Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[Snoopster]

We don't know who is claiming that camping is common and popular on Canadian highways and pullouts. We've also read that BC highways are full of hitch hikers - a rather surprising claim given the Highway of Tears hitch hiking murders.

I don't really believe claims that either of the above is a common and acceptable practice, but, if it is, what can be done to increase awareness that it is unsafe and a violation of BC highway and Parks Canada regulations?

Call me naive, because I admit I'm naive.

I still believe that is common for 'free spirits' to camp along the side of the road. Regarding the Highway of Tears, I believe those victims were single, indigenous women, who were hitchhiking. I don't think men or couples camping in their vehicles overnight could relate....AND...that highway was far from where this incident happened.

 

[srper2]

It's true that law is only enforced when someone in authority sees the violation, which may be why some people choose to ignore law - perhaps thinking that if they can get away with it, why not. Some, but not all, pullouts have signage stating "no camping."

I'm wondering whether it is an awareness, or willful violation, problem. If it is awareness, improved messaging can be provided at borders and national parks. However, if is something different, then it is far more difficult to address.

For example, we know that hitch hiking and roadside camping stopped in Australia after the Belanglo State Forest murders in New South Wales, yet that knowledge did not transfer to the same practices in other countries. Where is the disconnect?

Hitch hiking in that area slowed down tremendously at the time, but roadside camping is happening all up the South and East Coast of Australia and inland as well (I haven't driven up the West Coast, so can't comment!). I drive up and down the coast highways and the inland way frequently and more roadside pull-ins with toilets, bins and bbq's are being made every year. On both major highways from Melbourne through to Canberra, Sydney, Brisbane, Cairns and all the way up, there are stops for people to camp, also through to Dubbo, Lightning Ridge and all the way up. Many have signs saying that you cannot camp for more than one night (though people still do!), to keep the spots open for people travelling through! There is an advertising campaign reminding people to stop and get some sleep on long journeys and the roadside stops provide the place to do that. During peak holidays, volunteer groups tow food vans to many stops to provide free drinks and biscuits to encourage people to stop and take a break/have a sleep to try to reduce road accidents - you can look online to see which stops will have free drinks etc. when planning your trip (I forgot to add in to beware, you have to brave/avoid the vicious ant nests that often appear in these pull outs though)! This is why I was surprised when in a previous thread someone said that stopping overnight in Canada was discouraged, as it seems like it would be neccessary, given the long distances.

 

[srper2]

Perhaps kicking them out of their respective homes was the attempt to make them do something (and they did - they left). You definitely can get teens out of your house, if you want to.

Also, you can control their spending in so many ways. Phones and Steam games cost money. New games cost money. No parent has to pay for those things. And no custodial person (grandmothers included) have to permit those things to be used in the house. Impossible for them to play those games at the library, btw (computers aren't good enough).

So there's a lot that parents can do, if willing, to reshape behavior. Of course, if you're already scared of the kid(s), that's a bit different.

Lots of my students are under a "you go to school and getting passing grades or you're out of here" policy from their parents. Many of them go homeless, temporarily or permanently, due to this. They learn to cope (and in many cases, decide to stay in school and end up taking that minimum wage job they refused the year before).

Oddly, so many students who are more or less on their own...do very very well in school, even with a past track record that's poor, once the limits are set and once they realize what it's really like out there.

There are also students who must attend their psychiatric sessions and take their meds, or they are going to be out of the parental home. It often takes a brush with the law, though, for them to really get this.

It's hard, because the years from about 17-25 are the peak years for onset of schizophrenia, schizoaffective, major depressive disorder, and bipolar. It's hard for family members to see it, sometimes. Schizotypal disorder can be and is masked by video games (and in some inpatient units where I've worked, video games are used as today's panacea for schizophrenics - television used to do the trick).

Wow, this sounds like parenting advice from the 1940's, and we are still surviving the consequences of that. No wonder these kids need psychiatric help and medication to conform.

 

[otto]

Call me naive, because I admit I'm naive.

I still believe that is common for 'free spirits' to camp along the side of the road. Regarding the Highway of Tears, I believe those victims were single, indigenous women, who were hitchhiking. I don't think men or couples camping in their vehicles overnight could relate....AND...that highway was far from where this incident happened.

Some indigenous and some non-indigenous hitch hikers were murdered on Highway of Tears. The murders have nothing to do with race. All hitch hikers are at risk, so it is foolish for anyone to think that hitch hiking in BC is a good idea.

In the last month, 3 free-spirits in camper vans parked alone and outside of campgrounds have been murdered : two in Canada, one in NZ. They are not the first and they won't be the last.

 

[Esprite]

For a young couple not familiar with remote BC roads, driving a twenty-five year-old van probably seemed a sweet romantic endeavour. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a very poor choice. May they rest in peace.

 

[Errrr]

Opinion - but I think it is very unfortunate that free-spirit travellers, like this tourist couple and the Australian man killed in New Zealand, don't seem to understand the reasons that camping is not allowed at highway pullouts or on the side of the highway. The reasons are twofold. One is to protect the environment, and the other is to ensure the safety of travellers.

We've extensively discussed what parents and society needs to do to increase awareness of disturbed children, but what can be done to increase awareness in travellers to make responsible choices?

Maybe their van wasn’t broken down? Maybe they just said that to get away with camping there.

 

[Errrr]

This is a really good point. I have raised teenagers, we can try to encourage them to do things, we can give them options, we can make them appointments or whatever, but we can't make them do anything. So who knows, maybe someone did try. JMO

Isn’t that why they were in alternative school?

 

[kaen]

Perhaps kicking them out of their respective homes was the attempt to make them do something (and they did - they left). You definitely can get teens out of your house, if you want to.

Also, you can control their spending in so many ways. Phones and Steam games cost money. New games cost money. No parent has to pay for those things. And no custodial person (grandmothers included) have to permit those things to be used in the house. Impossible for them to play those games at the library, btw (computers aren't good enough).

So there's a lot that parents can do, if willing, to reshape behavior. Of course, if you're already scared of the kid(s), that's a bit different.

Lots of my students are under a "you go to school and getting passing grades or you're out of here" policy from their parents. Many of them go homeless, temporarily or permanently, due to this. They learn to cope (and in many cases, decide to stay in school and end up taking that minimum wage job they refused the year before).

Oddly, so many students who are more or less on their own...do very very well in school, even with a past track record that's poor, once the limits are set and once they realize what it's really like out there.

There are also students who must attend their psychiatric sessions and take their meds, or they are going to be out of the parental home. It often takes a brush with the law, though, for them to really get this.

It's hard, because the years from about 17-25 are the peak years for onset of schizophrenia, schizoaffective, major depressive disorder, and bipolar. It's hard for family members to see it, sometimes. Schizotypal disorder can be and is masked by video games (and in some inpatient units where I've worked, video games are used as today's panacea for schizophrenics - television used to do the trick).

These issues are often familial issues rather than just the adolescent's issue. If we are trying to work with young people to launch, it is important to make sure they have the skills to launch rather than having to fly without them. The dire consequences of so many young people going homeless with the idea that they will "learn" are real. I have students who have deeper psychological issues based on their time on the streets-- much more detrimental after the trauma of living on the streets with doing what they needed to do to survive. If only setting limits was the answer for my students but it seems to not be.

Many students need much more psychological support within school with individual counseling and group counseling. Yes, I agree about disorders popping up but would also say that by building an alliance it is often easier to get young people to be compliant about interventions--pharmacological and more, which includes staying in school and getting the skills needed for a productive life.

 

[LadyL]

Well that's great in theory but it doesn't happen like that and is not enforced regularly in an area that is hours from the nearest RCMP station. We have similar legislation and I've seen vehicles sit on the side of the hwy for a week or more. And this is within one hour of the RCMP. So you can link to all the regs you want but it doesn't reflect reality. It's not a priority for police.

These areas do not become toilets, most of the pullouts have garbages and are pretty clean for the most part. BC in particular has garbages all over the place, I'm always surprised at how many there are at roadside pullouts. Many also have outhouses. In the pullout by my place, which over the summer probably has on average of 300-500 people stay overnight, I've never seen garbage on the ground. It has two outhouses. So again, reality is much different than what you see on paper.

[bbm]

wow I must have the wrong idea about what a pullout is - I thought it was just a little half circle dirt road off the highway with enough room for just a few cars, a picnic table, and a garbage can or two

 

[otto]

[bbm]

wow I must have the wrong idea about what a pullout is - I thought it was just a little half circle dirt road off the highway with enough room for just a few cars, a picnic table, and a garbage can or two

That's exactly what I think when I used the word pullout - a point of interest pit stop between two destination points.

 

[Gina20]

The key ring -- I hate to bring up the key ring again, and what was on it.

In the case of one of Canada's youngest serial killers, a northern B.C. man who was 20 years old at the time of his arrest, a Leatherman multi-tool was one of the murder weapons.

'I did not murder anybody': B.C. trial hears recording of alleged serial killer

Accused serial killer had 'system' of slaying: Crown

 

[catdctr]

Hi all

I haven't posted before. This obviously is bothering so many people as to motive including me!

I think these 2 guys saw an abandoned van on the side of highway at night.
They decided to loot it. I doubt it occurred to them that anyone was in the van.

I don't think they meant to go on mission but they did have gun or guns I think. Doubt Lucas had one but possible.

The couple were probably sleeping.
The pair opened side or front door.
Lucas woke up and came to door without shoes.
Bryer and Kam were surprised but had a gun and decided to threaten robbery. Lucas fought back. They shot him in abdomen as angle upwards from road fits. Chynna heard all woke up tried to put on shoe at back of camper. The 2 entered van saw her and shot multiple times as freaked out and not experienced with real guns which blew out back window as well as her. Escalation. Botched robbery.

Rcmp will be able to determine this from van inspection. Surely they can find out where guns came from. They simply have no obligation to release these details until they have done every angle analysis.

After the shootings there was likely debate between 2 of them which led the pair to drag couple out of van onto side of road. Likely thinking they would drive van away. Van didn't start. I doubt they were posed. Likely dragged by one arm overone of the pair's shoulder and bodies rolled that way.

They the pair split scene taking as many bits of identification as possible. Missed her passport and left most of couples belongings. Likely nighttime.

The pair then spent 3 days somewhere freaking out and plotting how to get out of this meanwhile listening to all news on radio.

Drove north and west and then south to dease lake (evasive action). Opportunistically they found another poor guy (Len)at side of road. Opportunity to dispose of evidence of their car and take another one. Hey they had already killed people so why not and had 3 days of desperate rationalization talks on board. They were desperate to flee and try to evade capture.

The pair did this deed and headed east. Whether they went back up and passed original crime scene or went south noone knows.

I doubt they thought about possibility of being caught on camera at coop store in Saskatchewan. But likely heard about this on radio after which they were named as suspects.


They continued to drive east and north.
Unfortunately they didn't understand that past Gillam 280 highway (which would have led them west and then south first before going east into Ontario) they took 290. This road ends at Bush.
They ran out of gas.

Knowing they couldn't go back they decided to take their chances in Bush hoping to cross river or something.
They probably burned car to get rid of evidence or more likely in hopes that people would think they got another car and split.

Once in deep Bush they likely soon learned that survival in bc and west coast was really easy compared to Manitoba. West coast has nice tall trees cedar paths and no bugs.
Maybe or not they tried to cross river in boat and failed.
Elected to then kill themselves as they saw no way out.
All of this is just my opinion.

I don't think anything was premeditated here but certainly actions of a desperate pair who thought they were smart and thought they had no other way.
They certainly were polite to guy getting them out of ditch. They didn't feel the need to kill him. He was helping them. Polite and saying sorry to the patrol who waived them over for alcohol checks.
Sad all around.
I am not defending these men. I just think this is plausible.
Looking forward to replies.

 

[MistyWaters]

Hitch hiking in that area slowed down tremendously at the time, but roadside camping is happening all up the South and East Coast of Australia and inland as well (I haven't driven up the West Coast, so can't comment!). I drive up and down the coast highways and the inland way frequently and more roadside pull-ins with toilets, bins and bbq's are being made every year. On both major highways from Melbourne through to Canberra, Sydney, Brisbane, Cairns and all the way up, there are stops for people to camp, also through to Dubbo, Lightning Ridge and all the way up. Many have signs saying that you cannot camp for more than one night (though people still do!), to keep the spots open for people travelling through! There is an advertising campaign reminding people to stop and get some sleep on long journeys and the roadside stops provide the place to do that. During peak holidays, volunteer groups tow food vans to many stops to provide free drinks and biscuits to encourage people to stop and take a break/have a sleep to try to reduce road accidents - you can look online to see which stops will have free drinks etc. when planning your trip (I forgot to add in to beware, you have to brave/avoid the vicious ant nests that often appear in these pull outs though)! This is why I was surprised when in a previous thread someone said that stopping overnight in Canada was discouraged, as it seems like it would be neccessary, given the long distances.

I think the discussion related to parking on the shoulder of a highway versus stopping at a rest stops or pullout. Rest stops are common along highways all over Canada and yes, sometimes people sleep overnight in their vehicles.

I’d feel comfortable sleeping at a rest stop because it’s a designated stopping spot. But just me, no, not spending the night on the shoulder of a highway unless my vehicle broke down because I also know vehicles parked on the shoulder are often assumed to be abandoned and become a target for robbery. The mindset really makes no sense but it’s the same as if someone comes across something discarded and they assume its free for rummaging through it, to take what they want. As for vehicles left on the side of the road, the owner comes back later upon arranging for a tow and finds it’s been broken into.

This is why I wonder if L&C stayed the night on the side of the highway because van repairs were required and into the evening hours, their best option was certainly to wait until morning.

 

[catdctr]

I think the discussion related to parking on the shoulder of a highway versus stopping at a rest stops or pullout. Rest stops are common along highways all over Canada and yes, sometimes people sleep overnight in their vehicles.

I’d feel comfortable sleeping at a rest stop because it’s a designated stopping spot. But just me, no, not spending the night on the shoulder of a highway unless my vehicle broke down because I also know vehicles parked on the shoulder are often assumed to be abandoned and become a target for robbery. The mindset really makes no sense but it’s the same as if someone comes across something discarded and they assume its free for rummaging through it, to take what they want. As for vehicles left on the side of the road, the owner comes back later upon arranging for a tow and finds it’s been broken into.

This is why I wonder if L&C stayed the night on the side of the highway because van repairs were required and into the evening hours, their best option was certainly to wait until morning.

Yes I agree.
This is Canadian camping.
Lots of people do this.

 

[otto]

I think the discussion related to parking on the shoulder of a highway versus stopping at a rest stops or pullout. Rest stops are common along highways all over Canada and yes, sometimes people sleep overnight in their vehicles.

I’d feel comfortable sleeping at a rest stop because it’s a designated stopping spot. But just me, no, not spending the night on the shoulder of a highway unless my vehicle broke down because I also know vehicles parked on the shoulder are often assumed to be abandoned and become a target for robbery. The mindset really makes no sense but it’s the same as if someone comes across something discarded and they assume its free for rummaging through it, to take what they want. As for vehicles left on the side of the road, the owner comes back later upon arranging for a tow and finds it’s been broken into.

This is why I wonder if L&C stayed the night on the side of the highway because van repairs were required and into the evening hours, their best option was certainly to wait until morning.

I agree. They were parked on the side of the highway at 3:30PM and they decided to spend the night. It was a fateful decision.

 

[LadyL]

That's exactly what I think when I used the word pullout - a point of interest pit stop between two destination points.

google wasn't very helpful to me

 

[SteveP]

Maybe their van wasn’t broken down? Maybe they just said that to get away with camping there.

Pretty sure that one of the people who stopped to offer assistance was a mechanic. IIRC correctly, he felt that the engine was flooded and they would be on their way after a while, which seems to imply that perhaps Lucas attempted to start it while the mechanic was there. Also, to whom, other than a police officer, would LF even need to attempt to lie about the condition of the van to, in order to get away with staying there overnight? I truly doubt anyone else cared. And if they had, perhaps they would have, or did, call the police. If so, LE apparently did not consider it a high enough priority to respond to the call. JMO

 

[Errrr]

google wasn't very helpful to me

I’ll bet you saw a lot of couches.

 

[Snoopster]

I'm finding this thread a bit of a 'blaming the victim' for pulling off to the side of the road. I'm going to guess that it's rare to be attacked at the side of the road, based on the number of people who do so. I might be wrong.

I'm hearing people say, "who would ever pull over?" "Everyone knows it's a risk." But truly how often does it happen relative to how often people pull over?

Just curious.

 

[otto]

google wasn't very helpful to me

The Canadian highway roadside pullout



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