ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 18

[BlueTunes]

I get that but they spent a lot of time looking for that murder weapon. What specific evidence did they discover on scene that lead them to believe that the killer coveted it? Simply not finding the weapon isn't going to elicit a statement like that.

My opinion.

JMO The killers knife may have been dull. LE may be able to tell based on the slice marks on the victim. Dull knives suggest multiple uses. Leading to LE to suspect he’s had it awhile. Hence he may have coveted it.

 

[WildWest]

Lahta County Coroner Cathy Mabbut.
From post by @Seattle1 today.
"Perhaps an elected coroner without MD credentials would respond to a reporter but no practicing professional would ever affirm red staining on a foundation wall was blood without first confirming by scientific testing. IMO, similar to the mayor and prosecutor, I think the coroner was probably asked to stop speaking to the media."
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Thanks @Seattle1 for your post, & agreeing w your line of thought.
Her comments in vid I saw ~two weeks ago seemed, well, unusual (unprofessional?) coming from mouth of a County Coroner who is practicing attorney (?) to make to media. Sorry, no link. JM2Cents.

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From Lahta County, ID. gov website, w my bolding.
"Cathy Mabbutt was first elected coroner in November 2006. She graduated as registered nurse (RN) from Sacred Heart School of Nursing and worked at Gritman Medical Center Emergency Department for many years. She graduated with B.S. in political science from University of Idaho and then completed law degree from the University of Idaho in 2001."

And sure enough, law firm website w one of 15+ testimonials names Cathy Mabbutt and Nick (husband? father? brother? uncle? IDK). Bare bones website w two tabs, "Testimonials" & "Contacts" w Moscow address & phone.

Mabbutt Law Offices - Google Search

yellowpages listing shows: "General Practice Attorneys, Attorneys, Criminal Law Attorneys"​

Mabbutt Law Office in Moscow , ID

Share your own tips, photos and more- tell us what you think of this business!

www.yellowpages.com

​

I have to remark, I recall watching local news clips from Idaho here, on the Kelsey Berreth case, and I was taken aback how different it was from Colorado news. Quite unrefined from what I was used to.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think he was referring to specifically information gleaned from the phone. I'm not certain but that's how I interpreted it.

His interview was very hard to interpret but I blame that on the interviewer, she didn't ask him to clarify anything really.

yes ambiguous interview & answers

Father of slain Idaho student: 'I'm not going nowhere' until the killer is off the streets | Fox News Video

Steve Goncalves, father of Kaylee Goncalves, one of the victims of the University of Idaho murders, speaks out about the case on 'The Story with Martha MacCallum.'

www.foxnews.com

 

[PolarButterflie]

I thought I read that Kaylee was moving out maybe her bed was gone already and so why she may have been sleeping with Maddie!

Based on the photos posted in this article, it doesn't look like Kaylee had moved out as of yet. I seriously doubt she would have taken her bed and left her computer.....

Eerie photos reveal inside the Idaho quadruple murder house

DailyMail.com pictures show the inside of the home in Moscow, Idaho, where four students were murdered.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[CityKid]

MPD Homicide Update 12/1/2022
https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24808/12-01-22-Moscow-Homicide-Update

EBM: clearly the earlier comments that only X was on the lease were incorrect as this update establishes.

I thought it was that X was the first on the lease, not the only one? I'd be surprised if a college-adjacent landlord would allow one student to be the only person on a lease for $2,000+ per month.

 

[SuziQ]

What you have described above is RANDOM.
Otherwise going by what you're saying, means everyone who gets murdered is a target. Which they are not.

There's targeted and there's random. There is no combining the two.

Random implies not knowing the victims or anything about them - a complete impulse murder. Fate, roll of the dice etc.

Targeting implies a level of knowing something about them, or their lives - OR the perp having chosen them for some reason, however small.

Victims are targeted by random perps that do not know them, all the time. Targeting does not mean they know the victim. Me and my places of work have been targeted for bank robberies. Me and the perps did not know each other. Imo.

 

[SuziQ]

I thought it was that X was the first on the lease, not the only one? I'd be surprised if a college-adjacent landlord would allow one student to be the only person on a lease for $2,000+ per month.

My DD lived in off campus housing. The LLC rented each room independently.

 

[r3d-ros3]

Re: speculation about the 6th roommate actually being a parent or co-signer, a co-signer on a college rental is not typically on the lease. There are often co-signers or "guarantors" with college apartments because most students don't technically have enough income to cover rent on their own. Probably, it was the student's name on the lease (not to say they were involved in any way, just seeing this come up on the thread and I wanted to address it)

I agree that the fact that the 6th roommate is not included as one the "cleared surviving roommates" is insignificant, probably oversight, and maybe they weren't living there anymore. But a parent or co-signer was unlikely to be that name on the lease.

 

[EmmieA]

The potential of the “house” being targeted is very interesting to me. IMO that means there was evidence in the house outside of the act of the murders that wouldn’t have existed if they had gone, for example, into my home…. But wasn’t strong enough evidence to specifically point to one or more individuals.

For example (and just for example, not at all what I think), if they smashed a picture on a dresser with a bunch of girls in their sorority letters, it would seem targeted, but could have been against the girls specifically OR that they targeted the house because all girls where in a sorority.

Would love to know what the evidence is…

Interesting, I hadn’t considered the evidence angle; that makes sense. I was thinking the house itself could be targeted simply because it was an east target, as in the killer knew the sliding doors were frequently left unlocked or something along those lines.
(I don’t know if the doors were left unlocked, just an example and my opinion)

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Apologies that this is broken up this way, but I wanted to address various points and didn't want to get lost in a rambling wall of text.

I do think the killer might have had a mental health condition (or will claim to anyway), but I do not believe that he genuinely suffers from major mental illness.

I am sorry, but I think you are wrong here. Disordered thinking was my way of stating in laymen's terms that the person is not normal. ALL DSM diagnoses involved disordered thinking. Period.

This is what I do for a living...

Delusions, lapses in reality functioning, compulsions, inability to have second order processing into one's own behavior - all of these are "disordered thinking." I can't possibly list all the versions of it (my list of synonyms for use in SM is now at about 200 terms).

Sure, but there is no disordered thinking diagnosis and that's the point. Disordered thinking is the symptom - not diagnosis - of a larger mental health condition. That's a very important distinction because disordered thinking does not occur in a vacuum.

Mental illnesses have no relationship to legitimacy/the law. However, as a mental health researcher who has 40 years of experience (my area is field diagnostics), I will say that NO ONE who does what this killer did is a normal person. Therefore, there are symptoms in DSM that apply. I could list many. However, for the purposes of this discussion (so far), I am only going to mention the ones for which LE/MSM have provided evidence.

Not being "normal" does not equate to mental illness. This is very important because this is a misconception that exists in the world and has led to stigmatization of people with mental illness for decades. This killer was not normal, I agree. But antisocial personality, which is what the evidence that's been released suggests most, is a far cry from something like delusional disorder or schizophrenia, both of which exist with pathologic disordered thinking.

I really haven't seen any evidence from LE or what's been reported in MSM that the killer had a diagnosable mental health condition outside possibly a personality disorder.

Where are you getting the idea that mentally ill people do not have organizational skill and executive function?

Again, it's what I do for a living. And I didn't say that mentally ill people do not have organization skills and executive function. Not at all. What I said was "I also don't believe a person with legitimate mental illness, the symptom of which is disordered thinking, could carry out this crime. A crime like this requires organizational skills and executive function that individuals with severe mental illness often lack when they decompensate."

The part where I said the symptom of which is disordered thinking is crucial to the statement because there are a lot of different kinds of mental illness. Disordered thinking, as defined in a pathological sense in the DSM would only apply to a few. People with those particular illnesses - schizophrenia, schizoaffective, etc. - tend to lack the executive function skills (which includes organizational skills) needed to plan when they decompensate. This is what causes the impairment that often leads to self-neglect.

There are mentally ill surgeons and generals; there are mentally ill presidents and CEO's, there are mentally ill actors and creatives.

I know, I treat them. I'm not basing my post on my opinion. I'm legitimately basing it on medical fact.

As to what I'm trying to say about DSM criteria and this particular perp, here are some possible symptoms. all of them are in DSM and all are disordered thinking. Keep in mind that I am speculating merely on the facts as known in this case, and the work of FBI profilers who have spoken about this case (possible symptoms of this perp):

• Suspiciousness and a general fear of others’ intentions.
• Persistent, unusual thoughts or beliefs.
• Difficulty thinking clearly.
• Withdrawing from family or friends.
• A significant decline in self-care.
• • They do not desire or enjoy close relationships, even with family members.
  • They choose solitary jobs and activities.
  • They take pleasure in few activities, including sex.
  • They have no close friends, except first-degree relatives.
  • They have difficulty relating to others.
  • They are indifferent to praise or criticism.
  • They are aloof and show little emotion.
  • They might daydream and/or create vivid fantasies of complex inner lives.
  • Act rashly
  • Be irritable and aggressive
  • Fight or assault other people
  • Break the law and accepted social norms
  • Not care about the safety of others or themselves
  • Not show signs of remorse after hurting someone else
  • Fail to meet money, work, or social duties

But again, those are all symptoms of specific illnesses and the above do not describe just one illness nor are they all present in every illness. I think that's an unfair comparison. The people who kill (like this individual) or otherwise break the law are generally not the same people who walk around suspicious with fears of others intentions. Those who walk around paranoid are generally not the ones who break the law or kill. I think it gives a significantly skewed picture of mental health conditions to lump them together like this because they don't all share those symptoms. As an example, if someone had a seizure disorder, it would be a similarly unfair comparison to compare their symptoms to that of someone with MS. They both involve the brain, but not the same illness. Disordered thinking doesn't apply to all symptoms you've described above.

Having said that, you can certainly few such things as failing to meet one's work or social duties as indicative of a normal way of thinking - but I simply can't get there, for myself. Some of the symptoms are benign (usually) such as extensive daydreaming - but it's still a mental symptom. Excessive daydreaming, especially when not caring about safety and not feeling remorse - those are mental symptoms that lead to criminality.

Do you have a link about excessive daydreaming being implicated in criminality? Not caring about safety and unremorseful describes a personality disorder that has been implicated in criminality, but I don't know of excessive daydreaming to be a symptom of such. I am open to it and would genuinely find it interesting if you can point to me evidence for it?

 

[natsound]

I listened to Mr. Goncalves’ interview with Martha McCallum. As far as the “inkling” statement, he was saying he has an indication that the perpetrator’s behavior footprint was a bit different when it came to his daughter, and it signals to him that his daughter was the target. McCallum then asks him who he’s referring to and he says “the victims”, but I think he misspoke. Did anyone have a different interpretation?

 

[acutename]

I get that but they spent a lot of time looking for that murder weapon. What specific evidence did they discover on scene that lead them to believe that the killer coveted it? Simply not finding the weapon isn't going to elicit a statement like that.
t
My opinion.

between mins 4 and 5, Ms. O'Toole says the same thing-

weapon is the killers possession- s/he does not want to discard it even though many offenders would "get rid of" their weapon so as not to be associated with it.

 

[Curiosa20]

Thank you! I put those same floor plans in one document - to explore how an intruder would move through the house.

Twitter Source

I added the victim's names to the rooms where bodies were found. These look really good!

View attachment 384311
Twitter Source

Great, Otto! Thank you

 

[SluthingAintEasy]

MOO
Catching up, is the forum of the belief that the bedroom doors were locked by the killer after the deed was done, then he vanishes without waking the two other roommates.
Curious if the doors were locked on the way out

My understanding it's thats what happened. That dispells the theory this was a frenzied attack. The killer had to have enough forethought to lock the doors and ensure he wasent dripping blood throughout the house. I don't think they're going to find a bunchbof forensic evidence. Yesd a knife with a finger guard to ensure he didn't cut hands while stabbing. Locked doors didn't leave bloody footprints or doorknobs so roommates would notice. Locked doors. I don't think there will be any forensic evidence. If so it will be very little.

 

[OldCop]

What you have described above is RANDOM.
Otherwise going by what you're saying, means everyone who gets murdered is a target. Which they are not.

There's targeted and there's random. There is no combining the two.

Random implies not knowing the victims or anything about them - a complete impulse murder. Fate, roll of the dice etc.

Targeting implies a level of knowing something about them, or their lives - OR the perp having chosen them for some reason, however small.

But once he or she decides to kill a person even if they didn’t know them or know anything about them, that victim became his target; even if it was only a moment before. The perp chose them out of everyone else in the world.
Of course, we usually think of random vs targeted In a broader sense in that the person knew who he wanted to kill or what house he wanted to enter ahead of time and for a particular reason.
JMO

 

[texashello]

Kaylee was a member of Alpha Phi sorority and Maddie and Xana were members of Pi Beta Phi. Kayleee and Maddie were best friends since 6th grade, why did they pledge different sororities and why did they drop out last semester of the sororities? Just MO0, not sure if it’s related to the case but it could be. Both sororities are on disciplinary probation

University of Idaho victims' sororities on probation for 'health and safety' violations

The two sororities that victims of the quadruple homicide at the University of Idaho belonged to are on disciplinary probation, according to the school.

www.foxnews.com

 

[IceCreamSundae]

I listened to Mr. Goncalves’ interview with Martha McCallum. As far as the “inkling” statement, he was saying he has an indication that the perpetrator’s behavior footprint was a bit different when it came to his daughter, and it signals to him that his daughter was the target. McCallum then asks him who he’s referring to and he says “the victims”, but I think he misspoke. Did anyone have a different interpretation?

You’re saying they know who the killer is?

 

[layer]

JMO The killers knife may have been dull. LE may be able to tell based on the slice marks on the victim. Dull knives suggest multiple uses. Leading to LE to suspect he’s had it awhile. Hence he may have coveted it.

Virtually all the knife guys I know are almost obsessive-compulsive about sharpening and even stropping their blades.

 

[kittythehare]

But once he or she decides to kill a person even if they didn’t know them or know anything about them, that victim became his target; even if it was only a moment before. The perp chose them out of everyone else in the world.
Of course, we usually think of random vs targeted In a broader sense in that the person knew who he wanted to kill or what house he wanted to enter ahead of time and for a particular reason.
JMO

They were all targeted along with all their associations, by definition because they were all murdered and the ripple effect is worldwide.
An act of savagery against humanity makes it so.

 

[natsound]

You’re saying they know who the killer is?

No I’m saying he feels like the killer revealed in some way that his daughter, maybe Maddie too, was the target.