a new witness advised - I get discovery all the time - discovery we gave today [George medical records], in our possession it might come into issues for impeachment, it is just something we disclosing no intent of pursuing at this time, it would be malpractice on my part to let something stand in the way of not attempting to explain the different reactions to death and dying and bereavement that State has presented - we relied on Randolph vs State and I had no knowledge or anticipation become issue, I sought out someone to assist us in KC's defense, and immediately disclosed to State, she is available for deposition, like Dr. Vass on Friday deposition, that's really the bulk of my position on that.

Ashton - court heard and denied motion by defense attempting to exclude evidence Baez said he was surprised you allowed in - the claim that he was surprised is disingenous, in defense pleading filed on April 12, 2011 titled Defense response... exam by mental health expert, para 2, they suggest they may want to call an expert who has not examined the defendant, which they say they just thought of, court order required both sides to fully prepare case, anticipate issues, to claim I just thought of this, we should be exempted from rules is not good cause based on order - this witness not prepared a report, court ordered reports of all experts - don't know when Baez found her - got her name, found her on internet in 2 minutes, request court require more thorough explanation when he first contacted witness in this area, pleading says contemplated April 12, not show good cause, if court wants us to depose witness, who has not interviewed defendant, no hypotheticals .... be?
George medical records...

Judge - go ahead and take depo of this witness, but call attention to case Angrand vs Key - deals with expert testimony on grief and bereavement not automatically admissible - take depo - find out what person saying - under 702.2 exam, expert testimony must be able to aide jurors understand they cannot understand - I don't know what time period she talking about because bereavement takes place after a body found, and recognize someone is dead, so for me to rule on this at this time without a depo or report given, if that person is permitted to testify that person has to do everything that every other expert does, produce report, outline things this court ordered, state all opinions that they give, so lets do that and then court decide whether or not, ya'll need to read that case folks

Ashton -when receive report?
Baez - speak with her this evening - answer question tomorrow
like to address something - I said we just thought of, just pursued - that is the absolute truth - aside from insults by counsel, it is clear I represent something to this court take it as fact, despite disparaging comments
Judge - don't need to hear that - comments not disparaging, see how you could take it as such, no need to get emotional, take the steps, see what witness testify to and I will rule, hard for me to ascertain what someone testify to when don't have reports or depo of witness, don't know what witness' background is, what qualified to opine, after get all this, determine whether or not that evidence, give ya'll a point of reference to start your research, even if jump through all hurdles, case says it may not be admissible - don't get caught scratching your head when I brought case up

Ashton - medical records issue - assume provided pursuant to rule defense use at trial - reason for late disclosure? in past we had an issue, Baez provided as "courtesy" but not to be used at trial, if use at trial, what portions, what is good cause why provided in middle of trial?

Judge - if they provide you entire record you assume they try to get the whole record in
Ashton - good cause portion?
Judge - have not reviewed medical records, don't know what issue it covers
Ashton - deadline for disclosure many months ago, why disclosed so late
Judge - we will find that out
Ashton - good cause hearing on medical records?
Judge - do it Sat at 8:30am - or 1:00
Ashton - prefer to do it at end
Judge - good cause 1pm Sat on medical records, and discuss issue.... we can't resolve issue of other expert until take depo, that depo needs to be taken one day early next week, things will crop up that neither side anticipated, a good faith obligation on party doing late disclosure to provide that witness for depo so see what witness testify to, cannot rule in a vacuum
Ashton - as soon as get report, we will set depo very quickly

 

[gitana1]

Hey, what time during the trial today did JB seem to have a fit of some sort? I'd like to see it. TIA!

 

[Leila]

Does anyone know what the dog hits were about in the backyard of the house? I never read any discovery regarding this. Did findings say that the dogs sniffed what they believed was a dead Caylee somewhere in the yard?

The first dog that was brought in by OCSO alerted on three areas of the Anthony backyard..........one area by the pool, one area near the playhouse and another area (don't recall exact location).

As a matter of policy, with the first dog making alerts, the OCSO brought in a second dog handler and dog from the sheriffs dept. in the neighboring county. The handler for the second dog was not informed where the first dog alerted.

The second dog alerted in the same three locations, and this confirmed the alerts made by the first dog.

 

[ami]

The first two weeks of the trial has now ended.

I think the state has made it absolutely clear that KC lies. I think the jailhouse tapes helped the states case, in proving KC lies. I think the media loves talking about the jailhouse tapes, not because they are a powerful piece of evidence in this case, but because they make great soundbites.

The odor in the trunk was mentioned several times during the past two weeks, and I am certain it will be mentioned many more times in future weeks. GB, MV, and KL are all very credible witnesses. I think they all did very well in presenting the evidence. They all have extensive experience in their fields.

As for the odor in the trunk being caused from human decomp vs. trash (garbage), what has been presented in evidence thus far, has not proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that it was definately from human decomp. Further evidence may change that opinion.

As for the single hair with apparent decomp, for me, even after KL's very credible presentation, I still maintain reasonable doubt. One reason being, there is only one hair, and another reason being this type of evidence has never been tried in a court before.

As for the acquisation of the air samples, I am certain MV did everything he could to do this properly. I think JB mentioned some very interesting things about this, as far as the dates when the samples were taken.

As for GB and his search for trace evidence in the trunk, I have no problems with this, and I believe he did try his best. I do not think he did anything wrong in destroying his notes after he completed his reports, since this was done in accordance with protocol for his area. It does make one wonder, however, if there was something in his notes that he had missed while filling out his report, and perhaps the protocol should be changed.

I think the state has been doing a good job laying out there case, and I think JB has been trying his best to raise reasonable doubt where he can, and we all need to keep in mind (JB needs to keep this in mind as well), that he can only cross on what the state has presented on direct.

I am looking forward to the state presenting the evidence that proves premeditated murder.

As always my entire post is my opinion only

Respectfully bolded by me.

To shed some light on this (or not... take or leave type info here as I'm not registered as an official WS expert on this): I'm a research scientist and when I do work for one specific type of agency, I also have to "destroy" my notes. It's not as bad as it sounds. I take personal notes that are eventually transcribed into an official report. The short version is that my direct supervisor reviews my notes and my report, notifies me of any questions or discrepancies and if there are none, "signs off" on the report. He signs off to verify that everything in my notes was faithfully reproduced in my report. No errors, nothing changed, nothing omitted. I then shred my personal notes.

It is standard for some agencies and the supervisor signing off on my report is the official acknowledgment that everything scientific in my notes has been transcribed into my report correctly. If there is something missing on the report that is in my notes or something ambiguous (say my handwriting of the number one looked like it could have been a seven, or there's a figure in there that looks improbable, stands out from the rest, looks like it could be an artifact of something else, a mistake in transcription, etc) then he doesn't sign the report - he makes a note of his question and we both have to review the notes and report. Anything that gets changed after the first time I submit it to him is noted, the change explained, dated and initialed. When we work with samples that require this, since I know full well any errors will be noted and the changes become part of the official record, I make darn sure I check everything several times before I hand anything over. This is one of the benefits of that system. Only after we both agree it's accurate are my notes shredded.

That protocol is in place for many reasons, but one benefit is that the report is checked numerous times and is as accurate as possible. In fact the only time we have to follow that protocol is for important stuff that will be used officially and has to be precise and verified. Everyone I work with who does the sign-off type research periodically always finds it stressful but useful. I have a lot of respect for the CSI folks who use that as standard operating procedure.

Again - I'm just a poster here so take or leave the info. :seeya:

 

[allycat1208]

The first dog that was brought in by OCSO alerted on three areas of the Anthony backyard..........one area by the pool, one area near the playhouse and another area (don't recall exact location).

As a matter of policy, with the first dog making alerts, the OCSO brought in a second dog handler and dog from the sheriffs dept. in the neighboring county. The handler for the second dog was not informed where the first dog alerted.

The second dog alerted in the same three locations, and this confirmed the alerts made by the first dog.

So these dogs were able to detect that a dead Caylee was near the pool, near the playhouse, etc.? Dogs cannot check in water such as the pool?

 

[Scamperoo]

The first two weeks of the trial has now ended.

I think the state has made it absolutely clear that KC lies. I think the jailhouse tapes helped the states case, in proving KC lies. I think the media loves talking about the jailhouse tapes, not because they are a powerful piece of evidence in this case, but because they make great soundbites.

The odor in the trunk was mentioned several times during the past two weeks, and I am certain it will be mentioned many more times in future weeks. GB, MV, and KL are all very credible witnesses. I think they all did very well in presenting the evidence. They all have extensive experience in their fields.

As for the odor in the trunk being caused from human decomp vs. trash (garbage), what has been presented in evidence thus far, has not proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that it was definately from human decomp. Further evidence may change that opinion.

As for the single hair with apparent decomp, for me, even after KL's very credible presentation, I still maintain reasonable doubt. One reason being, there is only one hair, and another reason being this type of evidence has never been tried in a court before.

As for the acquisation of the air samples, I am certain MV did everything he could to do this properly. I think JB mentioned some very interesting things about this, as far as the dates when the samples were taken.

As for GB and his search for trace evidence in the trunk, I have no problems with this, and I believe he did try his best. I do not think he did anything wrong in destroying his notes after he completed his reports, since this was done in accordance with protocol for his area. It does make one wonder, however, if there was something in his notes that he had missed while filling out his report, and perhaps the protocol should be changed.

I think the state has been doing a good job laying out there case, and I think JB has been trying his best to raise reasonable doubt where he can, and we all need to keep in mind (JB needs to keep this in mind as well), that he can only cross on what the state has presented on direct.

I am looking forward to the state presenting the evidence that proves premeditated murder.

As always my entire post is my opinion only

BBM The odor of decomp unmistakeable according to George, Cindy, Lee the tow truck driver, LE and sundry other people, yet to come Dr Vass who is an expert on human decomp as are the homicide detectives of LE, that's a heck of a lot to ignore for a plastic bag of empty cartons. There were also paper towels covered in grave wax and maggots, grave wax only comes from a dead body.
The trash in the car consisted of empty packaging and a pizza box also empty, a bottle of spit sealed (top on). No moisture at all. That's it, there are plenty of pictures of the trash where you can see this for yourself. Unless you have already bought into Baez's carp about there being pizza, ham and various foodstuffs, all disproved.

It has been tried in a court before, in fact it was tried by the DT's hair expert, but he was unable to give them the evidence they wanted so they dropped him.

You do realize that even if there were a 100 hairs with a death band the terminology would remain the same, apparent death band, what was said is clear the banding only appears on a hair if the body is deceased. One hair with mitochondrial dna from one of three people, Cindy, Casey or Caylee, the only one who is likely to have a death band is the one who is dead....Caylee. Where is the wiggle room in this?

While I respect your opinion I don't come close to agreeing with it.

 

[Leila]

So these dogs were able to detect that a dead Caylee was near the pool, near the playhouse, etc.? Dogs cannot check in water such as the pool?

From what I remember of a demonstration of cadaver dogs and what they can do, I believe that cadaver dogs can detect cadavers in water. But it's never been stated where the cadaver dogs were taken in their search of the Anthony property.......only where they alerted.

So, we don't know if the dogs were exposed to the pool water itself, or taken inside the house in addition to the yard.

I hope that when the dog handlers are put on the stand they will give the jury a background on how the dogs are trained and how accurate they are - perhaps a brief video is in order - so they'll understand the process.

 

[ThinkTank]

Hey, what time during the trial today did JB seem to have a fit of some sort? I'd like to see it. TIA!

It was after Baez' cross of FBI analyst Karen Lowe and Baez brought up a
National Academy Science report in 2009 - and said that report commissioned by Congress - very respected body of science?
Karen Lowe - not all members are scientists
Baez - organized leading members of forensic science ....
Ashton - object
Judge - approach the bench - sidebar - sounds aggravated

take mid morning recess - 15 minutes
Baez walks out back doors of courtroom with Slabaugh following - Baez walked rapidly and looked annoyed ...

I think he just left to go get the Report in question.
When he came back the Judge asked him if he was referring to about "Strengthening forensic science in the US a path forward", and the Judge told him he had to find out if this witness considers that report an authoritative source

Part 3
http://www.wftv.com/video/28131033/index.html

(5:35)
(9:33)
(10:17)
(11:01)

 

[Tipstaff]

An observation: Court in Florida certainly appears to be a lot more informal than it is here in the upper midwest.

Texting, defendant playing on a computer, defense attorney up and about during state's direct/re-direct, etc. Not to mention...the defendant bobbing her head up and down or side to side in plain sight of the jury!

I am amazed at some of the stuff that's been going on but it seems to be all in a day's work there in Orange County.

Have watched other Florida trials........nothing like this. The fact that ICA remains at her leisure in the courtroom before,during and after court for such lengths of time is so unusual. The fact that she has access to electronic devices is another weird issue and her defense team with cells phones is odd, odd, odd. Judge is being so patient. Nothing like I have ever witnessed even in FL

 

[Snaz]

What is everyone's opinion on what this, which was posted during today's testimony, means?

Jury smirks when Judge Perry talks sternly to Baez.
by cfnews13casey via twitter at 12:45 PM

I have to remind myself as I read the tweets.... this is just someone's interpretation of something they are seeing. And another person's interpretation could be (and has been on several occasions) completely different. I'm not sure anyone can really know what a juror is thinking or know for certain what an expression on their face means.

JMHO

 

[Pink Panther]

BBM The odor of decomp unmistakeable according to George, Cindy, Lee the tow truck driver, LE and sundry other people, yet to come Dr Vass who is an expert on human decomp as are the homicide detectives of LE, that's a heck of a lot to ignore for a plastic bag of empty cartons. There were also paper towels covered in grave wax and maggots, grave wax only comes from a dead body.
The trash in the car consisted of empty packaging and a pizza box also empty, a bottle of spit sealed (top on). No moisture at all. That's it, there are plenty of pictures of the trash where you can see this for yourself. Unless you have already bought into Baez's carp about there being pizza, ham and various foodstuffs, all disproved.

It has been tried in a court before, in fact it was tried by the DT's hair expert, but he was unable to give them the evidence they wanted so they dropped him.

You do realize that even if there were a 100 hairs with a death band the terminology would remain the same, apparent death band, what was said is clear the banding only appears on a hair if the body is deceased. One hair with mitochondrial dna from one of three people, Cindy, Casey or Caylee, the only one who is likely to have a death band is the one who is dead....Caylee. Where is the wiggle room in this?

While I respect your opinion I don't come close to agreeing with it.

Awesome post. I totally agree with you!

moo

 

[ZsaZsa]

I have to remind myself as I read the tweets.... this is just someone's interpretation of something they are seeing. And another person's interpretation could be (and has been on several occasions) completely different. I'm not sure anyone can really know what a juror is thinking or know for certain what an expression on their face means.

JMHO

Yes, it could be the same person who tweeted that LA was about to drop a BOMBSHELL in court... :innocent:

 

[The Farm]

From what I remember of a demonstration of cadaver dogs and what they can do, I believe that cadaver dogs can detect cadavers in water. But it's never been stated where the cadaver dogs were taken in their search of the Anthony property.......only where they alerted.

So, we don't know if the dogs were exposed to the pool water itself, or taken inside the house in addition to the yard.

I hope that when the dog handlers are put on the stand they will give the jury a background on how the dogs are trained and how accurate they are - perhaps a brief video is in order - so they'll understand the process.

Yes we have a water trained cadaver dog in my area. It is a shephard and they put him in a boat and he actually can sniff the water for a body. Quite amazing. Now if I remember correctly but I could be wrong that dog can do water and land. But the pool is 4 feet tall and NO ONE said anything about Caylee drowning in a pool when LE and those dogs were back there..
Those dogs smelled human decomposition.