General Discussion Thread No. 17

[Tuba]

Tuba, a kidnapper would not necessarily leave DNA anyway. Unless there was some kind of bodily fluid left behind--saliva, semen, blood, sweat--there's not going to be DNA from a kidnapper. Absence or presence of "other" DNA doesn't prove or disprove an abductor.

Presence of Madeleine's DNA, on the other hand, in places such as a car trunk or an apartment where she was not in residence, is much more significant.

Well, this is not my theory, it is the latest news on our case that was available. The fact is that the DNA was in 5A and was left by someone whom the police cannot i.d. The return to the kidnapping is due to it being stranger DNA. The nine from the dinner party will have to provide new samples. They are being asked to recall what they were wearing (the photos from the dinner party may help) and produce it.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Here we go - stuff is leaking out in buckets now:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22561651-5006003,00.html

This article is alot like the last one I posted about the idea that seven children were in the McCann apartment - but then there is this:

Russell O'Brien, a hospital consultant from Exeter, left the restaurant at 9.35pm and returned at 10pm, just minutes before Mrs McCann discovered that Madeleine was missing.

Mr OBrien has strenuously denied any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance and has never been a formal suspect in the investigation.

24 Horas reported: "The British man guaranteed he took that long because he visited his sick daughter, and she vomited. He says he asked for the sheets to be changed, but the staff at the Ocean Club assured the investigators that nobody asked for any bedsheets to be changed that evening."

 

[Tuba]

Yes, the mystery person in the flat is mentioned in this Manchester news article too. I recall reading or seeing some footage about this finding at the time. The personal samples taken from Murat and the doctors and their families may not have been perfectly preserved or larger samples may be wanted. So far the DNA of the mystery man does not match Murat or any member of the vacation party. I also remember "DNA not belonging to family was found in 5A in a place where it did not belong."

 

[ThoughtFox]

Frankly, I don't think they need a "mystery person" if so many people were going in and out of the apartment.

I think they are just trying to sort out what they already know, with the people who were most probably there that night.

 

[Barnaby]

Either it is a clever PJ ruse to try to make some of the Tapas party crack or there is unidentified DNA from an unknown party. However, why only make a fuss about it now? I heard this a long time ago!
Even if another strange person is identified, I cannot see that he will be unconnected to the McCanns & friends in some way. There have just been too many lies told for these people to be genuine!
What about all the stories that Clarence Mitchell was there on May 3rd & may even have paid the Tapas bill?

 

[Tuba]

The class of people being asked to submit is expanding. British tourists who were there in May are being examined too. Fingerprinting as well as DNA and clothes. Fingerprints were found in 5A and remain unidentified. There was some expectation that, by now, this personal evidence would have been matched to an individual.

 

[dkitty]

I have thought all along that O'Brien & Tanner are in the frame!

Me too.

 

[Tuba]

Just found an item on who was in 5A on May 3 that could be telling. It was a link at Reuters that claimed CCTV refutes there were only the three children in the home that night. Personally, I put no store in supposed witness interrogatories taken on this subject and the DNA from the other children could have been deposited during the week & proves nothing to me. Video of the building is, for me, far more convincing. I haven't been able to find more on this, however. When I read the article, not one word about CCTV! I will try some of the foreign press.

 

[Tuba]

No luck. I am starting to think the CCTV footage is from the dinner party at the restaurant & will go to prove who left the table and when and that it does not relate to the building housing the doctors and who was in 5A. Even if it helps validate or refute statements about who went to check on the children and when, such footage would be valuable. If the pictures don't correspond to the statements, this should have surfaced long ago because so many press reports assumed the doctors' statements were true and proceeded from there.

 

[Zelda]

I just heard this on Fox News. WOW, if this is really true, and they have PROOF, someone will talk...soon. Especially if immunity if offered to one of them.

What did you hear on Fox News? Maybe I should read page 5.

 

[PharmSleuth]

Thoughtfox, I have seen that bedsheet change referenced in several articles. I wonder how many bedsheets and towels went missing that night. It also makes you wonder if the reason that all the doors and windows were open to the apartment when the police arrived was because they were airing out the odors from the:sick:

 

[lovebites]

October 9 Times of London reports on not just one residue but many instances of it in 5A, that cannot be identified to the McCann family so that the suspicion is returning to a kidnapper as the reason for Madeleine's disappearance. This would not make sense if the traces were just collected but they have been known for some time. Since 5A wasn't sealed and was re-let, there is now a lot of new DNA in the flat. The dinner party members will now be submitting their own DNA, clothing and phone use. There is mobile information that has not been sourced & it came from the bldg.

Now what I've always wondered with this info is - wasn't this apartment frequently rented out, akin to a hotel room? It would be nearly impossible to remove every trace of former tenants so perhaps DNA would be there from almost everyone who has ever stayed there.
Just a thought. I've seen those shows where they shine that blue light over "cleaned" 5 star hotel rooms and it's horrifying what's left behind - yikes!

 

[Pinkhammer]

One substance that would be incriminating would be semen from one of the other Tapas males found in apt. 5a. DNA from all the little children doesn't mean anything. But DNA from one of the men? Was there a pedophile in the Tapas Group?

 

[ThoughtFox]

Zelda: I think Fox News must have mentioned the new story about up to seven children being in the McCann's apartment:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2621809.ece

Thoughtfox, I have seen that bedsheet change referenced in several articles. I wonder how many bedsheets and towels went missing that night. It also makes you wonder if the reason that all the doors and windows were open to the apartment when the police arrived was because they were airing out the odors from the

That is a very good point!

You have to wonder what was going on. Were all the kids given drugs to get them to sleep, and that caused the "illness." Or did something happen to Maddie, and that made the girl become ill. Or is all of that a likely story/red herring to explain missing sheets and towels?

Even with questions we still have, I think this is making more sense than ever - I never could understand why another parent would be sent to check on the McCann's children, but if this guy's daughter was there also, then it does make sense.

It would also become a good motive for everyone in the Tapas group to band together and not talk - they all have secrets about that night if all the kids were together.

But what the heck happened? :waitasec:

 

[ThoughtFox]

One substance that would be incriminating would be semen from one of the other Tapas males found in apt. 5a. DNA from all the little children doesn't mean anything. But DNA from one of the men? Was there a pedophile in the Tapas Group?

I would think that would be the least likely possibility, because I think someone would break away from the group and rat him out. Especially if the guy was a parent and their own children might be around him again. That's just my opinion.

I lean more towards an accidental death with a cover up, at this point. But I am beginning to think more than one of the Tapas group (or perhaps all of them) know what really happened.

 

[Dr. Creepin]

If there were seven children in the apartment, it explains why O'Brien checked on the children. He listened at the door. If they were drugged, then that is all that would be required and explains why they were not cavorting around. But it blows the abduction story out of the water and sheds some light on the pact of silence.

 

[gord]

wow - well another scenario .

From what I can see is that all the reports of all the children being together stem from an article by 24 Horas - which quotes a unamed source within the Portugese police .

Now I have no idea of the merits of this latest theory - It could be true - God alone only knows


What I cant understand is after all the flack the Police have taken regarding leaks - loosing two of their senior investigatiors , and with the laws of secrecy in Portugal sub judice - why on earth would the police leak this sensational piece of evidence - to what end . Especialy withn the new guy coming on board

Is it to flush out the rest of the Tapas 9 ? - . It seems that if the evidence is good and they have eye witnesses to back it up , ie the staff , then it would be more than enough to arrest the Tapas - get them back to Portugal for questioning - maybe that will happen

Something just doesnt seem right - but I have ceased to be surprised about what is being written on this case now

 

[Barnaby]

wow - well another scenario .

From what I can see is that all the reports of all the children being together stem from an article by 24 Horas - which quotes a unamed source within the Portugese police .

Now I have no idea of the merits of this latest theory - It could be true - God alone only knows


What I cant understand is after all the flack the Police have taken regarding leaks - loosing two of their senior investigatiors , and with the laws of secrecy in Portugal sub judice - why on earth would the police leak this sensational piece of evidence - to what end . Especialy withn the new guy coming on board

Is it to flush out the rest of the Tapas 9 ? - . It seems that if the evidence is good and they have eye witnesses to back it up , ie the staff , then it would be more than enough to arrest the Tapas - get them back to Portugal for questioning - maybe that will happen

Something just doesnt seem right - but I have ceased to be surprised about what is being written on this case now

ITA Gord, the police have had this information for some time, why make a big deal now? I think it is a ruse to flush someone out!

 

[april4sky]

wow - well another scenario .

From what I can see is that all the reports of all the children being together stem from an article by 24 Horas - which quotes a unamed source within the Portugese police .

Now I have no idea of the merits of this latest theory - It could be true - God alone only knows


What I cant understand is after all the flack the Police have taken regarding leaks - loosing two of their senior investigatiors , and with the laws of secrecy in Portugal sub judice - why on earth would the police leak this sensational piece of evidence - to what end . Especialy withn the new guy coming on board

Is it to flush out the rest of the Tapas 9 ? - . It seems that if the evidence is good and they have eye witnesses to back it up , ie the staff , then it would be more than enough to arrest the Tapas - get them back to Portugal for questioning - maybe that will happen

Something just doesnt seem right - but I have ceased to be surprised about what is being written on this case now

I agree gord.

It just gets curiouser and curiouser.

I have ceased to be surprised by all the awful things written...and believed.

From the start the PLE didn’t protect, or properly investigate the crime scene. Didn’t accept the help offered to them for many weeks.
Deliberately leaked malicious rumours to the press.
They then talked up the DNA results......only to backtrack later.
The PLE have acted throughout this investigation in a completely unprofessional way.
Two PLE Senior Investigators who were in charge of the investigation, and are now gone, have themselves been charged with serious crimes!!!! What a mess.

I just hope the new man in charge is someone who can work the miracle this case needs.

And if there is "no" proof that Madeleine is dead...include searching for her again as part of his investigation.

 

[gord]

ITA Gord, the police have had this information for some time, why make a big deal now? I think it is a ruse to flush someone out!

if that is what they are doing then it is a pretty high risk strategy - leaking critical information in the hope that someone coughs up and admits all .

I am no police officer , but if I was in charge I would have gathered all the evidence , make it as fireproof as possible - absolutely clear - then show it to a judge - get an arrest warrant and get the people out there - the Tapas people etc . If this new story is true then the Tapas colleagues are guilty of at the very least obstruction an investigation to 2nd degree murder - very serious charges

I would not be giving information on a daily basis to a journalist and the waiting to see what turns up

but who am i to judge ??