Did Caylee Give Hints of Secrets?

[Nore]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Caylee was two months short of being three years old. At that age, language can be quite developed - at elast enough to have a conversation with direct questions -ie did you see Zanny today, what did you do today and so on. My nearly 20 month old grandaughter is doing more than "repeating a word here or there" she repeats everything, and yes often its not understandable, but in 12 months time I can see she will be very understandable.

--------------------------
Tina you are right.My son at 2 spoke in sentences and knew how to whistle.I know only one child who could not speak well enough to be understood at 2.I think c. may have heard enough to convince her k.was taking this child in bed with her and "friends".I work in a store.Some of these little ones would floor you.

 

[countzero]

Re: Tracy, let us not forget she told LE that when the results of the pontiac can back with decomp and the hair tested coming from either CA, ICA or Caylee, ICA simply stated "well I'm here".

Did Caylee give hints of what ICA was doing ..... yeppers she sure did. Just enough that GA picked up on them and admitted it. CA knew as well. CA knew everything that happened in the A compound right down to the amount of TP being used by each person.

 

[Eidetic]

:bedtime: but I have to post one of my videos for Caylee
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSM6d_afEbY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSM6d_afEbY[/ame]

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I have to disagree. It depends on the child. My daughter was 100% verbal at 2 years 0 months. The doctor said how may words does she say and I said all of them. The girl talked in sentences at 1 1/2. Now my almost 2 year old nephew says about 5 words. Caylee was basically a 3 year old, not a two year old. At three my child talked all about her day, who was at daycare, who wasn't, who hit who, who pulled the fire alarm. It was never an interrogation from me; kids that age babble on and on about everything and ask questions constantly. Why this why that; why does mommy put me in the trunk....

I dunno with Caylee though. She seemed behind the curve as far as speech goes. She never talked clearly in her videos. I doubt anyone in the family spent time with her or worked with her on that.

 

[wildchild1961]

Caylee lived with three people who couldn't be bothered to get up and make her breakfast. What makes you think - if she was spilling secrets - that anyone was listening?

Numbers? I missed almost the first year of this case.. so am catching up here.. where did the info on Caylee not having one of them make her breakfast come from? pretty please

wild

 

[strawberry]

I dunno with Caylee though. She seemed behind the curve as far as speech goes. She never talked clearly in her videos. I doubt anyone in the family spent time with her or worked with her on that.

True, that. It does make a difference when caretakers actually talk to the child. My daughter was in daycare and they learned songs and such and as an only child I talked to her all the time. Caylee did seem to behind speech-wise but I still think she somehow communicated what was up. Maybe.:waitasec:

 

[Eidetic]

I dunno with Caylee though. She seemed behind the curve as far as speech goes. She never talked clearly in her videos. I doubt anyone in the family spent time with her or worked with her on that.

I believe some of the videos were old. Her pony tail is much shorter in one of the video's where Caylee is dancing in front of the television as she tried to recite the ABC's with the kids. Tinker (You can hear her walk behind the dog at the end and call it "Tinker") chase one of the A's cats and disrupt the peace for a moment (imo this is the noise I heard, I have a cat and dogs) and Caylee responds by turning quickly and saying "whoa!"
Side bar- :41 freaks me out!
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r_r8qqPqoE[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T613YgLw_HE[/ame]
She is soft spoken and very shy.

 

[Itsy]

To me, in lots of the pictures of Caylee she looks confused/untrusting/afraid...kinda like, "Is this going to turn into a bad time?" Not sure I'm expressing what I'm trying to say well enough...the poor child just looks plain scared to me sometimes. Wasn't Casey usually the one behind the camera? I'm sure Cindy also took lots of pictures - hers, IMO, are the ones showing off new outfits, sunglasses, dressing up - she looks more relaxed in those. Of course I have no way of knowing for sure who took which pictures...this is just a gut feeling of mine.


I missed almost the first year of this case.. so am catching up here.. where did the info on Caylee not having one of them make her breakfast come from?

According to Cindy (IIRC), Caylee could fix her own breakfast and they supposedly allowed her to do so more often than not. Another thing I don't believe...add it to the long list. (I swear their list of mis-truths & half-truths is longer than Santa's yearly list!)

 

[carrie]

She was 2. No, she didn't have the ability to communicate anything reliable. Anything she said/did could be interpreted any number of ways. Are you guys serious?

I agree. Also, in the videos we've seen of little Caylee, she did not to be very verbal yet at all. JMO

 

[carrie]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Caylee was two months short of being three years old. At that age, language can be quite developed - at elast enough to have a conversation with direct questions -ie did you see Zanny today, what did you do today and so on. My nearly 20 month old grandaughter is doing more than "repeating a word here or there" she repeats everything, and yes often its not understandable, but in 12 months time I can see she will be very understandable.

While language certainly can be quite developed/advanced at that age (and even earlier) in some children, IMO, it wasn't in Caylee's case. She was, as OP stated, "age - appropriate," beautiful, innocent, adorable, and in every way progressing normally but was not advanced verbally to the point where she could articulate a great deal to Cindy. JMO

And even when kids are quite developed verbally, a child of two or three will say "yes" and then "no" and then "yes" to the very same question.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

While language certainly can be quite developed/advanced at that age (and even earlier) in some children, IMO, it wasn't in Caylee's case. She was, as OP stated, "age - appropriate," beautiful, innocent, adorable, and in every way progressing normally but was not advanced verbally to the point where she could articulate a great deal to Cindy. JMO

And even when kids are quite developed verbally, a child of two or three will say "yes" and then "no" and then "yes" to the very same question.

I agree. Caylee didn't seem to be able to make much sense...she said some words here and there in the vids, but seemed frustrated and unable to really communicate. Of course whoever was filming her didn't acknowledge or speak to her most of the time...The idea of her counting to 45 in spanish is just absurd.

 

[yosande]

I have been saying this from day one - that bank account theft was way too old to have been an issue, and what else could get CA that angry but something involving her granddaughter?

And let's remember - Cindy was probably highly curious as to where Caylee had been for the preceding week. A lot of folks think they had a fight on June 9th initially (probably because Cindy had taken off the week of her birthday, was expecting to spend time "bonding" with KC and Caylee and essentially ending up being ditched and forced to babysit most of the time). I think KC stormed out then and was spending the nights either at RM's (which he has verified for a night or two on June 10th) or other friends (perhaps AT or others). Not exactly an environment for a toddler.

A highly verbal toddler can be pumped for information using yes-no questions as well. Language skills for hearing generally precede those for speaking and Caylee probably understood far more complex sentences than she could even verbalize. I can certainly see CA asking all kinds of questions about where they were sleeping and what the arrangements were and what sorts of things Caylee might have seen people doing when she was away from home. Especially since KC had taken Caylee away from her home for the first time ever it sounds like. That probably worried CA no end, particularly since she may have been seeing the psychologist around then and was starting to think KC should be kicked out and she might need to take Caylee herself. Because she was worried about not only the legal costs but the costs of daycare I think - that whole situation would have been highly charged and full of emotion for her on that level, I'd bet.

KC was in no big hurry to come home that day either, finally pulling in around after 8:30 or so. If CA confronted her about things Caylee admitted to during her trip to Mt. Dora, that might have also infuriated KC, regardless of whether a fight ensued We have always speculated about the use of duct tape and the possibility of the meaning of a heart sticker. What better way than to show Caylee she is never going to talk again - stamped with the symbol KC gave all Caylee's photos - an icon perhaps to show ownership - Caylee belongs to KC and not CA and therefore KC is the one who decides her fate and whether she talks, not CA.

I'm sure it's been said a thousand times, but,

I think Cindy had told KC her plans to seek guardianship of Caylee, for many reasons.
i'm sure she knew that Caylee was going to grown up parties, and Cindy had seen some pics.
I don't doubt that Cindy and George love/d Caylee.

Even if the rest of the minds were messed up.

I think stealing from her grandma meant Cindy couldn't ignore it anymore, and she told KC her plans.

And the real fight was always about KC being first.
The video of KC and Caylee playing on the floor, all they see is Caylee.

KC could have been bleeding to death and they wouldn't have noticed.
All they saw was Caylee.

Pretty normal for the youngest person in the room who doesn't steal from you or your mom, and call you all kinds of horrible names to be the one who is looked on with love and adoration.

It was coming to a head, and then it did.
KC wasn't going to let her mom kick her to the curb in the motherhood role.
"If I can't have her, you sure can't." Thus the fight over burial/creamtion.
We all saw how KC hated that Cindy got the final say in the end.
she hates her parents, imo, even now.
She wanted to hurt them, so she killed Caylee. Spiteful, you bet.

She could have adopted her out though and accomplished the same thing.
moo

 

[logicalgirl]

I have a bit of a theory - all the same stuff we've been posting about, but arranged in a slightly different order.

We know that CA, and ICA to some degree, kept ICA's pregnancy hidden from relatives. As discussed, I have always believed this was a stigma issue, rather than the family unit ignoring the pregnancy when at home "with just themselves". I'm wondering if the decision of adoption hadn't been made yet, and Cindy was "making some space" for that to possibly happen by denying the pregnancy at the wedding. Because if ICA turned up at the next family gathering, obviously not pregnant, with no baby in tow, then she wasn't pregnant was she? Even though obviously again, she was!

I'll also bet ICA got a lot of attention from her family when she was pregnant - how are you feeling, no - you just rest - we'll do that, no you don't look fat honey, you look gorgeous, etc. And when Caylee was born, I'm sure both Mother and Daughter got tons of attention. But it doesn't take long - what? - two or three months, before the attention switches off the new mother, and on to the gorgeous new baby. Grandparents would have been completely focused on the "bright new star" in their midst.

So, to focus on another area for a moment, I think ICA has always had severe behavioral issues. I believe Cindy as her mother, knew there was something just not right about ICA. So I think she made a deal with herself, and an unspoken deal with ICA. Live here with us, keep Caylee here so I can keep an eye on you and enjoy the benefits of having this darling in our midst. And I will do that, support you financially, as long as you stay out of trouble and do a good job of looking after your child. If you can't do that, then off you go into the big bad world to support yourself, and we'll raise Caylee on our own.

I don't think George knew about this "deal" and this was why Cindy told him to leave it alone when he was ranting about the non-job at the"Sports Authority". After all, who was he to talk since Cindy was supporting George financially also.

But we know ICA didn't "behave" don't we? And we strongly suspect Cindy was beginning to see ICA was neglecting Caylee also.

All this time, ICA was completely PO because Caylee was the centre of attention and the very reason her life was being restricted. After all, she was working wasn't she? She was managing her life with a child? Why no respect? Because Cindy knew better.

So I think things really came to a head. Cindy had given ICA her last chance and blew a gasket when she found out about the theft of her father's rest home pension. So, she told ICA to get out, and no more being supported - it was over. Cindy told her to leave Caylee, that she and George would adopt her and ICA could get on with her life and do whatever she wanted for all Cindy cared.

ICA knew Cayee was the pawn, so she stormed off with her. But Cindy wasn't begging ICA to come back, she was begging ICA to bring Caylee back.

So we know what happened to Caylee, out of spite? Out of revenge? Out of hatred? All IMO

 

[SuperChick]

It is natural for a child to be more attached to their mother, even when she's abusive. Besides, as stated before, children understand what's being said before they can express it themselves. She must have heard often what a burden she was to Cindy. Also, Casey was manipulative and therefore nice to Caylee at times, to ensure her favoritism. I suspect Casey scared Caylee into not telling a word. Something like, "if you tell CeCe & JoJo,(fill in the blank), they'll make sure you never see me again. They aren't your Mommy who loves you, so they might send you away to school all alone." Some scare tactic to prevent Caylee from saying anything, even when asked"

 

[ynotdivein]

There's also the possibility that, whatever her verbal communication skills were, Caylee responded to some of Cindy's questions in ways that provoked Cindy's concern and possibly anger. IMO Cindy didn't have relationships in her community or with her spouse or apparently not even with a close friend where she could run such an exchange past an objective observer. ("Caylee and I were talking in the car today, and she said the funniest thing, I can't figure out if I should be concerned or not.... what do you think?")

:cow: Caylee maybe was not much of a "talker" and did not deliberately "tattle" on her mother, but in her answers to CeCy's questioning, Cindy maybe heard what she wanted to hear and went from there.

 

[akashana]

I am thinking that if she had spent any time in a trunk in Florida, she would not have survived. Either that, or would have suffered medically. I know a lot of people that since she was kept in the trunk deceased think that she may have been kept in the trunk alive. JMO but I just think that is not plausible.

You are so right, Tuffy. I'm sure those that persist in this thinking have spent very little or no time in the Deep South in summertime. Being stashed in a trunk for but the briefest minutes would not be a survivable event. Even at night, temperatures often remain well into the 80s, and a stuffy, airless trunk is incompatible with life. At the very least, Caylee would have emerged a very sick little tot, probably brain damaged.

 

[akashana]

I have a bit of a theory - all the same stuff we've been posting about, but arranged in a slightly different order.

We know that CA, and ICA to some degree, kept ICA's pregnancy hidden from relatives. As discussed, I have always believed this was a stigma issue, rather than the family unit ignoring the pregnancy when at home "with just themselves". I'm wondering if the decision of adoption hadn't been made yet, and Cindy was "making some space" for that to possibly happen by denying the pregnancy at the wedding. Because if ICA turned up at the next family gathering, obviously not pregnant, with no baby in tow, then she wasn't pregnant was she? Even though obviously again, she was!

So, to focus on another area for a moment, I think ICA has always had severe behavioral issues. I believe Cindy as her mother, knew there was something just not right about ICA. So I think she made a deal with herself, and an unspoken deal with ICA. Live here with us, keep Caylee here so I can keep an eye on you and enjoy the benefits of having this darling in our midst. And I will do that, support you financially, as long as you stay out of trouble and do a good job of looking after your child. If you can't do that, then off you go into the big bad world to support yourself, and we'll raise Caylee on our own.

I don't think George knew about this "deal" and this was why Cindy told him to leave it alone when he was ranting about the non-job at the"Sports Authority". After all, who was he to talk since Cindy was supporting George financially also.

But we know ICA didn't "behave" don't we? And we strongly suspect Cindy was beginning to see ICA was neglecting Caylee also.

All this time, ICA was completely PO because Caylee was the centre of attention and the very reason her life was being restricted. After all, she was working wasn't she? She was managing her life with a child? Why no respect? Because Cindy knew better.

So I think things really came to a head. Cindy had given ICA her last chance and blew a gasket when she found out about the theft of her father's rest home pension. So, she told ICA to get out, and no more being supported - it was over. Cindy told her to leave Caylee, that she and George would adopt her and ICA could get on with her life and do whatever she wanted for all Cindy cared.

ICA knew Cayee was the pawn, so she stormed off with her. But Cindy wasn't begging ICA to come back, she was begging ICA to bring Caylee back.

So we know what happened to Caylee, out of spite? Out of revenge? Out of hatred? All IMO

Respectfully snipped MY BOLD

You raise some interesting points, logicalgirl. I have always wondered how Cindy, as a nurse, could NOT know that her only daughter was well along with her pregnancy. I understand denial, but that''s just too far out for me to accept. So your theory makes quite a bit of sense to me. If indeed Cindy and KC were in cahoots about her "job" because Cindy suspected that KC was either unable or unwilling to hold down a real one, and Cindy made her "deal with the devil" in order to keep an eye both on her precious grandchild and her wayward daughter, it makes perfect sense that as Caylee became more and more verbal and mentioned things she shouldn't, or failed to acknowledge names she should, e.g., "Zanny," that Cindy would feel angry and betrayed that KC wasn't living up to her end of the deal. She would have been within her rights to threaten to withhold further support, cars, housing, etc., and say she and George would seek custody of Caylee. KC knew that Caylee was her bargaining chip; if she lost custody, she also lost a whole lot more. And for a young girl who disliked working but liked all the other perks associated with being employed, that could definitely be the motivation for murder.

 

[mimimama5]

Alright, I wasnt going to start the debate on whether or not a child Cyalee's age is capable of speaking to inform, but since its been started lol, here's me two cents.
I currently am mama to a little boy who is now 2 yrs 8 months. He was a late speaker, actually didnt say any words until he was about 1 and 1/2 and even then, he was very quiet. He is not a social butterfly, and is timid by nature. He is also the 5th child in our lineup, having a brother who is 11 months older ( dont try that at home). I'm giving a little backround info here so maybe we can make an educated guestimate on Caylee's speaking ability. Littlest man now has a full command of the vocabulary, he speaks in complete sentences, although his pronouns and some tenses may be a little muddled. For example on saying goodnight to him and his bigger brother last night, as I was closing the door, I said " goodnight boys, I love you, sweet dreams" to which Littlest man responded, "love you too mommy, you go sleep in you bed?" he's very capable of not only responding to any questions I ask him, but expressing his wants, likes, dislikes etc. He can also ask me questions that are appropriate for the situation like whether or not I was going to bed too. He can quite clearly tattle on his bigger brother for breaking something, or for hitting, or for whatever minor infraction bigger boy has commited lol. After having 4 toddlers, and spending my pre-mommy days as a private nanny, I can say with my own degree of certainty that I belive Caylee would be capable of answering questions that CA was asking, and might volunteer info that could have implicated KC in any number of wrongs. I'm not saying there isnt room for error, believe me, children are quite creative in thier imaginative minds. Just last week Littlest man saw an elephant shaped cloud in the sky, and cried the entire trip to the store, because he was certain the elephant was gonna get us. ( not sure why elephants frighten him so much, but its one of his little quirks lol)

 

[armywife210]

She was 2. No, she didn't have the ability to communicate anything reliable. Anything she said/did could be interpreted any number of ways. Are you guys serious?

when my girls were two (not to mention very near three), they VERY verbal...the oldest one especially. She could carry on a complete conversation for hours and be totally understood. They also knew the difference between truth, lies, and stories and were very clear about which one they were telling. So yes, of course we are serious. Many girls (most girls gain verbal skills before boys), ESPECIALLY girls without siblings, are able to do this and very well.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

I agree. Caylee didn't seem to be able to make much sense...she said some words here and there in the vids, but seemed frustrated and unable to really communicate. Of course whoever was filming her didn't acknowledge or speak to her most of the time...The idea of her counting to 45 in spanish is just absurd.

People who are around their children a lot usually catch on to what the child is saying and wants. It's a natural sense the parent has to communicate with the child. The little one doesn't need to be verbally distinct.

I think you're correct about the person with Caylee not acknowledging or speaking to her in the videos. We've watched many of Cindy's videos where she's talking to Caylee the whole time. This leads me to believe the ones where Caylee gets no attention from the videographer are the ones taken by Casey. George and Cindy always interacted with the child when they were taking the pictures.

We know Cindy had to work outside the home to support her family, so she only was able to speak with the child during the evenings and weekends. The rest of the time Caylee was with Casey or "the babysitter". That leaves lots of non-talking time during the day, doesn't it? So you are probably correct about the child not having much interaction. Therefore, her communication skills could have been a tad behind the norm. Yet the people she lived with probably understood her, IF they were listening and paying attention.

There could have been many times when Caylee tried to tell them about her day ("I slept all day") or her time with the babysitter ("We visited a friend and mommy was tired and slept in his bed all day and night") and when Cindy questioned Casey about the odd things Caylee was saying, KC probably said, oh no, that's not what she was saying. She said blah, blah, blah....

For the life of me, I can't see how the child didn't chatter about their adventures, kids usually do. They can't wait to tell everyone about their day and what happened.

Also, Cindy's constant bragging about how intelligent Caylee was could have been her way of claiming Casey was a good mother, Cindy was a good grandmother, and a way to cover her own guilt for not seeing the truth. Try as we do, we'll never understand the Anthonys.