Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #4

[Rachelj1]

Do we even know what the adoptive family is doing in regards to the boys being missing?

No , other than their pubic statements?

 

[Rachelj1]

There has been a few things that have bothered me as well besides the FACT these boys are still missing.
TW said he talked to a neighbor when he was searching....did he? In the video there is a neighbor watching him...but I dont see TW stop and talk? Which neighbor did he talk to ?? Also JW never went outside that we saw from survelliance. What kind of searching does she think she did? She would of heard the boys come inside?? I mean this is unreal , someone needs to go harder on this family to try to get some answers.

MOO

 

[Dre]

This has been bothering me here on WS as of late,
There is plenty of footage of disenfranchised, ignorant, and sometimes annoying people giving their opinions on the case or handing of it .. they can be completely wrong, and say absurd things, but if they're not actually apart of the facts of the case in any way, then why are we even talking about it?

WE ARE ALL TEAM ORRIN AND ORSON !!

 

[Dre]

I'm wondering if they're also using the GPR within the home to measure anomalies within the floors/foundation?
definitely thinking about all those measurements and photos taken both within and outside of the home. I'm wondering if there were some indications from neighbors or otherwise that they heard lots of digging or construction type activity as they moved into the home or any time thereafter.

What keeps hanging me up is this- cadaverine dogs (as they have told us) have not hit on a single thing. Those dogs have extremely keen senses, and cadaverine is very specific and potent. For Orson and Orrin to be possibly within the property (as LE actions seem to suspect) I believe they had to wrap up/contain them well and pretty quickly so that no cadaverine could later escape and be detected. This to me indicates some premeditation, supplies and a plan in place.

if this isn't the case, I hope they will use the cadaver dogs to search any and all working vehicles that the family had access to for a long span of months..

Even in her live last night, Tricia said this is sounding a lot bigger and convoluted than we may be thinking it is, which leads back to the idea of the boys possibly being sold. I still hold that as a possible theory, but its horrifying and conspiratory on a level that my brain just can't comprehend well.
moo

 

[MsBetsy]

The biological family is doing way more than the adoptive family is . THAT is beyond strange to me.

MOO

Speaking of strange, I think I figured out why members were saying it was interesting that the NAACP president was there.

The woman who appeared in the video yesterday was highly critical of police. She said they have not been on the case and that LE stated, "the BPD have not didn't search here or the previous residence because they are not assigned here." She went on to say that people were looking at them strange and were just watching them search. Then she questioned why there were so many threats and secrets going around. She then said, "The police stated they came out and searched. We have not seen ANY police officers out here, or at the Casa Lova location. We have video of the police stating they are not on this case." Then she went on about how the FBI is not enough, they need more people like the US Marshals, and if they can't handle it, we need more, we need answers."

One reason the NAACP gets involved is when they feel LE is not dedicating enough time to the investigation or the case doesn't get enough media attention. In the recent case of the murder of Quawan Charles a few of their attorneys got involved right away and spoke publicly about the indifference toward the humanity of black children and said the "racial disparities in missing child cases are staggering."

So I think this was what the woman was trying to get at and possibly why some think the NAACP involved.

However, it's pretty clear that the NAACP doesn't feel this way, otherwise they would have already made a statement. The bio cousin who spoke at the candle lit service was much more rational. I think the NAACP president was there simply to show support. They have an endless amount of resources, including attorneys and probably PI's, as well.

I don't know why I didn't think of this last night, I think I was exhausted!

Also, the bio cousin explained why they were holding the event there. She said it was the last place the kids lived before they moved to Cal City.

Imo

 

[GeorgiaRai]

ETA: what I mean by that is, just because the media isn't covering everything they're doing, doesn't meant they aren't doing anything. Obviously I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt due to victim/family friendly TOS here, but in reality, I don't think any of us actually know what the adoptive family is doing.

THIS! Only if we judge by public appearances alone can we say the birth-mom's relatives are "doing more". We have no idea who all is privately being cooperative with LE, offering information, following instructions, providing photos, even grieving/panicking.

The parents may be guilty of harming and hiding these precious boys, but if they're innocent, I don't blame them at all for avoiding publicity. If anyone here followed the cases of Harley Dilly or Paighton Houston, you know how innocent parents & friends can be hated, attacked and outright accused of murder all across social media - none of which helped find their loved one.

Also, I feel that if LE wanted more pictures of the boys circulated, and the parents couldn't/wouldn't provide them, LE could put a call out to the public (I believe this happened in the Vallow case). I'm much more concerned about WHY it appears LE doesn't think more pictures would be helpful (horrifying thought) than I am with how many pics the parents may or may not have taken, or why they aren't sharing them with directly with the public.

JMO.

 

[Rachelj1]

I'm wondering if they're also using the GPR within the home to measure anomalies within the floors/foundation?
definitely thinking about all those measurements and photos taken both within and outside of the home. I'm wondering if there were some indications from neighbors or otherwise that they heard lots of digging or construction type activity as they moved into the home or any time thereafter.

What keeps hanging me up is this- cadaverine dogs (as they have told us) have not hit on a single thing. Those dogs have extremely keen senses, and cadaverine is very specific and potent. For Orson and Orrin to be possibly within the property (as LE actions seem to suspect) I believe they had to wrap up/contain them well and pretty quickly so that no cadaverine could later escape and be detected. This to me indicates some premeditation, supplies and a plan in place.

if this isn't the case, I hope they will use the cadaver dogs to search any and all working vehicles that the family had access to for a long span of months..

Even in her live last night, Tricia said this is sounding a lot bigger and convoluted than we may be thinking it is, which leads back to the idea of the boys possibly being sold. I still hold that as a possible theory, but its horrifying and conspiratory on a level that my brain just can't comprehend well.
moo

I need to watch Tricias live!!!

 

[Number8]

Speaking of strange, I think I figured out why members were saying it was interesting that the NAACP president was there.

The woman who appeared in the video yesterday was highly critical of police. She said they have not been on the case and that LE stated, "the BPD have not didn't search here or the previous residence because they are not assigned here." She went on to say that people were looking at them strange and were just watching them search. Then she questioned why there were so many threats and secrets going around. She then said, "The police stated they came out and searched. We have not seen ANY police officers out here, or at the Casa Lova location. We have video of the police stating they are not on this case." Then she went on about how the FBI is not enough, they need more people like the US Marshals, and if they can't handle it, we need more, we need answers."

One reason the NAACP gets involved is when they feel LE is not dedicating enough time to the investigation or the case doesn't get enough media attention. In the recent case of the murder of Quawan Charles a few of their attorneys got involved right away and spoke publicly about the indifference toward the humanity of black children and said the "racial disparities in missing child cases are staggering."

So I think this was what the woman was trying to get at and possibly why some think the NAACP involved.

However, it's pretty clear that the NAACP doesn't feel this way, otherwise they would have already made a statement. The bio cousin who spoke at the candle lit service was much more rational. I think the NAACP president was there simply to show support. They have an endless amount of resources, including attorneys and probably PI's, as well.

I don't know why I didn't think of this last night, I think I was exhausted!

Also, the bio cousin explained why they were holding the event there. She said it was the last place the kids lived before they moved to Cal City.

Imo

Good points! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

 

[Peppery]

I'm curious, do we have confirmation that the pics on the missing poster are old? They do appear younger than their stated ages but without confirmation of the date taken, we just dont know.

 

[PommyMommy]

FEB 3, 2021
Community vigil and prayer held for missing California City boys, Orrin and Orson West

RW, biological cousin

 

[mzufall]

I'm not sure how much help it would be, but does anybody know if the PD or FBI have a profiler working the case? I apologize if it was mentioned previously. I get sucked into so many cases that sometimes, I forget what was mentioned and where...

 

[TLobo]

Can't like this enough. As a former Special Education teacher and counselor, I was always surprised by the high percentage of children in my classes that were adopted, or in foster care.

And how many of those same children had more social and emotional issues that impacted their lives. Most of these kids don't turn 18 and go to college. It is often a lifelong commitment to helping them. Many end up in group homes.

Just a quick note that, at least in the state where I worked as an Early Intervention speech-language pathologist (prior to having my own kids), every child between the ages of birth and 3 years old* who entered into the CPS system, whether temporary or long-term foster home, received a developmental evaluation covering all 5 areas of development (cognitive, communication, social-emotional, motor, self-help/adaptive). We'd typically be pretty surprised when there was a CAPTA referral child who was not eligible for early childhood special education services. We'd see kids later diagnosed with PTSD, FASD, attachment disorders, long-lasting issues from drug use in utero, etc.

I can think of 4!! sets of brothers on my caseload who, like these little ones, were right around a year apart in age, bio moms were a complete mess (more so than O&O's bio mom appears to be!), drugs, bio history of mental health, multiple kids removed from moms' care. Each of them, a complete disaster in terms of social-emotional development due to neglect very early in life. I can't help but project those experiences onto my thoughts about O&O, even though I know they're not the same kids that I worked with. My experience (+ TW's "rambunctious" comment, +bio mom's not-WS-approved explanations of why she lost custody) leads me to imagine that O&O may have had difficult behaviors that TW & JW were not equipped to handle. Possibly nowhere near potty trained, disordered sleep, high activity level. My speculation ends there, though, as I cannot think of a sufficient explanation for what would result in both boys being injured/killed. I have tossed around the idea of exorcism or some other mystical/"religious" intervention gone wrong, but then I haven't seen TW & JW linked to any such groups, MSM or not.

All MOO.

ETA: Oops, forgot my *. *I don't know about preschool or elementary-aged kids' eligibility for evaluation, but that would likely be based on perceived need. 0-3 is automatic eligibility for eval.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Just a quick note that, at least in the state where I worked as an Early Intervention speech-language pathologist (prior to having my own kids), every child between the ages of birth and 3 years old* who entered into the CPS system, whether temporary or long-term foster home, received a developmental evaluation covering all 5 areas of development (cognitive, communication, social-emotional, motor, self-help/adaptive). We'd typically be pretty surprised when there was a CAPTA referral child who was not eligible for early childhood special education services. We'd see kids later diagnosed with PTSD, FASD, attachment disorders, long-lasting issues from drug use in utero, etc.

I can think of 4!! sets of brothers on my caseload who, like these little ones, were right around a year apart in age, bio moms were a complete mess (more so than O&O's bio mom appears to be!), drugs, bio history of mental health, multiple kids removed from moms' care. Each of them, a complete disaster in terms of social-emotional development due to neglect very early in life. I can't help but project those experiences onto my thoughts about O&O, even though I know they're not the same kids that I worked with. My experience (+ TW's "rambunctious" comment, +bio mom's not-WS-approved explanations of why she lost custody) leads me to imagine that O&O may have had difficult behaviors that TW & JW were not equipped to handle. Possibly nowhere near potty trained, disordered sleep, high activity level. My speculation ends there, though, as I cannot think of a sufficient explanation for what would result in both boys being injured/killed. I have tossed around the idea of exorcism or some other mystical/"religious" intervention gone wrong, but then I haven't seen TW & JW linked to any such groups, MSM or not.

All MOO.

Thank you for your post! It is so valuable to have someone with your background and experience on the thread. Your comments reinforce the cascading effect of drug use, and the implications on society and our most vulnerable citizens.
It also reinforces that adopting/fostering children who were born addicted or who have other needs requires special skills, and certainly skills that can't be taught in 12 hours of foster/adoption classes. Ridiculous. Children should never be a "business". As many of you have pointed out, this case might just be the impetus for inspection of this broken system. I know many of you are like me, and it makes your blood boil. This is our tax money, and it's NOT being used effectively. The foster/adoption system needs greater accountability to the public. If those in charge can not improve the system and safety of children and other vulnerable citizens, they need to step aside and let others vigorously pursue improvement and accountability.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[TLobo]

It also reinforces that adopting/fostering children who were born addicted or who have other needs requires special skills, and certainly skills that can't be taught in 12 hours of foster/adoption classes. Ridiculous. Children should never be a "business".

I mean, sometimes I don't feel like I'm completely equipped to parent my own (developmentally typical [I mean advanced, of course], substance free, etc. etc.) small children. There's no perfect situation for kids who start off so disadvantaged, but ill-equipped foster parents who think it's an easy way to make a quick buck or a grand, are arguably not a whole lot better than their bio family situations. My eyes were certainly opened while working at that job. MOO.

 

[stattlich1]

O&O may have had difficult behaviors that TW & JW were not equipped to handle.

I liked your post. Having worked in residential treatment for 5 years, then in a local high school for 20 years, with "at-risk" youth (I've come to believe they ALL are at risk at some time or another), your thoughts led me to recall the cognitive, emotional, and social abilities scale, wherein, if one were to have a low level of each, it would stand to reason how one reacts to stressors in their daily life often differs from one who would be possessed of a high level of same.

The curve of explosion, at it's peak, may include, among various things, a vulgar verbal request, a verbal personal attack, or an aggressive, or worse, assaultive act.

The stimulus/response cycle results in appropriate responses throughout the day, over and over, yet it only takes one time for the response to become violent.

Higher cognitive/emotional/social skill set, for the most part, minimizes the incidence of the aggressive/violent response.

Please don't hammer me for I know there are exceptions to every rule. Generally speaking here.

And so, is it not often the case, that frustration is handled differently by different persons, yes?

Speculation as it may be, I have opinions on the matter. Might something have occurred, with the adopted parents, or a loved one, or family member, who was charged with the care of these two boys, might the punishment of some behavior have been excessive? Who knows?

Mix in a little covid lockdown, home schooling requirements, possible economic challenges, and maybe even a little drug use/abuse, and where might that take the wandering mind?

I do know that many of the families that I dealt with over the years were tight. Real tight.

As I've said before, we either have a kidnapping, a murder, or a sale. Possibly a combination thereof.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Even in her live last night, Tricia said this is sounding a lot bigger and convoluted than we may be thinking it is, which leads back to the idea of the boys possibly being sold. I still hold that as a possible theory, but its horrifying and conspiratory on a level that my brain just can't comprehend well.
moo

RSBM

I'm curious, what specificly leads anyone to believe the parents might have sold these kids?

 

[Inquisitive2018]

On a side note I was watching the news this morning an one of the children hospitals in Ottawa Canada is reporting double the amount of young children with trauma and fractures coming in. Another report indicates the mental health of kids is getting worse I do believe that alot of parents cannot handle having their kids 24/7 . There is daycare, there are schools, caregivers, babysitters , support workers for those with specials needs to assist but with covid those resources are reduced or have disappeared and not everyone has what it takes , coupled that with loss of income and if you are already prone to abuse, it is a disaster for our kids

 

[LucyOso]

I mean, sometimes I don't feel like I'm completely equipped to parent my own (developmentally typical [I mean advanced, of course], substance free, etc. etc.) small children. There's no perfect situation for kids who start off so disadvantaged, but ill-equipped foster parents who think it's an easy way to make a quick buck or a grand, are arguably not a whole lot better than their bio family situations. My eyes were certainly opened while working at that job. MOO.

I absolutely agree. It's a very tough job. They may or may not be equipped. One of my friends was a very involved in the Case Family Programs for 30 years. They always selected the highest risk kids. The outcomes were never predictable. I have seen amazing outcomes and shocking outcomes. Sometimes people with good intentions end up in really bad situations trying to do "the right thing". It's not always about the quick buck, though that's incentive, it's a bit more complicated. We all like to do the "right" thing, until we get over our heads. We have all been there to some degree.

The sad reality is for neurotypical and not neurotypical kids, you never know personalities, mental health, behavioral problems, until they start "growing into them". Most issues really dont start presenting until they are getting closer to school age. Sometimes getting into a stable environment can have a paradoxical effect on children once they lose their sense of norm. Chaos and abuse, can become a predictable normal pattern, so take that away and kids no longer have a sense of normal. Once they reach an age where they can compare or start learning their coping behaviors aren't always appropriate, it can have devastating impact on the sense of self. This can magnify issues. After a period of adjustment, some kids will find that new norm.

Some kids are malleable and don't have issues adjusting. Some children never adjust. Some kids have concurrent conditions from in utero exposure or genetics, some don't. You can do "everything right" as a parent or "everything wrong" and you never know. Causation should not be confused with correlation. Correlation should not be confused with coincidence. Thinking out loud.

 

[LucyOso]

On a side note I was watching the news this morning an one of the children hospitals in Ottawa Canada is reporting double the amount of young children with trauma and fractures coming in. Another report indicates the mental health of kids is getting worse I do believe that alot of parents cannot handle having their kids 24/7 . There is daycare, there are schools, caregivers, babysitters , support workers for those with specials needs to assist but with covid those resources are reduced or have disappeared and not everyone has what it takes , coupled that with loss of income and if you are already prone to abuse, it is a disaster for our kids

Great point! Mental Health issues are at unprecedented rates with Covid-19 right now. We can all relate.

 

[NCHydrangea]

I’ve gone through many scenarios trying to make sense of this whole situation. An accident just doesn’t add up, for me. The accident would have had to have happened to both boys. Animal attack, hot car, bathtub, the boys getting into something like cleaning solutions, etc......even abduction, but it happened to both of them, not just one of them.

Also, what type of accident could have happened where the AP felt that it was a better idea to concoct a “running away” storyline than to call 911 with the truth? That’s why I’m thinking that maybe this wasn’t an accident.

Another thing, what’s the point of moving out of an apartment into the suburbs, but not letting the kids out to play in the fenced back yard? So many contradictions.

Moo