Heart Shaped Sticker And Duct Tape #3

[christee]

There are a few things I hope just not released yet, but mostly I think it is wishful thinking on my part. Staying with sticker and remains site for a moment: that was a very comprehensive and detailed list right down to piece of used gum and small pieces of rubbish. I think in that case not including something vital would be lying. There is hope that complete chunks of evidence have not been released, but not items within a full disclosure.
Having said that, then there is plenty of potential for more details on the items we know about. We have seen very few actual results at all. I still think Duct Tape and/or heart sticker will win "Evidence of The Year" award. Not only link KC absolutely, but show bizarre and unusual component sufficient to earn DP! I hope so anyway.
There are other tests on many items. I can't list them all, but some spring to mind KC's shoes from Pontiac, KC's clothes, the "horse and fence"? the used chewing gum, gator aid bottle etc etc etc.

PS We all wait with antici.....
pation for what the actual roll of the stainless slteel kitchen knife is in all of this?

Ok, stick with me..
I mentioned other unreleased evidence wondering if Heart/Tape could be part of that along with other hopeful evidence you mentioned.

R U saying that if evidence has been fully disclosed (to SA?) then it must be released to defense? (or defence)

Oh and yet another question same subject different brain pattern:
Don't remember reading in docs if Heart/Mat was found exposed to elements, in a bag or with other items...How's your memory on this?

 

[Rumpole]

Ok, stick with me..
I mentioned other unreleased evidence wondering if Heart/Tape could be part of that along with other hopeful evidence you mentioned.

R U saying that if evidence has been fully disclosed (to SA?) then it must be released to defense? (or defence)

Oh and yet another question same subject different brain pattern:
Don't remember reading in docs if Heart/Mat was found exposed to elements, in a bag or with other items...How's your memory on this?

Memory is: Heart on matt found loose, near fence.
Details:
Piece of cardboard mat with pink raised heart shaped material, Baseline marker L6, J-60053 item #11, To FBI No.Q-188. Collected Date:18/12/2008. Docs.p 3641


I am saying that once prosecution decide/are forced to release discovery and they provide a full list I do not think they could get away with lying or keping schtum about an item. However they can, and have, released evidence of things found at remains site, but not released results of tests.

 

[fortytwo]

Here's my "most likely to get whipped" question of the day: is it possible LE released Heart/Mat pic but did not release pic of Heart sticker that fell from duct tape?

:couch:

:doh:ther_beatingA_Dead:whip2::whip:


I guess it is POSSIBLE, but..... would be tantamount to breaking rules about being upfront with discovery.

Love the Smilies HP-I deserve all of them

Is there a time limit on being "upfront"?

Would it be breaking the rules of Discovery if they're just "delaying" release of Heart/Tape?

My vast knowledge of Florida law what I have got from reading WS says that LE can delay evidence that is part of ongoing investigation but here LE is releasing all maner of similar stuff, so would I think have to be classified as deception (lying). LE specified a residue on tape and a sticker at remains site in warrant application, so a tricky extra sticker not shown would amount to lying to Judge? Not a good move?

By now, I'm sure it's obvious I love to ask "what if" questions so, here's another:

What if Judge knows abt Heart/Tape sticker and has ok'd the delay?

It should be pointed out that we have seen nothing from the M.E.'s office released to the public via discovery. All we have developed from that source is inferred from other docs (e.g. FBI reports, etc.). This includes the info about the sticker residue.

Could it be hypothesized that after the FBI lab's discovery of residue that the evidence removed from the site by the M.E. was re-examined for sticker detritus? Certainly.

Has the judge involved himself with the question of the release of info from that source? Yes, at least as far as photos are concerned. What other involvement can only be conjectured.

How long can LE run out the 'ongoing investigation' clock? I don't know, but but I'm guessing that as long as defense has a 'reasonable' amount of time to review the material before it's presented in court then the spirit of the discovery rule has been met.

ETA: I wanted to expand, for christee, on my first sentence. A large body of site evidence, the bones themselves, the duct tape found on the remains, the plastic bags and laundry bag, and who knows what all else was removed by the Medical Examiner's office. We have not seen any docs released concerning any of this as itemized evidence in the same fashion as the 'heart shaped sticker', etc., with evidence tag numbers and all the rest.

 

[Rumpole]

We have heard from FBI labs that "no stickers or sticker fragments were observed on items Q62 to Q64"(duct tape pieces) Docs p3798.

PS Doncha just wish that instead of 735 items of evidence, they just gave KC a "Q" number and sent her to FBI labs to be examined and tested and poked with sharp things? oke:

 

[christee]

Memory is: Heart on matt found loose, near fence.
Details:
Piece of cardboard mat with pink raised heart shaped material, Baseline marker L6, J-60053 item #11, To FBI No.Q-188. Collected Date:18/12/2008. Docs.p 3641


I am saying that once prosecution decide/are forced to release discovery and they provide a full list I do not think they could get away with lying or keping schtum about an item. However they can, and have, released evidence of things found at remains site, but not released results of tests.

The reason I asked abt where Heart/Mat was found is because the core of Mat board is made from, (maybe not limited to), wood pulp and/or cotton fiber pulp(I believe our Mat/Heart is this kind). There are various materials used on the top layer of this core- paper, suede, linen, silk, metallics, etc. I believe our Heart/Mat is White paper and/or cotton core abt 1/16th inch thick, w/textured paper layer on surface, and even though highly degraded, somehow that piece of Mat with the sticker just happened to be the piece that managed to survived the elements!

Whew, I just put a lot of thought into that!

"Keping Schtum"?

I'm unfamiliar with your legalese!
Just kiddin' lol

 

[FaerieB]

PS Doncha just wish that instead of 735 items of evidence, they just gave KC a "Q" number and sent her to FBI labs to be examined and tested and poked with sharp things? oke:

Yes, yes I do. Unfortunately, that would probably be in contravention of the Geneva Conventions.

 

[Rumpole]

*SNIP*

"Keping Schtum"?

I'm unfamiliar with your legalese!
Just kiddin' lol

Oi vey! :doh:

And you call yourself an American?

From Florida, already!

 

[christee]

It should be pointed out that we have seen nothing from the M.E.'s office released to the public via discovery. All we have developed from that source is inferred from other docs (e.g. FBI reports, etc.). This includes the info about the sticker residue.

Could it be hypothesized that after the FBI lab's discovery of residue that the evidence removed from the site by the M.E. was re-examined for sticker detritus? Certainly.

Has the judge involved himself with the question of the release of info from that source? Yes, at least as far as photos are concerned. What other involvement can only be conjectured.

How long can LE run out the 'ongoing investigation' clock? I don't know, but but I'm guessing that as long as defense has a 'reasonable' amount of time to review the material before it's presented in court then the spirit of the discovery rule has been met.

ETA: I wanted to expand, for christee, on my first sentence. A large body of site evidence, the bones themselves, the duct tape found on the remains, the plastic bags and laundry bag, and who knows what all else was removed by the Medical Examiner's office. We have not seen any docs released concerning any of this as itemized evidence in the same fashion as the 'heart shaped sticker', etc., with evidence tag numbers and all the rest.

question abt your last paragraph: Does seeing Heart sticker docs and no docs on other evidence mean anything?

 

[christee]

Oi vey! :doh:

And you call yourself an American?

From Florida, already!

Oh you're sneaky? I've never claimed to be a Floridian!

Maybe being 1/2 Brit 1/2 American explains things- we are a rather Mixed-up breed

 

[Rumpole]

Oh you're sneaky? I've never claimed to be a Floridian!

Maybe being 1/2 Brit 1/2 American explains things- we are a rather Mixed-up breed

Whatever part of US, there are some great Yiddish phrases, such as "keeping schtum"

I think they rub off from watching "Judge Judy"

 

[christee]

Whatever part of US, there are some great Yiddish phrases, such as "keeping schtum"

I think they rub off from watching "Judge Judy"

I can see that on Judge Judy!

 

[fortytwo]

We have heard from FBI labs that "no stickers or sticker fragments were observed on items Q62 to Q64"(duct tape pieces) Docs p3798.

(snip)

Yes, we have. I agree.

These were sent by the M.E.'s office, and not listed in any LE evidence report we've seen yet. We don't have any idea what else was sent to the FBI by the M.E. because the only way we've had to track that so far is to see the results from the FBI released in discovery.

We haven't heard anything about any other items that were taken by M.E. and not sent to the FBI.

We most especially haven't heard anything at all about the piece of Henkel tape taken from the scene by LE (and not the M.E.) that we know was also sent to the FBI.

In short, I think it can be safely surmised that a great deal of potentially damning evidence almost certainly remains to be revealed.

 

[Rumpole]

It should be pointed out that we have seen nothing from the M.E.'s office released to the public via discovery. All we have developed from that source is inferred from other docs (e.g. FBI reports, etc.). This includes the info about the sticker residue.

Could it be hypothesized that after the FBI lab's discovery of residue that the evidence removed from the site by the M.E. was re-examined for sticker detritus? Certainly.

Has the judge involved himself with the question of the release of info from that source? Yes, at least as far as photos are concerned. What other involvement can only be conjectured.

How long can LE run out the 'ongoing investigation' clock? I don't know, but but I'm guessing that as long as defense has a 'reasonable' amount of time to review the material before it's presented in court then the spirit of the discovery rule has been met.

ETA: I wanted to expand, for christee, on my first sentence. A large body of site evidence, the bones themselves, the duct tape found on the remains, the plastic bags and laundry bag, and who knows what all else was removed by the Medical Examiner's office. We have not seen any docs released concerning any of this as itemized evidence in the same fashion as the 'heart shaped sticker', etc., with evidence tag numbers and all the rest.

Actually the items that went from remains site to ME are itemized?

Hair mass Evidence marker E ME
Five hair portions from hair mass Evidence marker E ME
Fifteen hair roots from hair mass Evidence marker E ME
Debris from skull Evidence marker E ME
Tibia Evidence marker E ME
Duct tape across mouth area Evidence marker E ME
Duct tape across mouth area (?) Evidence marker E ME
Duct tape across mouth area (?) Evidence marker E ME
Human skull Evidence marker E ME
gray pieces of possible training pant/diaper Evidence marker E ME
size 24M shorts Evidence marker E ME
blanket that appeared to have the classic "Winnie the Pooh" design with "Piglet" Evidence marker E ME
pink letters that spelled the words: big, trouble, small, comes Evidence marker E ME
torn black plastic bag Evidence marker E ME
whitish canvas type bag Evidence marker E ME
size 3T tag on a strip of cloth Evidence marker E ME
Ulna shaft ME
Fibula shaft ME
Humerus shaft ME
Small bones ME
Small bones ME
Radial shaft ME

 

[christee]

(snip)

Yes, we have. I agree.

These were sent by the M.E.'s office, and not listed in any LE evidence report we've seen yet. We don't have any idea what else was sent to the FBI by the M.E. because the only way we've had to track that so far is to see the results from the FBI released in discovery.

We haven't heard anything about any other items that were taken by M.E. and not sent to the FBI.

We most especially haven't heard anything at all about the piece of Henkel tape taken from the scene by LE (and not the M.E.) that we know was also sent to the FBI.

In short, I think it can be safely surmised that a great deal of potentially damning evidence almost certainly remains to be revealed.

Oooh, goody, I hope so!

Wouldn't that be just AWFUL for KC!

:HBwhiteflag: :deal: :gavel: :behindbar

 

[christee]

Actually the items that went from remains site to ME are itemized?

Hair mass Evidence marker E ME
Five hair portions from hair mass Evidence marker E ME
Fifteen hair roots from hair mass Evidence marker E ME
Debris from skull Evidence marker E ME
Tibia Evidence marker E ME
Duct tape across mouth area Evidence marker E ME
Duct tape across mouth area (?) Evidence marker E ME
Duct tape across mouth area (?) Evidence marker E ME
Human skull Evidence marker E ME
gray pieces of possible training pant/diaper Evidence marker E ME
size 24M shorts Evidence marker E ME
blanket that appeared to have the classic "Winnie the Pooh" design with "Piglet" Evidence marker E ME
pink letters that spelled the words: big, trouble, small, comes Evidence marker E ME
torn black plastic bag Evidence marker E ME
whitish canvas type bag Evidence marker E ME
size 3T tag on a strip of cloth Evidence marker E ME
Ulna shaft ME
Fibula shaft ME
Humerus shaft ME
Small bones ME
Small bones ME
Radial shaft ME

Were all these items found just at remains site or from all over search area? Was any of items listed found with or near Heart/Mat?

 

[fortytwo]

question abt your last paragraph: Does seeing Heart sticker docs and no docs on other evidence mean anything?

At the time that Caylee's remains were discovered the M.E's office took charge of the remains themselves and removed them from the scene. At this point, apparently, they left the jurisdiction of the OCSO. Items from these remains, including but possibly not limited to the infamous duct tape were forwarded to the FBI by the M.E.'s office.

The rest of the site was combed over by LE. We know a great deal about the evidence subsequently found by them.

The plastic heart sticker we know was found on the next-to-last day of the site search, 30 to 40 feet away from the remains themselves, separated by dense underbrush, and relatively close to the debris of one or more old picture frames.

In short, we really don't know much at all about what was found with the remains proper. Very little has been disclosed. We know quite a bit more about the rest of the search, but can be certain that we have not been told everything.

 

[fortytwo]

Actually the items that went from remains site to ME are itemized?

Hair mass Evidence marker E ME
Five hair portions from hair mass Evidence marker E ME
Fifteen hair roots from hair mass Evidence marker E ME
Debris from skull Evidence marker E ME
Tibia Evidence marker E ME
Duct tape across mouth area Evidence marker E ME
Duct tape across mouth area (?) Evidence marker E ME
Duct tape across mouth area (?) Evidence marker E ME
Human skull Evidence marker E ME
gray pieces of possible training pant/diaper Evidence marker E ME
size 24M shorts Evidence marker E ME
blanket that appeared to have the classic "Winnie the Pooh" design with "Piglet" Evidence marker E ME
pink letters that spelled the words: big, trouble, small, comes Evidence marker E ME
torn black plastic bag Evidence marker E ME
whitish canvas type bag Evidence marker E ME
size 3T tag on a strip of cloth Evidence marker E ME
Ulna shaft ME
Fibula shaft ME
Humerus shaft ME
Small bones ME
Small bones ME
Radial shaft ME

My apologies, Herc. I sacrificed clarity for brevity. Never a wise idea.

The point I was trying to make is that from our point of view the documentation of evidence by the ME has appeared differently than that of the OCSO.

By way of example, each piece of evidence sent to the FBI by LE was first assigned a 'tag' and 'item' number which we saw. When it was to be forwarded to the FBI it was also assigned a 'Q' designation, which we also saw. The FBI lab assigned yet another 'Q' designation of it's own.

We did not get to see any of this progression concerning the tape found with the remains, only the mention that it came from the M.E.'s office in the FBI report of the lab results.

 

[christee]

Don't mean to do a 180 degree change, but have a question abt these pics
posted by Enzeder #849 this thread:

HP, do you recall these pics?

Is it me or does the small pic (1st pic) look like the cutout border backing of the Hologram heart? (3rd pic)

1st pic is a detail from 2nd pic

Did KC use the curvy border of Hologram sticker as another sticker of sorts! Wasn't there another Hologram sticker cut from the whole pg? I'm gonna try to find it quick!

 

[Rumpole]

My apologies, Herc. I sacrificed clarity for brevity. Never a wise idea.

The point I was trying to make is that from our point of view the documentation of evidence by the ME has appeared differently than that of the OCSO.

By way of example, each piece of evidence sent to the FBI by LE was first assigned a 'tag' and 'item' number which we saw. When it was to be forwarded to the FBI it was also assigned a 'Q' designation, which we also saw. The FBI lab assigned yet another 'Q' designation of it's own.

We did not get to see any of this progression concerning the tape found with the remains, only the mention that it came from the M.E.'s office in the FBI report of the lab results.

Yes in the list of things that were gathered by/sent to ME no ident number except those items that went to FBI labs and were assigned FBI number.

However, the initial discussion regarding a spare lucky sticker not revealed yet is yet again thwarted, I think, because it would have been noted in the descriptions of ME items.

 

[Rumpole]

Don't mean to do a 180 degree change, but have a question abt these pics
posted by Enzeder #849 this thread:

HP, do you recall these pics?

Is it me or does the small pic (1st pic) look like the cutout border backing of the Hologram heart? (3rd pic)

1st pic is a detail from 2nd pic

KC used the curvy border of Hologram sticker as another sticker of sorts! Wasn't there another Hologram sticker cut from the whole pg? I'm gonna try to find it quick!

I would question the blowup?