Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #79

[Satchie]

I have been livid since early morning. A FB post casually asked if you had unlimited $, where would you go. I usually don't answer such things, but today I posted I would not go anywhere, would not fly, would not stay in a hotel or take a group tour. Well, a return post laughed and told me I needed to get out and that it was safe.

Well, little does this person know I have bicycled 6100 miles in a year (not this year), ridden self-contained solo half-way across the US, hiked the West Coast Trail, one of the hardest in North America, and hiked part of the Appalachian Trail. I have also canoe raced and kayaked. I have visited every state and have biked in 13 countries. AND, I need to get out???

And, it's safe? Minnesota is reachinging 2000 deaths. On Sep 17 there were 909 new cases. It's safe? Where do these people get information?

I am still bicycling - around my state in areas of less traffic, not in cities. I am hiking. BUT, no, I will not fly, will not stay in a hotel, will not eat inside at a restaurant, will not go to a theater or church or a party until I am certain it is safe, which I feel it is not right now.

I agree with you about not travelling at this time, and I prefer not to even think about travel until this is all over, and then see how I feel about it.

But it's not good for your health to be livid! IMO, some people use denial a lot, get easily bored, enjoy engaging in fantasies about things that will supposedly make them happy...it's just human nature.

There's hardly anywhere welcoming Americans these days anyway, except the Caribbean and good ol' Mexico (and Belarus!). I will be watching keenly to see whether people are really willing to risk it, and whether it will actually be any fun, considering the inevitable anxiety.

 

[tresir2012]

BBM


BBM

@tresir2012 It would have been wonderful if almost half of our 200,000 deaths (those that occurred in the U.S. nursing homes) had been prevented. No one is disputing that many/most of those deaths should not have happened. We would still feel awful about the remaining 100,00 citizens lost outside the nursing homes, and it is still an enormous loss of life.

Several posts back, in the previous thread, you disputed the word “enormous” regarding the 200,000 the U.S. has lost. You focused only on the number being small compared to our population, which of course it is. In my reply to you (post 21), partially quoted below, I pointed out that it is the short time frame in which those 200,000 individuals died that makes the number “enormous” in its impact on U.S. citizens and the world. Even “only” 100,000 deaths would still have been an enormous number given the short time frame of seven months compared to wars and conflicts lasting many years, if you look at the graphic I linked in my post.

I don’t think we will ever know how many of the 200,000 deaths in the U.S. could have been prevented, other than better management of the nursing home mess. Certainly, it is now very clear to me that better management overall and sooner could have prevented thousands of deaths beyond those who died in nursing homes.

However, my focus in my reply to you regarding your dispute of the word “enormous” is solely focused on what that word means in the emotional impact of losing 200,000 individuals in a short span of seven months, not how many were preventable or what percentage of our population they are. I think most would agree that this is an enormous loss of life in that sense, as is the number lost in the world, which is now very close to all the wars lasting many years shown in the graphic in the link below.
JMO

Do you have a link to the post of mine to which you are replying. It would help the context of what you are stating. I was explaining that in terms of population it was not enormous. The care home deaths, many being investigated, are a large amount of that count, 42% in the link I previously provided and can provide again if possible. Even that figure (84k) is enormous, in my mind so I clearly think the same about 200k, as I also do about the UK count of 41k.
I explained that our deaths per million put us at 10th and 11th with Sweden at 12th and Spain at 5th. I certainly have not minimised any deaths in any country but the tragedy of the care homes is uppermost in my mind as it has been our biggest failing across the national boundaries, and indeed many of those who suffered and died are those who lived through wars such as WW2, Korea and Vietnam so it is even more devastating to me because of that failing to those veterans from those wars. I hope that answers the points in your post.

 

[MrX]

I have been livid since early morning. A FB post casually asked if you had unlimited $, where would you go. I usually don't answer such things, but today I posted I would not go anywhere, would not fly, would not stay in a hotel or take a group tour. Well, a return post laughed and told me I needed to get out and that it was safe.

Well, little does this person know I have bicycled 6100 miles in a year (not this year), ridden self-contained solo half-way across the US, hiked the West Coast Trail, one of the hardest in North America, and hiked part of the Appalachian Trail. I have also canoe raced and kayaked. I have visited every state and have biked in 13 countries. AND, I need to get out???

And, it's safe? Minnesota is reachinging 2000 deaths. On Sep 17 there were 909 new cases. It's safe? Where do these people get information?

I am still bicycling - around my state in areas of less traffic, not in cities. I am hiking. BUT, no, I will not fly, will not stay in a hotel, will not eat inside at a restaurant, will not go to a theater or church or a party until I am certain it is safe, which I feel it is not right now.

That is an important lesson, for those of us that do feel safe. I'm involved with a weekly musical get together that has lost many "regulars" who still do not feel safe. One gentleman said pretty much what you did when I commented on him still being "locked up." He had found ways to get out and stay active, just not with other people. Some of the other missing regulars have come up in conversation and I need to be mindful to not be judgmental in my comments.

The guy I mentioned actually did start coming back - the first time he was shocked to see people hanging around like it was 2019 - he reaction was like everything and everyone was radioactive. The second time he was more relaxed, and the third time he stuck around and ordered a beer. He wasn't back this week. I suspect his wife allowed him to come back under very strict conditions and by week three it was clear that he had violated her trust.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Dying Windsor woman gets exemption, sees U.S. parents for final time

I am so glad they got to see each other. Jmo

 

[tresir2012]

Dupe deleted

 

[katydid23]

Well that is a better deal than a flight to nowhere IMO.

Right. But as cynical as I am, I imagine myself flying over there, and once I get there, I realise that many of the others who flew with me, brought the virus with them......and now we are all trapped in paradise...

 

[Trino]

That is an important lesson, for those of us that do feel safe. I'm involved with a weekly musical get together that has lost many "regulars" who still do not feel safe. One gentleman said pretty much what you did when I commented on him still being "locked up." He had found ways to get out and stay active, just not with other people. Some of the other missing regulars have come up in conversation and I need to be mindful to not be judgmental in my comments.

The guy I mentioned actually did start coming back - the first time he was shocked to see people hanging around like it was 2019 - he reaction was like everything and everyone was radioactive. The second time he was more relaxed, and the third time he stuck around and ordered a beer. He wasn't back this week. I suspect his wife allowed him to come back under very strict conditions and by week three it was clear that he had violated her trust.

We still have state coronavirus ordinances. People in Minnesota are required to wear a face covering in all indoor businesses and public indoor spaces, unless alone. Additionally, workers are required to wear a face covering when working outdoors in situations where social distancing cannot be maintained. Indoor occupant capacity is no more than 50% up to 250 persons. Party size limited to 4 persons, or 6 if all in one household. Required that patrons in bars are to be seated. Required reservations. Required for workers to wear masks at all times.

 

[10ofRods]

We're planning a trip. I know it sounds crazy. Public restrooms are the big issue, but I know it's highly unlikely to get CoVid while wearing a mask and goggles and spending less than 5 minutes in a place.

Then, we'll stay at an old school motel, that has separate ventilation for each room (we'll disinfect the ventilation equipment, plus we're bringing our own). The grounds are spacious, with trailheads immediately adjacent. Motel has CoVid measures in place - everyone is masked.

We'll disinfect the room, leave for a while, and then feel safe enough. I think. We may change our minds last minute if rates go up at our destination. It'll be a car trip, no public transport. We will need to gas up once in each direction. I've researched gas stations that have been reviewed by hundreds on Google - and am choosing the ones rated highest for cleanliness.

Half a mile away from the motel, away from any other civilization, is a lovely restaurant with widely spaced tables and it allows dogs - they even bring the dogs water bowls and treats. We will wear our masks when interacting with the server in any way.

But, it's still a month away and a lot can happen in a month...we are hoping to see a forest, feel some cool, less smoke-filled air...it's both hot and smokey where we are and very few places locally we'd feel safe dining out.

 

[10ofRods]

About that Chinese virologist:

This week, a group of scientists (international) published an article about how it would be impossible to tell whether CoVid was lab-created or not, unless a person was a direct eyewitness to that occurrence.

Then, they pointed out that this particular RNA-based virus is identical to one found in bats. The chances of a lab 'making' the same thing is something like 1 in several billion (or even lower).

Could a lab take that virus and modify it? Yes, but apparently no sign of that in the RNA signature either.

So, it would seem that this errant Chinese virologist is violating Twitter's policy about posting non-factual information about CoVid, as she has no similar research/scientific document to back her up.

We know that the Chinese lab had collected samples of the virus from bats in the first place. They didn't need to modify it - it's lethal as it is. Did they let it escape? Now, that's an interesting and scary question but very different than a medical lab, which is filled with doctors who themselves want to help others and not die themselves, somehow creating a monster virus on purpose (which is what she's claiming).

The alternate, wet market, theory is still in play - but now there are other theories since it may turn out that genetically, the ancestral strain was detected at an earlier point outside of China (in Europe). Eventually, we'll know, but it's going to be a long read when the story is finally told. I do expect that story within my lifetime (knocking on wood).

 

[Sundog]

Boris Johnson says UK 'seeing a second wave coming in' of coronavirus, claims it was 'inevitable'

 

[LadyL]

Idaho pastor who encouraged congregants to go maskless is in intensive care unit after contracting coronavirus

 

[Simply Southern]

Time to stock up again? The likelihood of empty shelves in a second coronavirus wave

in the picture in the article, it looks like all my favourite soups are left on the shelves lol

this surprises me:

For the worries about trick-or-treating during a pandemic, for example, people have so far been spending "unprecedented amounts" on Halloween candy and decorations, Maharaj says. (from the article linked)

Speaking of Halloween..... This is so cute, it's a candy shoot.

Dad creates contactless candy chute for Halloween trick-or-treaters during COVID-19 pandemic

 

[10ofRods]

Big story. In March there was a report that China was censoring Tiktok for coronavirus content, now it is going to be banned. This is the latest from the BBC about it . At the bottom of the article is a link to the March report, which I will also link below separately.

TikTok and WeChat: US to ban app downloads in 48 hours

Chinese app censored virus content since 1 Jan

I would like to point out that this ban is occurring entirely due to the actions of the Executive Branch and that the US lawmaking branch - and the Courts - are not involved. I believe this may end up in the pile of things that gets decided by Courts.

After delaying on the CoVid recovery bill for 2 months, two nights ago (IIRC), our Senate confirmed 30 new federal judges appointed, of course, by the WH.

Oddly, China is not the only nation to expect news media to change wording or not use certain combinations of words. But it is the only nation targeted in this recent move. It is the Chinese App WeChat that has. the censorship (just like China has a special deal with Google regarding certain Google searches).

TikTok was not the one censoring. It will remain available, as I understand it, if a person has already downloaded it. It's free and on App Store and for Android until Sunday.

China wasn't censoring TikTok and TikTok and WeChat are two different apps.

TikTok was invented by the founder of ByteDance, who owns the app and is Chinese. His Board of Directors and his investors are international - mainly from Anglophone nations. A big chunk is owned by the same group that owns Duolingo.

The alleged security issues would be similar across many apps - TikTok, if you recall, is the one that allowed teenagers from around the world to troll a campaign rally in OK.

So I wouldn't say "America is banning TikTok." There's enough time between now and when the app will be (supposedly) completely banned for the courts to way in. We have certain items in our Bill of Rights that may be at play here, at least in principle.

 

[tresir2012]

About that Chinese virologist:

This week, a group of scientists (international) published an article about how it would be impossible to tell whether CoVid was lab-created or not, unless a person was a direct eyewitness to that occurrence.

Then, they pointed out that this particular RNA-based virus is identical to one found in bats. The chances of a lab 'making' the same thing is something like 1 in several billion (or even lower).

Could a lab take that virus and modify it? Yes, but apparently no sign of that in the RNA signature either.

So, it would seem that this errant Chinese virologist is violating Twitter's policy about posting non-factual information about CoVid, as she has no similar research/scientific document to back her up.

We know that the Chinese lab had collected samples of the virus from bats in the first place. They didn't need to modify it - it's lethal as it is. Did they let it escape? Now, that's an interesting and scary question but very different than a medical lab, which is filled with doctors who themselves want to help others and not die themselves, somehow creating a monster virus on purpose (which is what she's claiming).

The alternate, wet market, theory is still in play - but now there are other theories since it may turn out that genetically, the ancestral strain was detected at an earlier point outside of China (in Europe). Eventually, we'll know, but it's going to be a long read when the story is finally told. I do expect that story within my lifetime (knocking on wood).

So I would be very interested to know exactly how Twitter verified it as non factual. Have you read anything about that?

I have read recently it was in sewage long before it was actually in China, so that is yet another opinion about the origin. I will find the article and link it.

ETA the sewage article. March 2019 in Barcelona was earliest it was detected.

Was coronavirus really in Europe in March 2019?

 

[Satchie]

We're planning a trip. I know it sounds crazy. Public restrooms are the big issue, but I know it's highly unlikely to get CoVid while wearing a mask and goggles and spending less than 5 minutes in a place.

Then, we'll stay at an old school motel, that has separate ventilation for each room (we'll disinfect the ventilation equipment, plus we're bringing our own). The grounds are spacious, with trailheads immediately adjacent. Motel has CoVid measures in place - everyone is masked.

We'll disinfect the room, leave for a while, and then feel safe enough. I think. We may change our minds last minute if rates go up at our destination. It'll be a car trip, no public transport. We will need to gas up once in each direction. I've researched gas stations that have been reviewed by hundreds on Google - and am choosing the ones rated highest for cleanliness.

Half a mile away from the motel, away from any other civilization, is a lovely restaurant with widely spaced tables and it allows dogs - they even bring the dogs water bowls and treats. We will wear our masks when interacting with the server in any way.

But, it's still a month away and a lot can happen in a month...we are hoping to see a forest, feel some cool, less smoke-filled air...it's both hot and smokey where we are and very few places locally we'd feel safe dining out.

Yes, I was thinking about travel by plane.

I went camping a couple of times this summer. Hand sanitizer before and after using the public washrooms, otherwise just as socially distanced as if I were at home - and really no cases in the community at that time.

Edited to add: and it was encouraged by our government to get out and enjoy the summer while we can, cause it's probably going to be a long cooped-up winter.

 

[tresir2012]

I would like to point out that this ban is occurring entirely due to the actions of the Executive Branch and that the US lawmaking branch - and the Courts - are not involved. I believe this may end up in the pile of things that gets decided by Courts.

After delaying on the CoVid recovery bill for 2 months, two nights ago (IIRC), our Senate confirmed 30 new federal judges appointed, of course, by the WH.

Oddly, China is not the only nation to expect news media to change wording or not use certain combinations of words. But it is the only nation targeted in this recent move. It is the Chinese App WeChat that has. the censorship (just like China has a special deal with Google regarding certain Google searches).

TikTok was not the one censoring. It will remain available, as I understand it, if a person has already downloaded it. It's free and on App Store and for Android until Sunday.

China wasn't censoring TikTok and TikTok and WeChat are two different apps.

TikTok was invented by the founder of ByteDance, who owns the app and is Chinese. His Board of Directors and his investors are international - mainly from Anglophone nations. A big chunk is owned by the same group that owns Duolingo.

The alleged security issues would be similar across many apps - TikTok, if you recall, is the one that allowed teenagers from around the world to troll a campaign rally in OK.

So I wouldn't say "America is banning TikTok." There's enough time between now and when the app will be (supposedly) completely banned for the courts to way in. We have certain items in our Bill of Rights that may be at play here, at least in principle.

Aren't all federal judges appointed by the WH normally? Oh yes I remember the alleged OK incident but I am not convinced that was a Chinese trolling attempt. The BBC article I posted said they had till mid November and if it became US owned it would not get banned. There are already moves afoot for that to happen according to the article and it reported that would pass the US security problems, which was causing it to be banned. (My interpretation/paraphrasing of the article I linked.) TBH I am more interested in the March BBC article about the censorship of any articles containing coronavirus subjects, as well as Twitter also censoring/deleting this lady's account because she is discussing the origin of the virus. What a crazy world with all this censorship suddenly? Who gives Twitter the knowledge to actually determine this?

 

[MrX]

We still have state coronavirus ordinances. People in Minnesota are required to wear a face covering in all indoor businesses and public indoor spaces, unless alone. Additionally, workers are required to wear a face covering when working outdoors in situations where social distancing cannot be maintained. Indoor occupant capacity is no more than 50% up to 250 persons. Party size limited to 4 persons, or 6 if all in one household. Required that patrons in bars are to be seated. Required reservations. Required for workers to wear masks at all times.

Reservations are required for bars/restaurants or all businesses? How is compliance/enforcement?

Our Governor and Health Director have been pretty clear that the State doesn't have near enough staff to monitor, and the police have never been involved in Covid enforcement. Our understanding is that the limited resources will be sent out for site visits if they receive multiple complaints, from different people, for the same violation. They won't hesitate to shut places down, but the focus really seems to be on high-profile venues.

Compliance seems to be the job of each establishment. My local hangout is run by people who aren't that concerned about Covid, and they have a clientele made up of regulars, so things are quite lax. The place I mentioned, last night, is hyper-compliant, hence closing up when the cook left, as bars have to run as restaurants in order to be open. On the flip side, there are a couple of joints, down the street, that have never served food, and their parking lots have been full, at all hours. I'd be interested to see what they could possibly be doing to convince anyone that they are now "restaurants." I think the issue is that they could never survive if they followed the rules to the letter, so they just take their chances.

 

[musicaljoke]

Twitter prioritizes blue-check verifications to confirm experts on COVID-19 and the novel coronavirus – TechCrunch

 

[Sillybilly]

Please move on from the debating / bickering over what constitutes "enormous".

Also, unless the TikTok posts related directly to Covid, they are off topic.

 

[ilovewings]

Well I thought my job was done! my husband has knee pain so he couldn't play golf or go to a "gathering"-- then- one of his buddies texts him after golf and says, come on down to the restaurant (outdoor but close seating- no masks)- "we miss you"-- I told him blame me, "the wife"--- so he texts his buddy back and says basically his wife won't allow him to go --makes me laugh but that's ok. I just was not comfortable with that type of "gathering"- you kinda think, oh, what is a few guys getting together on the patio of the restaurant, but I know there would be lots of people on that patio with no masks and no social distancing. It is unfortunate that we can't do those things: well, you can but i see it as too much of a risk for us vulnerable folks. Thanks for listening -----