FL - Michelle Mishcon, 53, & John Stevens, 59, murdered, Tequesta, 15 Aug 2016 - #1

[Mollyandme]

yep, every time I see the dentist they offer painkillers. I do not need painkillers for a filling! Advil works just fine. The amount of prescription pills over prescribed frightens me.
So college kids needing extra cash will sell their spare scripts. All walks of life from collegiate upper class affluent teens to street kids.

Yup. When I was in college the big thing was kids who had adderall prescriptions selling them, especially during finals week, or before people had big exams. It's pretty rampant. I'm not really taking everything his frat brothers say about him never trying drugs at face value for obvious reasons.

I think it's highly possible that AH did abuse steroids and possibly other drugs that contributed to his mental state and his horrible crime, and think it's possible he was on one of these substances on the night of the murders. But until tox reports come back we won't know. I was trying to research cases of homicides committed by someone experiencing psychosis while not under the influence of drugs and found a few studies and links. There are many studies that found people in a psychotic episode due to mental illness that are also under the influence of drugs are more likely to be violent than those experiencing a psychotic episode solely due to an underlying mental illness, but that is not always the case. The link below is long but describes these findings and discusses factors that might make one experiencing a psychotic episode due to an underlying mental illness with no drugs or alcohol involved more likely to be violent, homicidal, and suicidal. I read it and there are several factors that could apply to AH but it's long so read only if you are interested:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686644/

Also, depending on the cause of psychosis, it can come on quickly or slowly. in the case of AH, it could be possible that an underlying mental illness was slowly coming on, based on the reports we have seen of his YouTube videos, his change in behavior as reported by his parents in the past few weeks, shooting the bird as the neighbor reported, etc. I know there were reports that he couldn't sleep for a week before he committed these gruesome murders. This can also be a symptom of mania and can culminate in a psychotic episode. Stress can also cause someone suffering from a mental illness to experience psychosis, so it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that whatever happened with his dad at the restaurant, combined with lack of sleep and an underlying mental illness caused a psychotic break. Also, there is an increased risk of violence when an individual is experiencing "first episode psychosis."

http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/heal...sis_information_guide/Pages/fep_symptoms.aspx

http://journalistsresource.org/stud...omicide-first-episode-psychosis-meta-analysis

So while it is possible that there were no drugs involved at all, most cases of violence during a psychotic episode also involve some sort of drug, including steroids. I guess we won't know for sure if AH is one of the rarer cases that was not caused at least in part to a mind altering substance for awhile.

Sorry for the long post, I'm not trying to justify or excuse his actions, I personally think drugs were involved but I can understand that it might not be the case.

 

[x_files]

Yup. When I was in college the big thing was kids who had adderall prescriptions selling them, especially during finals week, or before people had big exams. It's pretty rampant. I'm not really taking everything his frat brothers say about him never trying drugs at face value for obvious reasons.

I think it's highly possible that AH did abuse steroids and possibly other drugs that contributed to his mental state and his horrible crime, and think it's possible he was on one of these substances on the night of the murders. But until tox reports come back we won't know. I was trying to research cases of homicides committed by someone experiencing psychosis while not under the influence of drugs and found a few studies and links. There are many studies that found people in a psychotic episode due to mental illness that are also under the influence of drugs are more likely to be violent than those experiencing a psychotic episode solely due to an underlying mental illness, but that is not always the case. The link below is long but describes these findings and discusses factors that might make one experiencing a psychotic episode due to an underlying mental illness with no drugs or alcohol involved more likely to be violent, homicidal, and suicidal. I read it and there are several factors that could apply to AH but it's long so read only if you are interested:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686644/

Also, depending on the cause of psychosis, it can come on quickly or slowly. in the case of AH, it could be possible that an underlying mental illness was slowly coming on, based on the reports we have seen of his YouTube videos, his change in behavior as reported by his parents in the past few weeks, shooting the bird as the neighbor reported, etc. I know there were reports that he couldn't sleep for a week before he committed these gruesome murders. This can also be a symptom of mania and can culminate in a psychotic episode. Stress can also cause someone suffering from a mental illness to experience psychosis, so it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that whatever happened with his dad at the restaurant, combined with lack of sleep and an underlying mental illness caused a psychotic break. Also, there is an increased risk of violence when an individual is experiencing "first episode psychosis."

http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/heal...sis_information_guide/Pages/fep_symptoms.aspx

http://journalistsresource.org/stud...omicide-first-episode-psychosis-meta-analysis

So while it is possible that there were no drugs involved at all, most cases of violence during a psychotic episode also involve some sort of drug, including steroids. I guess we won't know for sure if AH is one of the rarer cases that was not caused at least in part to a mind altering substance for awhile.

Sorry for the long post, I'm not trying to justify or excuse his actions, I personally think drugs were involved but I can understand that it might not be the case.

His frats brothers are going to be in CYA mode, many probably have lawyered up by now.

 

[turanna25]

I wonder how much if any brain damage he has

I'm wondering the same thing.

 

[Curious Me]

Thank You Mollyandme for researching that and providing info links. Can a person have a sudden psychotic break without any drugs involved, and go into a cannibalistic murderous rage, along with super human strength, seemingly out of nowhere? That's exactly what we're all wondering.

Got to run errands, and be back later after I read some.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Thank You Mollyandme for researching that and providing info links. Can a person have a sudden psychotic break without any drugs involved, and go into a cannibalistic murderous rage, along with super human strength, seemingly out of nowhere? That's exactly what we're all wondering.

Got to run errands, and be back later after I read some.

I think it is something possible, but not very probable. I think steroids and/or other drugs played some role and that he may well have had an underlying mental illness. The effect of steroids can last a long time, especially with younger people. He for instance may have zero drugs in his system, but it still could have been caused by him going off steroids say a month ago.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Here's a new article with a variety of details throughout including this (also it does turn out WH is lawyered up, which was shown on Dr Phil was lawyer-approved while other bits didn't air):

Austin did tell his father the day of the murders he wanted to die, and threatened suicide because he couldn’t help everyone. He had become focused and obsessed with making the world a better place and talking to homeless people and hitch-hiking.

http://cbs12.com/news/local/suspect-in-deadly-cannibal-attack-wakes-up
I'd really like to know what the father was doing and why it wasn't him calling LE and saying his son had threatened suicide that day, if that is what happened.

 

[x_files]

Here's a new article with a variety of details throughout including this (also it does turn out WH is lawyered up, which was shown on Dr Phil was lawyer-approved while other bits didn't air):

http://cbs12.com/news/local/suspect-in-deadly-cannibal-attack-wakes-up
I'd really like to know what the father was doing and why it wasn't him calling LE and saying his son had threatened suicide that day, if that is what happened.

Maybe he threatens suicide all the time and they just learned to ignore him?

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Maybe he threatens suicide all the time and they just learned to ignore him?

That too would also be very good to know if he said that frequently in a non-sarcastic way. He could have been really screaming for mental health treatment.

 

[Curious Me]

Wow, I tried to read it, but you weren't kidding it's long and lots of numbers and percentages, so much info maybe even some secrets of the universe.
Anyways, it makes me realize how much research is being done on the
parts of the brain and mental processes. AH had an MRI and maybe it provided some clues into his sudden rage. I know he played football and was a wrestler, and I've wondered if he also suffered any head injuries over the years. I'm still leaning towards steroid abuse triggering the recent mental distress.

With structural magnetic resonance imaging, they demonstrated that violent behavior was associated with thinning in various areas of the cortex, which differed in the schizophrenic and antisocial patients, as compared to the controls. 36 Other studies, focusing on personality-disordered patients, identified a significant decrease in glucose metabolism in the frontal cortex among those with aggressive tendencies. 33 Further evidence suggests that the limbic system is involved in the production of aggression. Specifically, stimulation of the amygdala in animals has resulted in rage attacks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686644/

 

[glf]

Something I ran across a few mins ago some might find interesting, or informative, definitely scary...Put in Salina Post, under news, pic of person named Vanochen. Says not about mental illness, but I think I would have to have alot of proof before I could agree!

 

[CARIIS]

James Holmes (batman massacre) mother :

http://www.10news.com/news/10news-exclusive-silence-broken-a-mothers-message

 

[Curious Me]

Here's a new article with a variety of details throughout including this (also it does turn out WH is lawyered up, which was shown on Dr Phil was lawyer-approved while other bits didn't air):

Austin did tell his father the day of the murders he wanted to die, and threatened suicide because he couldn’t help everyone. He had become focused and obsessed with making the world a better place and talking to homeless people and hitch-hiking.

http://cbs12.com/news/local/suspect-in-deadly-cannibal-attack-wakes-up

I'd really like to know what the father was doing and why it wasn't him calling LE and saying his son had threatened suicide that day, if that is what happened.

BBM Mixed feelings of sympathy for the family members and anger with their excuses. Every word out his father's mouth is rather damning, IMO. I really don't want to be judgmental, but what Dad says makes him sound somehow responsible for ignoring these red flags.

Gosh, more odd details, the concern to add cheese to the drinking of oil, talking to homeless, and wanting to hitch-hike...okay, interesting, weird..., but what about the clear indications somebody needed to get this kid to a mental health professional before he had that murderous psychotic break. Only they know if they ignored clear warning signs and I do feel sorry for them, but...

If it's true he grabbed AH by the collar in the restaurant, let him run out into the night in an excited state with suicidal symptoms and his switchblade, had been having continuous arguments lately which in itself adds to AH's rage, without somehow getting AH some mental help...what does Dad want me to understand about this?

http://cbs12.com/news/local/suspect-in-deadly-cannibal-attack-wakes-up

 

[Mollyandme]

Thank You Mollyandme for researching that and providing info links. Can a person have a sudden psychotic break without any drugs involved, and go into a cannibalistic murderous rage, along with super human strength, seemingly out of nowhere? That's exactly what we're all wondering.

Got to run errands, and be back later after I read some.

I think it is something possible, but not very probable. I think steroids and/or other drugs played some role and that he may well have had an underlying mental illness. The effect of steroids can last a long time, especially with younger people. He for instance may have zero drugs in his system, but it still could have been caused by him going off steroids say a month ago.

Pretty much exactly what SpanishInquisition said, at least based on everything I have read. It's possible, but the steroids and/or something else likely played a role based on the facts we know so far about the crime, imo.

I'm gonna go do some more research on "super human strength" and biting during a psychotic episode and see if I can find anything else. I promise I will try not to link to anything that's 50 pages long this time!

 

[Curious Me]

James Holmes (batman massacre) mother :

http://www.10news.com/news/10news-exclusive-silence-broken-a-mothers-message

Thanks for posting it. I really respect his mother for getting that important message out there. Wish AH's family could meet with her because she would be able to help them a lot.

 

[CARIIS]

Thanks for posting it. I really respect his mother for getting that important message out there. Wish AH's family could meet with her because she would be able to help them a lot.

That is interesting - when I posted it I thought "it would be neat if someone who knew him saw this mother. My concerns about mom are not that she is in denial, that is a protective thing - it is after the fact she is lying. He did this - I think their bigger reaponsiblity is to be truthful - it can help get the warning sign stuff out there.

There really are specific signs, I really dont believe people "crack" - its a marinating entity -- if people knew the reciepe they could try to intervene before it gets to this point, obvioulsy in America we are doing a very poor job on this angle.

I so wish the fratnity guys (again if they exist) would speak up jmo

I dont really know if they could get in trouble? LE cant arrest you cause you tell them that last month AH, Bob and I ate baths salts, they cant arrest them for something they did a month ago right?


in a way, they are hurting him - physically, doctors would know better what to do (right now) if someone told them yeh he used Fraka or steroids or bathsalts or whatever.

They are letting him die - they are not, as far as we know, helping doctors know exactly what they are dealing with does not sound like a real close friend to me.

But for some reason I beleive that he really did not have friends, and mom is in denial about that - that her son , in reality, was rejected by peers. At 19 the only online presense he seems to have is one of a very disturbed young man.


jmo

 

[CARIIS]

Maybe he threatens suicide all the time and they just learned to ignore him?

I did not relaize until yesterday that she drove him back to the restaurant. That profoundly struck me as if she just was not in the mood to deal with one of "his" episodes.

If the fight happened in the home there was nothing that could be done- they live with each other.

It just hit me a really "off" to, get him in the car, drive over there, and let him out? What would be anyones "reason" to return him to dad in a public setting?? I am asking! I come up so empty.

He is 19, not a 7 year old-how did she get him to agree to go "back"?? Why? For what? What positive could happen by doing that? Better for them to have some space no?

Doing so after a delicious glass of Wesson Oil makes it all even more peculiar no?

I have wondered if her bfriend and her had plans or soemthing?


I can not come up with any reason other than that - anyone have any ideas why you would do that in identical scenario?? Its strange no?

Just struck me , for lack of a better word as a "dump"

moo

 

[CARIIS]

Pretty much exactly what SpanishInquisition said, at least based on everything I have read. It's possible, but the steroids and/or something else likely played a role based on the facts we know so far about the crime, imo.

I'm gonna go do some more research on "super human strength" and biting during a psychotic episode and see if I can find anything else. I promise I will try not to link to anything that's 50 pages long this time!

In hospital setting yes they can become very strong. Very. In a hospital setting (acute) a LOT of times they are extemely strong when they go "off" - hence the term! That would actually, amungst staff be the term. I think Austin might go "off". Its common .

The way we did take downs (getting someone off the unit and into seclusion for their safety and unit safety) is a five person operation. It is organized, planned if one has the time to get staff etc.

I kinda think the media and cops got this bath salt stuff from the Miami incident. In almost every take down there was concern about being bit, and many often tried to do so--it was common (attempt to bite). Obvioulsy in that setting staff never got eaten, but , to me, someone activily psycotic is responding to voices - as oppossed to being Hannibal Lector.

I dont think this guy was/is a cannibal - lost control - there is a difference IMO. One of the most enlighting experiances was when a schzophrenic , after being stablized, explained it like it was like being caught between radio stations, and there is static, while at the same time hearing both channels, really loud.

back to a take down ......one person for each limb, and one for the head so there is less chance of getting bit or spit on. Very strong when responding to voices or things in thier mind.

Only one of us would speak with the pt, everyone else remains silent- too much stimulation already going on. Talk real soft, dont get into any dialog about being Jesus - basically over and over is " I feel as if you are not safe now, I do not feel safe now can we go somewhere where it is quieter. A lot of times , if you were good, you could get them to voluneraly walk into the secusion room.

Some folks were horrible at it and escalated the whole thing. Then the whole unit gets agiated. I never looked at needing seclsion as a fault, or punishment for being sick. Wouldn't you like to go somewhere quieter, where you are safe?

They are scared when they are expericing it - its scary......... if they trusted you they would pause and realize that it might be easier for a while in there.

In some instances (was kind of cute actually) some would come up and say something like I think I should go into seclsuion now!!

But yes -- wildly strong, wildly so.....................................again scary.....

I do not think he is going to remember much , and that he would be telling the truth when/if he says so.....rarely do they remember when they lose control and the voices get so loud and convicning

 

[GeeEm]

RBBM: Foriguve me, but until he has been assessed by an *actual* mental health professional or has had his brain scanned and analyzed (or dissected postmortem if he dies to determine underlying brain issues/trauma/disease), why on earth shouldn't his parents consider that he had developed a serious mental illness? He certainly exhibited the signs of one in recent weeks. Hearing voices, delusions and odd/ erratic behavior could have been precursors leading up to a complete break from reality. Let's let the professionals determine if he was on drugs or steroids. He may very well have been on both, and it certainly sounds like he had been using steroids, but this doesn't mean he wasn't mentally ill as well. Not everything is so black and white. MOO.

Forgiven!

However, you do not develop mental illness over night, and I do not proclaim to be a mental health professional. If he showed systems of mental illness why was he not treated before? If his parents suspected things were going array, why not take him to see a doctor? Did his father give him pills, since he is a dentist, he certainly could have access to them. Odd behavior in a person does NOT suggest mental illness, nor a break from reality. I have seen more and I mean MORE disturbing videos than AH has ever put up on you tube, and they are not mental.

I never look at things as black and white, IMO he was not mentally ill, he smiled at his mother in the hospital today, that is more than the dead victims will EVER get to do!

Either way, he will be seeing(hoping)death penalty with execution

I suppose if the Stevens' were a part of your family member, you would not be calling him mental! His friends never stated(that I have read)he was mentally ill and being his age, I find it he would be around them more than his family. Watching the video of his fishing trip I seen nothing mental about that.

So until the toxicology report comes back, I am still leaning towards some type of steroids

MOO :moo:

 

[seventeenseconds]

Another awesome post ninij9!

You and Curious Me have hit the nail on the head tonight about the father!

jmo :moo:

Building the mental defense. God hope none of us ever are in this situation. I can't say what I would do. I mean if u can keep your son from prison vs a mental health facility. I don't know. Just thinking.


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[ninij9]

That is interesting - when I posted it I thought "it would be neat if someone who knew him saw this mother. My concerns about mom are not that she is in denial, that is a protective thing - it is after the fact she is lying. He did this - I think their bigger reaponsiblity is to be truthful - it can help get the warning sign stuff out there.

There really are specific signs, I really dont believe people "crack" - its a marinating entity -- if people knew the reciepe they could try to intervene before it gets to this point, obvioulsy in America we are doing a very poor job on this angle.

I so wish the fratnity guys (again if they exist) would speak up jmo

I dont really know if they could get in trouble? LE cant arrest you cause you tell them that last month AH, Bob and I ate baths salts, they cant arrest them for something they did a month ago right?


in a way, they are hurting him - physically, doctors would know better what to do (right now) if someone told them yeh he used Fraka or steroids or bathsalts or whatever.

They are letting him die - they are not, as far as we know, helping doctors know exactly what they are dealing with does not sound like a real close friend to me.

But for some reason I beleive that he really did not have friends, and mom is in denial about that - that her son , in reality, was rejected by peers. At 19 the only online presense he seems to have is one of a very disturbed young man.


jmo

AH is 19. If his Frat bros admit to drinking/drugging at the Frat house couldn't they have their charter revoked? And wouldn't those in the fraternity over 21 have problems? I'm just trying to think what might cause silence if in fact they know things.

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