IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #26

[Marilynilpa]

I'm trying to look up info on "staging". There isn't much with respect to statistical data on it. What I can find seems to imply that it's rare. Regardless, I still don't believe the girls were taken close to home and then the bikes were staged at the lake by the perp(s). It seems that would be way more trouble than its worth in an abduction case. Not only would it be risky, but also time-consuming. If you thought ahead enough to stage the bikes to throw off LE, I would assume you would also think ahead enough to wipe down the bikes after you staged them in case you left some prints. Wouldn't it be way easier to snatch the kids right off the bikes and take off?

For whatever reason, I believe the girls rode to the lake. I believe they were snatched from the lake. And IF there was any staging of the bikes, it happened then. But I just cannot see those bikes being transported a mile in a vehicle and then carried to where they were eventually found.

I agree with you. I have a hard time understanding why someone would risk staging the bikes. I don't completely rule it out, but to me it doesn't make sense.

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

Bikes at brovan at approx 12:23, and at the gate at 2:00 PM.

Propped up at the gate at 2:00 PM??

 

[JaimeInLA]

I'm trying to look up info on "staging". There isn't much with respect to statistical data on it. What I can find seems to imply that it's rare. Regardless, I still don't believe the girls were taken close to home and then the bikes were staged at the lake by the perp(s). It seems that would be way more trouble than its worth in an abduction case. Not only would it be risky, but also time-consuming. If you thought ahead enough to stage the bikes to throw off LE, I would assume you would also think ahead enough to wipe down the bikes after you staged them in case you left some prints. Wouldn't it be way easier to snatch the kids right off the bikes and take off?

For whatever reason, I believe the girls rode to the lake. I believe they were snatched from the lake. And IF there was any staging of the bikes, it happened then. But I just cannot see those bikes being transported a mile in a vehicle and then carried to where they were eventually found.

IMO, it's not all that uncommon. Especially in cases where parents kill their kids. They almost always stage the scene, dump the body, and claim the child was abducted. Think Casey Anthony, Haleigh Cummings, Lisa Irwin.... I could probably name a dozen. If you want people to think your kid was abducted, you have to do something to make them LOOK abducted.

(speaking in general terms. Not saying that is necessarily what happend in this case.)

 

[Marilynilpa]

Propped up at the gate at 2:00 PM??

That's a good question. Unfortunately, I don't believe we have an answer to that question.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

IMO, it's not all that uncommon. Especially in cases where parents kill their kids. They almost always stage the scene, dump the body, and claim the child was abducted. Think Casey Anthony, Haleigh Cummings, Lisa Irwin.... I could probably name a dozen. If you want people to think your kid was abducted, you have to do something to make them LOOK abducted.

(speaking in general terms. Not saying that is necessarily what happend in this case.)

Perhaps I should have stated "random" kidnapping. If the girls had gone with a family member or family friend, it would kind of change everything.

 

[Dr. Know?]

I wonder if the bikes were overlapping facing north on the trail, one laying on the other? Or were they seperate & just a few feet apart. Sorry if I missed that answer.

 

[SapphireSteel]

"Staging" sounds fancy and complicated but in fact, it is very, very common.

All it means is that something has been altered after the fact.

It could be something as small as moving a hand off a trigger, or as large as moving bikes around.

It happens in a very high percentage of crimes so I don't see why it can't have happened here.

If I was going to fake an abduction, I'd make sure I faked it well away from cctv.

A Lake fits the bill perfectly.

If I wished to make it appear like a random abduction, I would choose a part of that lake nearest the highway, yet unviewable from the highway.

If I wished to make it appear like they could've gone into the water, I'd place the bikes just so.

I would have it all planned out, ahead of time. I would also have gone to the trouble of looking around town for cctvs and other things that might identify me, and choose routes that avoid them.

It's a shame I didn't check the route the girls were on though because that blew a hole in the story, straight away.

Likewise, I could not possibly have forseen that Mr G would come cycling along, right when I was setting all this up.

^^^^speculation only.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I'm trying to look up info on "staging". There isn't much with respect to statistical data on it. What I can find seems to imply that it's rare. Regardless, I still don't believe the girls were taken close to home and then the bikes were staged at the lake by the perp(s). It seems that would be way more trouble than its worth in an abduction case. Not only would it be risky, but also time-consuming. If you thought ahead enough to stage the bikes to throw off LE, I would assume you would also think ahead enough to wipe down the bikes after you staged them in case you left some prints. Wouldn't it be way easier to snatch the kids right off the bikes and take off?

For whatever reason, I believe the girls rode to the lake. I believe they were snatched from the lake. And IF there was any staging of the bikes, it happened then. But I just cannot see those bikes being transported a mile in a vehicle and then carried to where they were eventually found.

Until the girls' bodies were found, I thought there may have been a (small) chance the bicycles were staged.

Since the girls' bodies were found, I am now convinced there was no staging.

If the girls' bodies had been found close to Evansdale (within a 5 mile radius), I would still be considering staging. But they were found well outside the search perimeter, which indicates to me that the perp's intended method was to grab and run. As long as the perp had 5-10 minutes to get out of town, he was out of danger of immediate apprehension.

It would have taken at least 10 minutes to grab the girls, transport the bikes to Meyers Lake and stage them. What reason would he have to spend that 10 minutes in town when he could be hightailing it out of town to a place he knew was unlikely to be visited by humans that day?

Then add in that search dogs apparently did indicate on the girls' scent at the scene and that some witness(es) placed the girls on Gilbert as late as 1:00 pm. It just seems to me that the evidence points towards the girls being abducted from Meyers Lake.

 

[carbuff]

Several people have mentioned how long it's been since the bodies were found, and we haven't heard anything. But it's barely been a month; any testing that's being done on evidence isn't likely to even be completed for several weeks. I'm sure LE is following leads and evaluating evidence and everything they can do, but it's likely that they mainly have to do the same thing as we do: wait.

I'm inclined to think the complete lack of information means that they do have a case in mind. If they needed the pubic's help, they'd ask for it.

I hope.

 

[foxbluff]

I, too, always like to hear SapphireSteel's input. She is one of my five faves on WS and, IMHO, is the best of anybody in being able to keep a thread moving... even in the "dry spells" onboard.

And, unlike some of us, I think she does an excellent job of stating that her posts are in her opinion.

This is in my opinion only, of course, but perhaps if you ask nicely SapphireSteel will let you borrow her little Cow Smiley. lol

bumping

 

[chelsea6]

IMO, it's not all that uncommon. Especially in cases where parents kill their kids. They almost always stage the scene, dump the body, and claim the child was abducted. Think Casey Anthony, Haleigh Cummings, Lisa Irwin.... I could probably name a dozen. If you want people to think your kid was abducted, you have to do something to make them LOOK abducted.

(speaking in general terms. Not saying that is necessarily what happend in this case.)

So.. going by the above the bikes could have been staged the night before? I don't see a time when someone didn't see the bikes, it's like they were always there. Moo

 

[Dr. Know?]

I'd really like to know how the bikes were found. I don't think Abben was in charge when he walked up or was just put in charge and arrived at Meyer's lake that day at about 4 or 5? I forget what the time was. tbh. It was the city of Evansdale jurisdiction maybe for the first hour or so? Didn't he say one had a kickstand down and the other didn't have a kickstand or was that Tammy or did I make that up?

Random picture. Two bikes facing north heading East as an example.

 

[foxbluff]

I'm already over it. I think it just rubbed me wrong because I don't want to see anyone's actions as giving up on the girls, regardless of their frustrations or stamina.

As for statements as fact, I think it was just a general feeling in some short responses that discount others' theories quickly. I will just retract that because I don't have time to look into it and provide examples.

BTW, I am currently sharing similar theories as you.

BBM - IMHO, that's really big of you!

 

[foxbluff]

Who are your other 4 faves?!?!?

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

:great:

 

[georger]

BBM
Regarding the surveillance video time, and how it was off by 8 minutes, I'm sure that LE circled back around to confirm that the time was or was not off, and that is maybe the 12:23 time confirmed. In other words, suppose that the Cornbelt guy mentioned that the time was off, so LE went back, and found that it was not off just 8 minutes, but more, and that's the time that they confirmed. The Cornbelt guy had already been interviewed, and they can't take that back, but he could have been mistaken about how far off the time. So, again, I'm assuming that LE has the correct time properly documented.

Does the clock auto reset for Day Light Savings time?

 

[NWLady]

I found one for 7/28-8/4/2012. Search google sometimes they show up. It doesn't have much. I'll try searching some more.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/102018092...epartment-Arrest-Log-July-28-to-August-4-2012

eta, there's other arrest logs on that sight, scribd where you might find it too.

Thank you! I will let you know if I'm able to find anything.

 

[NWLady]

Yes that is the article! (RSO #107020) And there is another article I found and the RSO actually commented on the article if you scroll down.. it is posted from his Facebook acct as well. You can see he is into hunting and biking if you look around. Let me get the link:

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Five-Arrested-In-Black-Hawk-County-For-Making-Meth-121024924.html

Thank you for your post...I did look around at his FB page and some real interesting pics, especially the one. :waitasec: I find the one pic rather odd.

He is a RSO and appears as if he moved away from E'dale shortly after the two girls were abducted.

 

[NWLady]

So.. going by the above the bikes could have been staged the night before? I don't see a time when someone didn't see the bikes, it's like they were always there. Moo

And if it wasn't for the surveillance video that supposedly shows the girls Friday, July 13, then we wouldn't even know for sure when exactly the last time was that they were seen (by anyone other than family)

 

[Dr. Know?]

Thank you! I will let you know if I'm able to find anything.

Let me know if you can't find it. Somedays, not finding info is a good thing in a case. What disappears that might be evidence possibly, the law doesn't think we are on a need to know basis somedays. Fine with me. I just keep track of what is missing from the news.

Here I think, is just a small town that has had their logs copied to another site possibly and not all were copied on the one I mentioned.

jmo

 

[superbee]

I'm glad to see you are still here.

I've never felt comfortable with the staging theory either. I know there are persuasive arguments in favor of that - otto, in particular, makes a strong argument for staging.

But it seems like an unnecessary risk for someone to take, IMO. To me the only point in staging the bikes would be to make LE believe the girls had been there. Why would the perp care about that - he had taken the girls, apparently unseen by anyone, so why put himself at risk by taking the bikes to the lake? Why not just take the girls wherever he planned to take them and dispose of the bikes there? There are lakes, rivers, cornfields, pastures, wooded areas, vacant lots, dumpsters - all kinds of places where two bikes could be dumped where the perp wouldn't be seen. Why take the risk of going to Meyers Lake once he had the girls?

I realize the times don't "click", but they never have to me. It seems the more info we get, the more confusing it becomes to me. Even if I assume that every time released by LE is correct (12:15, 12:23, 12:30-1:00, 2:00), it does nothing to clarify things in my mind.

Based on what I've read, heard and deduced, I believe the girls DID make it to Meyers Lake that day. I believe they were there for a reason other than just biking around, and their abduction was not random. JMO

Other than that, I'm clueless.

If the 2 bikes were staged, could it have been as some kind of signal to someone?