Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #11

[PrimeSuspect]

i wish this forum had polls - i would love to ask

a) do you think MM is BRE
b) do you think the CCTV footage has a lot more in it

A poll could be set up here - http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?363-The-Poll-Forum!-Public-Welcome-To-Participate

 

[RETPI]

So march 1997 CG was taken and sometime in 1997 LW becomes the major suspect. ...then mo more victims around claremont. Could be many reasons for this....but maybe they broke the partnership.

I am not that versed in LW profile but I wonder if any sleuths can find a link between BRE and LW? I think both were secretive well versed computer users?

Its a theory but one worth a sleuth?

Author, Paul B. KIDD did an extensive interview with LW, to whom he gave the pseudonym, George.

This is what he had to say:

“Having researched and written about every case of serial murder in Australia’s history, I would have to say that George is the least likely serial killer I could imagine.

He has none of the common traits of a serial killer. He doesn’t come from a broken home, have a history of sexual abuse, a violent criminal record or a history of cruelty to animals, and he is not a serial arsonist.

In fact, he is the exact opposite of what history tells us is a serial murderer. His demeanour is passive and his attitude to the murdered women is compassionate.

If George is the Claremont Serial Killer, he is very, very good actor.”

The sentiments of KIDD were echoed by many experts and those in LE, but DC was convinced, “he had his man.”

If only he had listened to NAPPER and others with UK experience, who believed the KK rape was probably linked and that pre-cursor crimes and DNA would be a factor.

He said that said WAPOL were 20 years behind the UK Police culture and now, 20 years later, it appears we may have caught up.

The only good thing that came out of the LW experience, is that there were no further murders.

All the real murderer had to do is quit and the Police would continue to think they were right about LW, PW and Taxi Drivers.

If you don’t get too hung up in the hype about, “urge to kill” and simply understand rapists may kill, because something goes wrong or, in order to escape detection.

Possibly, even hate killing, but see it as a necessary evil.

You won’t get trapped into certain ways of thinking.

 

[ShellyGale]

i wish this forum had polls - i would love to ask

a) do you think MM is BRE
b) do you think the CCTV footage has a lot more in it

Yes to both. And I think the police have been too tight fisted with what information they have released. The CCTV imo should have been shown to the public, it's not very clear but someone close possibly his estranged wife, might have recognised him.

 

[mandy.maree]

i wish this forum had polls - i would love to ask

a) do you think MM is BRE
b) do you think the CCTV footage has a lot more in it

I definitely think he is
And if they do have more footage I think it was a huge mistake not releasing it a lot sooner

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[BReVeTTe]

Hi, I want to show you these, it freaked me out a little.

I've zoomed in and used Instagram filters on the photo from the CCTV footage of PMM peering around the door ..

(The bottom left photo of a selection I took from someone's post today )

Ok as I was playing around with the photo filters I could make out a face .... (yes, very pixilated and alien looking but definitely some features stood out )

I then adjusted the school photo of BRE slightly by blurring it slightly so certain features stand out more

And here are the two for comparison. The side part in both the pics are almost identical.

Edited spelling and mistake

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

_______________


so sorry if this throws a spanner in the majority's works, but to all who have referred to the peeper man in the doorway as being PMM (possible mystery man) - I definitely do not agree.
He is tall with black hair and wearing a white shirt - but to me the similarity ends there,
IMO, he also seems substantially thinner than MM.

"Toomany", i will say sincerely that you've done some nice work on that facial image, however, another user previously posted my exact thoughts on the peeper :

...I believe that the man with the black vest on in the cctv could be the same person as the man who sticks his head out the door - just without the vest. Shirt sleeves are rolled up and both with a watch

Regarding the footpath scenario seen on CCTV, there have been so many theories already discussed.
I do have my own thoughts and a long-winded personal interpretation of events - which I'v been hesitant to put forward, and I continue to debate with myself as to whether or not I should [emoji848]?
[emoji887]

 

[mandy.maree]

I remember reading that about LW . I trust Paul B Kidds opinion on that so LW was ruled out in my head.
Kidd knows his stuff

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[Mazfrank]

so sorry if this throws a spanner in the majority's works, but to all who have referred to the peeper man in the doorway as being PMM (possible mystery man) - I definitely do not agree.
He is tall with black hair and wearing a white shirt - but to me the similarity ends there,
IMO, he also seems substantially thinner than MM.

"Toomany", i will say sincerely that you've done some nice work on that facial image, however, another user previously posted my exact thoughts on the peeper :



Regarding the footpath scenario seen on CCTV, there have been so many theories already discussed.
I do have my own thoughts and a long-winded personal interpretation of events - which I'v been hesitant to put forward, and I continue to debate with myself as to whether or not I should [emoji848]?


[emoji887]

Do it [emoji846]


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[jessicalouise]

I think for sure she was waiting for him. He might not look so hot now but he's still not in bad shape for his age. Twenty years ago he wouldn't have been a bad looking bloke, if he's MM he looks tidy, walks with confidence, is personable and he made Jane laugh. He wouldn't have had too much trouble sweet talking a woman into his car. I don't think they all had to be blitz attacks.

I agree with this 100%. The fact he's been married twice before shows he is not a total undesirable.

Yes the too weird bit hits home as I remember one of the victims, please forgive because I can't remember the person, said something about his whiskers "when he was kissing me" thought that very strange as I don't think that's the MO of most serial killers/rapists to kiss their victims? It's normally to degrade and dehumanise them, kissing is an intimate act, almost like CSK thinks he's on a date, so if rejected can imagine in his mind (not that anyone can really put themselves into a killer's mind) spent all this time and effort on this woman, obviously he's showed her he's interested in her, how dare she reject his "romantic" advances? Rage, pure hatred and rage follows!

This rings very true. Also a bit reminiscent of Adrian Bayley and how quick he was to lash out at a perceived rejection (even if it wasnt "romantic")

 

[Toomanytoocountmu]

so sorry if this throws a spanner in the majority's works, but to all who have referred to the peeper man in the doorway as being PMM (possible mystery man) - I definitely do not agree.
He is tall with black hair and wearing a white shirt - but to me the similarity ends there,
IMO, he also seems substantially thinner than MM.

"Toomany", i will say sincerely that you've done some nice work on that facial image, however, another user previously posted my exact thoughts on the peeper :



Regarding the footpath scenario seen on CCTV, there have been so many theories already discussed.
I do have my own thoughts and a long-winded personal interpretation of events - which I'v been hesitant to put forward, and I continue to debate with myself as to whether or not I should [emoji848]?


[emoji887]

Thanks for your feedback I'm not convinced either way to be honest ... I just freaked out when the white blurry face started to take form ! The side hair part and the high chubby cheekbones / something about both faces seem to match to me... could just be the luck of the light/ filter.
You mentioned the weight difference ; I do know they warned that colour and size aren't to scale when they released the video.

Regarding your own personal interpretation .. I say go for it ... every one else does.






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[apoptosisfutz]

Remember, this man is very practised in his technique and has studied JR earlier in the night, or who knows, stalked her for weeks, more likely. He goes up to her at the bar maybe when she's getting drinks for the others (also, don't under-estimate, JR had seen him checking her out and was a bit flattered perhaps?) so she puts herself in a position where she can be away from the other girls at the bar and then he approaches. Does whatever chat up line her, I still feel a business card changed hands, adds credibility, then a, "I'll see you later then darling. Just you and me, get rid of those other ones, you're the one I want." Don't under rate "charm", a lot of these serial killer types are so "charming", think of a snake charmer, that's what always comes to mind, the "dance" of seduction, all very creepy, but rehearsed and planned very carefully.

If CSK gave anyone a business card that would have to be the riskiest maneuver to use....so many things could go wrong for him.

 

[mandy.maree]

I agree with this 100%. The fact he's been married twice before shows he is not a total undesirable.



This rings very true. Also a bit reminiscent of Adrian Bayley and how quick he was to lash out at a perceived rejection (even if it wasnt "romantic")

A lot of this reminds me of Bayley tbh.
I see them both as very similar monsters. Bayley would have killed more had he got away. He also tried to kiss Jill and said he got angry when she slapped him away.
I dont even think it's about the killing. Its about the rape and control for CSK and Bayley. And when the victims reject their advances or dont cooperate as planned...they go into rages .
Also helps with the avoiding detection and leaving no witnesses.

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[jessicalouise]

Remember, this man is very practised in his technique and has studied JR earlier in the night, or who knows, stalked her for weeks, more likely. He goes up to her at the bar maybe when she's getting drinks for the others (also, don't under-estimate, JR had seen him checking her out and was a bit flattered perhaps?) so she puts herself in a position where she can be away from the other girls at the bar and then he approaches. Does whatever chat up line her, I still feel a business card changed hands, adds credibility, then a, "I'll see you later then darling. Just you and me, get rid of those other ones, you're the one I want." Don't under rate "charm", a lot of these serial killer types are so "charming", think of a snake charmer, that's what always comes to mind, the "dance" of seduction, all very creepy, but rehearsed and planned very carefully.

I actually dont think that much work or effort would have gone into it. These people can spot vulnerability from a mile off.

Guys also dont even need to lay it on that thick to be charming. Men dont have to come across like Cary Grant and give businesscards and butter women up to charm and gain trust. It is far, far easier than that.

I also dont get that vibe from him. He comes across as neat, clean, somewhat normal and somewhat trustworthy. Average. Which in itself can gain someone's trust.
And also, even when guys do come across this way and girls still get a hinky feeling around them we are often quick to dismiss that feeling and go along with them.

We all have it in our minds creeps look and behave a certain way. Often this is not the case. And you know, if David Birnie can get a chick, hell, it doesn't take much.

 

[Sutton]

...Also if anyone used to frequent the premises could you tell me if there was only ONE door used to go in and out of the building ( I assume the others were locked ) with bouncers near door. Thank you in advance...

Snipped.

Here is the answer:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-Western-Australia-3&p=12179799#post12179799

 

[Misticaldees]

Who posted something about a red Ducati? TE fb post 8 Nov 15 shows he owns one. Wonder if BE has a bike license. Or used his brothers....

 

[jessicalouise]

I agree, mandymaree (sorry, for some reason it's not letting me quote you right now!)

The problem with Bayley was that some of his victims mattered (Jill Meagher) but most of his victims didn't (sex workers, tourists.) In a town like Perth where there is a disparity of wealth and quite a number of sex workers and women who the press and police don't deem as worthy victims he could have practiced his rapist/perverted/serial killing career for a long time and gotten away with it based on stigma. It may not have even been a concerted effort on his behalf to target certain women but more so opportunistic but it is up to the police, media and society to determine their "worth". I also note that great effort was made to convey SS, CG and JR as "good girls". I mean, who knows what is tally really is!

 

[CSK?]

Ok I have an out there theory...doubt I even believe it but its an idea.

What if there were 2 csk's corresponding discreetly and either competing or working together to get their victims.

The police were extremely positive about LW the other suspect. ..what if when the cops got onto him....BRE shut down. Does this fit timeline? Probably rediculous on my part.

While I disagree that the CSK was working with anyone else in relation to these crimes and highly doubt he corresponded with anyone regarding them the initial poster did bring up an interesting fact. After LW come on the police radar the killings appeared to stop. Wouldn't this be the perfect time to change your MO, hunting ground or victim location leaving LW to look like the prime suspect while you continue your little murder spree else where?

There is really only two possible scenario's, the CSK quit entirely and got out while the getting out was good, leaving other presumed innocent men to take the attention of police or he continued to kill utilizing different methods, victims and hunting grounds.


If BE is infact the CSK and did stop killing I doubt he would have stopped the sexual deviances entirely eg: a combination of stalking, stealing clothing, voyeurism etc, I'd love to know what other reports of these occurred in and around his places of residence.


While serial killers can esculate and de-esculate I find it unlikely they suddenly stop ALL of their behaviours.

 

[apoptosisfutz]

While I disagree that the CSK was working with anyone else in relation to these crimes and highly doubt he corresponded with anyone regarding them the initial poster did bring up an interesting fact. After LW come on the police radar the killings appeared to stop. Wouldn't this be the perfect time to change your MO, hunting ground or victim location leaving LW to look like the prime suspect while you continue your little murder spree else where?

There is really only two possible scenario's, the CSK quit entirely and got out while the getting out was good, leaving other presumed innocent men to take the attention off police or he continued to kill utilizing different methods, victims and hunting grounds.


If BE is infact the CSK and did stop killing I doubt he would have stopped the sexual deviances entirely eg: a combination of stalking, stealing clothing, voyeurism etc, I'd love to know what other reports of these occurred in and around his places of residence.


While serial killers can esculate and de-esculate I find it unlikely they suddenly stop ALL of their behaviours.

Just possibly, technology filled the void for him? A change in his relationship circumstance and a lot of media on LW etc.

 

[ShellyGale]

Now that he's been caught and his face is out there, I'm really surprised we haven't heard of more women coming forward The police must be working him hard to find out what he did with Sarah Spiers but he's not giving them anything it seems, even Adrian Bayley was forthcoming with information. I think BE has a bit wider criminal experience in him and with the police than it appears, he's holding out until he sees the brief and knows exactly what they've got. He'll either plead not guilty and take his chances on the evidence or cut a deal so he eventually gets parole, that deal will have to be the recovery of Sarah Spiers ... I think.

Hi everyone! First time poster, long time reader. If we work under the assumption the csk could be responsible for more rapes, murders and peeping incidents how many more could he have committed? Any of the more recent ones could be easier the sleuth - particular if he had a relationship (however minor with them (eg through LA, gaming interests, work association, siblings digital footprints etc. not discounting the blitz idea -'just think this avenue is still worth considering. Some addition options Imo include https://www.missingpersons.gov.au/who-missing/wa/brown-lisa https://www.missingpersons.gov.au/who-missing/wa/cutler-julie (already suggested) and https://www.missingpersons.gov.au/who-missing/wa/mcmahon-

 

[Misticaldees]

Now that he's been caught and his face is out there, I'm really surprised we haven't heard of more women coming forward The police must be working him hard to find out what he did with Sarah Spiers but he's not giving them anything it seems, even Adrian Bayley was forthcoming with information. I think BE has a bit wider criminal experience in him and with the police than it appears, he's holding out until he sees the brief and knows exactly what they've got. He'll either plead not guilty and take his chances on the evidence or cut a deal so he eventually gets parole, that deal will have to be the recovery of Sarah Spiers ... I think.

No way he gets paroled

Probably hasn't been with cops without his lawyer.

Still looking to challenge, won't give up body til charged.... if at all.

Ps what's with the 'a' message websluethes keeps prompting?

 

[Ramunstro]

Hi everyone! First time poster, thought this might be of interest to you. In 1996 I worked for a company contracted to sell Foxtel. At the time Telstra were rolling out fibre optic cable around Perth and had joined forces with Foxtel to get their products into peoples homes as fast as they could. Basically we sold the cable and the cable tv service, the only sevice available on cable at the time. After an aggressive media campaign we arrived in people's neighbourhoods in Foxtel branded Taragos and knocked on every door of every residence in our allocation. Our job was to to let people know that their street was going to be dug up and Telstra would be installing fibre optic cable. If they signed up for the new cable TV service the cable installation to their residence would be free but only for a limited time! People signed up in droves and within a few weeks Telstra cable crews and technicians were in every street. These techs installed cables to peoples homes including cable points (sometimes several in a home - lounge, family room, bedrooms). These were the guys that also worked out with you the best places for you cable points, and the Foxtel set top box. They also showed people how to use their cable tv service. In many cases this would be a full days job.
On the night CG went missing from The Continental we were door knocking in Claremont. We had been working around the Western Suburbs for some time and had sometimes crossed over with Telsta techs. I recall at the time there were many vans in their fleet that were branded with both the Telstra and Foxtel logos. Foxtel Tarago vans were usually on the road untill about 9 - 9.30pm.
It was just not unusual for there to be Telstra vehicles around the Western Suburbs at all times of the day or night, but particularly in Claremont at the time CG went missing.