Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #14

[Innerchild]

My apologies for making this complicated, and I’m not trying to blind you with science. But you couldn’t get anything more scientific and measurable than Newtons Laws of Motion. They describe the relationship between an object and the forces acting on it. It is not a theory. What is valuable in this calculating the second law, F = m x a, is that it gives a measurable force that is directly related to damage caused to the car. The only variable is the speed that it could be driven into the ocean. When applying the same force calculations to controlled crashes you can establish the force that was needed to cause the damage that occurred to JC’s Fiat. I lived in Forrest St Cott, just up from the beach and joined Cott surf club when I first arrived in Perth in the early 80’s. Even though I moved from my share house after two years, I stayed a Cott SLSC member for 8 to 10 years and then joined a surf club closer to home. I knew the beach, ocean, boatshed, boat ramp, groyne and reefs at Cott extremely well. I didn’t even realise there was a mid beach reef for the first three years as it was usually totally covered by sand in those days. I was still a member when the car was found in the ocean, but wasn’t at the club until a few months later and when talking with members it didn’t mean much to me at the time when they were discussing ‘a lot of damage’ and ‘too much damage to the car’ as I hadn’t seen the car. No one believed it could have been driven off groyne, but it seemed to be possibly the only way to explain damage. It wasn’t until I saw an image of the retrieved car on this site that I realised there really was too much damage. I also realised that with a basic knowledge of biomechanics you could calculate the forces that would have applied to the car in the different scenarios people had for the car entering the ocean. I was able to find controlled crashes on video clips and was able to use these as a “control” to compare the forces that needed to be applied to cause the damage that occurred. I think it is really important to establish the facts as correctly as possible before making theories, and to my knowledge no one has done this before. You would have to apply the equivalent of a force around 100 ton for around 30 sec to get the damage that occurred to the car. The damage to the car could not have occurred by having been driven into the ocean in any of the ways suggested, IMO. And if you can get your head around that, then why go to all the trouble they must have to get it into the ocean. I think JC's appearance was well planned abduction that needed an extrodanary effort to dispose of the car, and con-incidently was spared close inspection by a woman calling police and a murder investigation only 5 days after they found the car. If you could find out how and who crushed to the car to dispose of it IMO you will be getting very close to the seriously evil person or people that were at the centre of this.

Maybe you could talk to some panel beaters or crash investigators for help with your calculations. Theory is never the same as real life, there are too many variables. Also maybe surf lifesavers that work at the Cottesloe club could help you with information about ocean conditions and what effect they may have on a car.


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[Innerchild]

Thanks met, was he only about 21 at the time of Victoria Clark's murder?
BRE 18?

Correction , for #Innerchild .
1987 & 1991 are the years that masters committed the murders .

https://amp.perthnow.com.au/news/we...l/news-story/caabadc94c068367a745b2fea510be56

https://thewest.com.au/news/australia/double-murderer-could-be-freed-ng-ya-177005

 

[Spinnaker]

FULL QUOTE HAS BEEN SNIPPED

One other interesting article written in the daily news 23Jun88, right next to the first article I came across regarding JC "Police fear foul play", was an article about another lady that had left the sheraton on 28May, just got into her car & was dragged out by her hair and beaten for 3 hours by a man wearing gloves who ended up bounding her like a mummy in tape before driving her to Wilson in a small yellow car and dumping her out, throwing plastic over her, saying "Right *****, your dead " before driving off and leaving her...

Thanks for your great work no name.

The above comment is very interesting if we consider that this abduction was undertaken on the 28th May 1988 as she was leaving a 5 star hotel, the Sheraton.

Then we consider that JC was last seen at 12:30am on the 20 June 1988 leaving another 5 star hotel, the Parmelia Hilton.

There is a possibility that the above abduction and JC disappearance are related. Both crimes occur less than one month a apart and both featuring the departure from a 5 star Perth city hotel.

Would be interesting to know if the girl who was abducted worked at the Sheraton or whether she was enjoying a night out.

Great find, no name!

Do you have a copy of the article? PM me if you need to some assistance to upload image.

 

[petedavo.au]

My apologies for making this complicated, and I’m not trying to blind you with science. But you couldn’t get anything more scientific and measurable than Newtons Laws of Motion. They describe the relationship between an object and the forces acting on it. It is not a theory. What is valuable in this calculating the second law, F = m x a, is that it gives a measurable force that is directly related to damage caused to the car. The only variable is the speed that it could be driven into the ocean. When applying the same force calculations to controlled crashes you can establish the force that was needed to cause the damage that occurred to JC’s Fiat. I lived in Forrest St Cott, just up from the beach and joined Cott surf club when I first arrived in Perth in the early 80’s. Even though I moved from my share house after two years, I stayed a Cott SLSC member for 8 to 10 years and then joined a surf club closer to home. I knew the beach, ocean, boatshed, boat ramp, groyne and reefs at Cott extremely well. I didn’t even realise there was a mid beach reef for the first three years as it was usually totally covered by sand in those days. I was still a member when the car was found in the ocean, but wasn’t at the club until a few months later and when talking with members it didn’t mean much to me at the time when they were discussing ‘a lot of damage’ and ‘too much damage to the car’ as I hadn’t seen the car. No one believed it could have been driven off groyne, but it seemed to be possibly the only way to explain damage. It wasn’t until I saw an image of the retrieved car on this site that I realised there really was too much damage. I also realised that with a basic knowledge of biomechanics you could calculate the forces that would have applied to the car in the different scenarios people had for the car entering the ocean. I was able to find controlled crashes on video clips and was able to use these as a “control” to compare the forces that needed to be applied to cause the damage that occurred. I think it is really important to establish the facts as correctly as possible before making theories, and to my knowledge no one has done this before. You would have to apply the equivalent of a force around 100 ton for around 30 sec to get the damage that occurred to the car. The damage to the car could not have occurred by having been driven into the ocean in any of the ways suggested, IMO. And if you can get your head around that, then why go to all the trouble they must have to get it into the ocean. I think JC's appearance was well planned abduction that needed an extrodanary effort to dispose of the car, and con-incidently was spared close inspection by a woman calling police and a murder investigation only 5 days after they found the car. If you could find out how and who crushed to the car to dispose of it IMO you will be getting very close to the seriously evil person or people that were at the centre of this.

How much of the image posted is distortion caused by photographing a CRT image using too high a shutter speed though? Note similar distortion on the photos of CCTV vision of the vehicle in Claremont which squash the image of the roof

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[Canning Vale]

Any idea what’s happening with BREs position at Telstra? Would Telstra’s EBA permit employees to have extended time off without pay?

This is just a thought……… If BRE doesn’t get convicted, Telstra will probably be obliged to keep employing him. He’d still be entitled to a police clearance too. If his position requires a Working With Children’s Checks he probably won’t be able to get one. Telstra technicians might need a WWCs, if they perform work for schools or day care centres. If that’s the situation they’d probably have to give him an office based position. Imagine how pleased the rest of the staff will be.

 

[Spinnaker]

There is not much about JC’s disappearance that makes sense and the police seemed distracted soon after by a phone call asking to be left alone and a murder on the 27th June and for a while seemed to treat case as a disappearance. However it could have been evidence found or analysed at a later date that made them realise that JC may have been a victim of CSK. This seems like a planned abduction. According to reports she has been followed, house broken into, and possible knowledge of where she worked and where she would be that night. There was a man and women seen leaving by a witness about the same time as JC, they were asked to come forward and no one ever did. If the male and female seen were working together the stronger male could have overpowered JC, unlocked the back door and held her there while the female drove. They could have driven her in her car to a place where I think the planner(s) of the abduction were waiting. IMO this was possibly where CSK committed his first murder. The car was then driven with the female (or another) to dispose of it in the ocean at Cott. However IMO they realised that they couldn’t get it in the water, so took the back seat out which possibly had blood or evidence on it and threw it off the end of groyne. The back seat washed up south of Cott beach later that day, Monday 20[SUP]th[/SUP] June. This followed prevalent tide and coastal drift patterns.They then needed to hide the car in a garage or under tarpaulin, picked up BRE’s car and drove to city to pick up the car they left at abduction site. They take a plastic bag containing the work uniform, which they leave at the Kebab (or coffee) shop while eat / coffee. (The plastic bag is handed into and put in lost property where it stays for around a year until the manager realises it may belong to JC). They take own cars and separate. They have to decide how to dispose of JC’s car. They or BRE could drive it to many locations, bush, plantations, lakes, quarries, but the car ends up at Cottesloe beach, spotted on Wednesday morning. This is probably the most difficult option they could have chosen and defies reasonable logic. We all make assumptions but IMO almost certainly the car was not driven into the water from any of the scenarios using calculations of forces on the car and the damage the car sustained.

Hi IC, thanks for you scenario above.

You mention that a male and female were seen leaving by a witness - do you know if this was the Parmelia Hilton or JC's house?

 

[Innerchild]

On Friday 24th June 1988, on page 3 the ‘West Australian’ reports that the back seat of Julie’scar was found in the sea, near the groyne, on Monday. The car was discovered 35 metres from the beach and had been left with its ignition and lights on, front driver’s side window open, rear doors locked and both front doors unlocked. Det. Sgt. Katich is appealing for a man and a woman seen exiting the hotel just after Julie to come forward. Police also appeal for anyone who saw Julie’s car parked either on the slip road near the surf club or nearby to contact them.

Hi IC, thanks for you scenario above.

You mention that a male and female were seen leaving by a witness - do you know if this was the Parmelia Hilton or JC's house?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Pictured: The father who drove his car into the ocean at 80km/h killing himself and his two sons

Witnesses described seeing the white car nose-dive into the water after driving off the wharf at up to 80km/h.
'I saw the car go into the water. It landed on its roof and just sunk to the bottom,' Bohdi Pannenburg told 9News.
A police spokesman said witnesses saw the car 'going quite fast' and 'kind of flipped' as it went into the sea.
The white station wagon then 'quickly sank'.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...children-car-plunged-wharf.html#ixzz4fU9l9AbE

 

[Aroundthecorner]

Any idea what’s happening with BREs position at Telstra? Would Telstra’s EBA permit employees to have extended time off without pay?

This is just a thought……… If BRE doesn’t get convicted, Telstra will probably be obliged to keep employing him. He’d still be entitled to a police clearance too. If his position requires a Working With Children’s Checks he probably won’t be able to get one. Telstra technicians might need a WWCs, if they perform work for schools or day care centres. If that’s the situation they’d probably have to give him an office based position. Imagine how pleased the rest of the staff will be.

Imagine reporting a fault to Telstra and having BRE turn up at your house to fix it.


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[OneSmallStepAtATime]

Imagine reporting a fault to Telstra and having BRE turn up at your house to fix it.


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Glad I am with another phone company

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[Spinnaker]

Thanks for your great work no name.

The above comment is very interesting if we consider that this abduction was undertaken on the 28th May 1988 as she was leaving a 5 star hotel, the Sheraton.

Then we consider that JC was last seen at 12:30am on the 20 June 1988 leaving another 5 star hotel, the Parmelia Hilton.

There is a possibility that the above abduction and JC disappearance are related. Both crimes occur less than one month a apart and both featuring the departure from a 5 star Perth city hotel.

Would be interesting to know if the girl who was abducted worked at the Sheraton or whether she was enjoying a night out.

Great find, no name!

Do you have a copy of the article? PM me if you need to some assistance to upload image.

Appears that the Sheraton abduction was also mentioned in Debi Marshall's book.

Sutton refers to it below on WS #977 thread 6.

"Who is Debi Marshall referring to in this passage from her book:
(Location 2627, near the end of Chapter 47)
Three weeks before Cutler disappeared, another woman had been abducted and bound after leaving Perth's Sheraton Hotel, and later dumped near a bridge.
This would have been the first of June or the end of May 1988, as Julie was last seen on 20 June 1988."
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...er-1996-1997-Perth-Western-Australia-6/page66

​

 

[Canning Vale]

Imagine reporting a fault to Telstra and having BRE turn up at your house to fix it.


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Especially creepy if he's carrying phone wire!

The publicity is bad for business. I suppose Telstra have offered, or will eventually offer him a payout to leave. He could keep refusing until they offer a huge amount. A Human resources officer would have to touch base with him - see how he's holding up, if the accommodation is satisfactory and the meals are up to standard. LOL

This is only an assumption and my opinion only.

 

[Aroundthecorner]

Especially creepy if he's carrying phone wire!

The publicity is bad for business. I suppose Telstra have offered or will offer him a payout to leave. He could keep refusing until they offer a huge amount. A Human resources officer would have to touch base with him.

This is only an assumption and my opinion only.

There was a "for sale" sign near the Kewdale home the other day and as we were driving my friend said, " I wonder if it's his place?" To which I replied, there would certainly be no surer sign you thought you were going to prison than to sell your house! It wasn't his, of course.


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[7SJ707]

Appears that the Sheraton abduction was also mentioned in Debi Marshall's book.

Sutton refers to it below on WS #977 thread 6.


"Who is Debi Marshall referring to in this passage from her book:
(Location 2627, near the end of Chapter 47)
Three weeks before Cutler disappeared, another woman had been abducted and bound after leaving Perth's Sheraton Hotel, and later dumped near a bridge.
This would have been the first of June or the end of May 1988, as Julie was last seen on 20 June 1988."
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...er-1996-1997-Perth-Western-Australia-6/page66

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Yes have always been aware of this reported attack on the woman Leaving the Sheraton three weeks prior to JCs dissapearance. It makes the lack of media attention given to the Cutler Mystery at the time, even more astounding.
Also, have wondered about a possible tie in with Sally Greenham who went missing in the early hours from Adelaide terrace several months earlier in August 1987.
The Hilton, the Sheraton, Club Bay View, Pinnochios, the OBH...these were the 5 star best and well patronised venues at the respective times of the dissapearances....

 

[petedavo.au]

Appears that the Sheraton abduction was also mentioned in Debi Marshall's book.

Sutton refers to it below on WS #977 thread 6.

"Who is Debi Marshall referring to in this passage from her book:
(Location 2627, near the end of Chapter 47)
Three weeks before Cutler disappeared, another woman had been abducted and bound after leaving Perth's Sheraton Hotel, and later dumped near a bridge.
This would have been the first of June or the end of May 1988, as Julie was last seen on 20 June 1988."
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...er-1996-1997-Perth-Western-Australia-6/page66

​

Post #343 says she was dumped at Wilson.
Deb Marshall says a bridge.

Wilson + Bridge = Riverton Bridge.

I'm not surprised, Riverton Bridge and it's surroundings had a very salubrious reputation for a very long time.

Note that back then it was also a shortcut to Thornlie/Huntingdale, especially via back streets, like Douglas Ave/Hayman Rd, Riley Rd, High Rd and Spencer Rd as it cut a lot of kilometres from a trip between the city and suburbs west of Albany Highway, before Mt Henry Bridge was built to extend the freeway past Manning Rd.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverton_Bridge

BRE would've known the shortcuts well, since he was going to Telecom technical school on the corner of Ley St and Manning Rd.

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[Canning Vale]

Post #343 says she was dumped at Wilson.
Deb Marshall says a bridge.

Wilson + Bridge = Riverton Bridge.

I'm not surprised, Riverton Bridge and it's surroundings had a very salubrious reputation for a very long time.

Note that back then it was also a shortcut to Thornlie/Huntingdale, especially via back streets, like Douglas Ave/Hayman Rd, Riley Rd, High Rd and Spencer Rd as it cut a lot of kilometres from a trip between the city and suburbs west of Albany Highway, before Mt Henry Bridge was built to extend the freeway past Manning Rd.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverton_Bridge

BRE would've known the shortcuts well, since he was going to Telecom technical school on the corner of Ley St and Manning Rd.

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The Fern Rd bridge was a main thoroughfare prior to the Shelley Bridge being built. There's also a footbridge at Kent St weir.

 

[petedavo.au]

If JC's car was damaged based upon the photo of a TV screen, then it beggars how, if not during the recovery process did the damage occur.
I searched Google Earth, and there's 2 possible places in Cottesloe.
The Sun Dial on Mudurup rocks is above a Cliff, and has a track big enough for a car. I note that the sun dial was built before 1988. Also there's a Quarry, that now a housing development, but in 1988 it was a an abandoned Quarry, only a block from the ocean. Seems unlikely though to be able to move it once damaged though. And also unlikely it'd float from Mudurup around the groyne either.
But who knows? Either way, JC's disappearance has a lot to do with the car IMO.

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[Canning Vale]

Back in the 1970s a group of teenagers took my friend and I to a network of underground tunnels which was located near a beach. It was somewhere near Cottesloe. The man-made tunnels might have been, once owned by the military. We got into the network through a door and walked through, it was very dark, without electricity or windows and very secluded. At the time there wasn't any housing around. Does anyone have any idea where and what that was?

 

[b4u]

Back in the 1970s a group of teenagers took my friend and I to a network of underground tunnels which was located near a beach. It was somewhere near Cottesloe. The man-made tunnels might have been, once owned by the military. We got into the network through a door and walked through, it was very dark, without electricity or windows and very secluded. At the time there wasn't any housing around. Does anyone have any idea where and what that was?

http://www.artillerywa.org.au/raahs/leighton.htm ?

World War 2 Tunnels

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ENTRANCE :Car Park, BOUNDARY ROAD, MOSMAN PARK
OPEN: EVERY SUNDAY OF THE MONTH
HOURS: 10.00 am – 3.00 pm

 

[petedavo.au]

http://www.artillerywa.org.au/raahs/leighton.htm ?

​

Buckland Hill.
There's others at Rottnest, where 1 of my grandfather's was stationed during WW2. And gun emplacements at Point Peron, and Garden Island. No bodies could be hidden in them. Too well visited. Same with the cliff cave at Rocky Bay and the old soap factory tunnel.

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