Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *Arrests* #51

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In my life you go to church starting as a toddler to memorize and be able to recite scripture. We have classes kinda like a biblical girls or Boy Scouts club where you get badges , recognition, and “rewards” for being able to cite them back from memory alone . I seriously thought most people experienced was the same.
Scripture and religion were at the foundation of their friendship. They met at church and did podcasts and conferences together. The podcasts and conferences were about spiritual subjects. I'm sure they had had many scriptural discussions in the past. It makes sense that Lori would use that when trying to convince MG of her innocence. She knew that MG valued these things. I don't find it odd either.
 
I don't think it's at all coincidence that LV chose a night when there were other people around.

She is a planner and a risk taker - we know she had a plan to trap Charles, who would have been very wary of her and Alex, especially after Charles found the email to Chad, and that set-up was very risky with the children in the house and all the things that could have gone wrong.

It's been my thinking for a while that she needed to set up a situation where JJ would leave with someone. But not just anyone, it had to be someone who could handle a child with autism.

Her words give us a clue as to her earlier planning, imo (she has a history of giving her schemes away when she gets herself into situations and it's her second nature to point fingers - she has no loyalties, imo) -

RB: So, who’s the friend he’s with?
LVD: My friend Melanie. Her son has autism. Her name’s Melanie Gibb.

LVD: Yes, he [JJ] has autism and ADHD, he has, he doesn’t really talk to people, like, he’s, he’s very special needs.

It's my thinking that the first person she earmarked for this was the nanny. Someone who had experience with children. Nanny's words -

"She asked me to come over for an interview to see if I could handle watching JJ since he has autism…"
"She then showed me how their tv worked, some options for food to make him, and activities we could do in the future (like go to gravity factory)."
"From what we had talked about yesterday that was what she seemed to be needing, was nearly daily assistance from me."

I think she would have easily pointed the finger at the nanny, under the pretext of taking JJ to gravity factory, not bringing him back. I don't see why there was a necessity for a nanny that evening - JJ could have stayed with Alex while LV went to pick up MG at the airport. Matter of fact I don't even see why there was a necessity for a nanny at all, because that's just causing LV more hassle with explaining to the nanny that she isn't needed any longer. So I do think she was involved in LV's initial planning and had a very lucky escape. On the weekend I think LV decided MG was the better scapegoat, even though she didn't end up using that story because she dodged being questioned about JJ for too long for it to make sense. Perhaps there were too many obstacles with the nanny story - like matching the nanny up to a night-time (sleeping) murder and morning disappearance. But when police did finally catch up with her, she still had the MG plan there, to adapt, for where JJ was.

So I would say that timing JJ's murder with having MG and DW in the house wasn't to give LV an alibi for not murdering JJ, but to use MG and DW as suspects in his disappearance, to another State. Whether she would actually say she was hiding him, or killed him, is another story to ponder.

The KW lie was only good until they discovered KW called in the welfare check. The MG lie was only good until MG recorded LV saying she had lied to police. Until that point she had MG in the palm of her hand - agreeing to say to police she had JJ.

MOO

This is fascinating T

It is one of the biggest puzzles of the case - how did they expect to get away with these murders?
 
So... no news on next court date for LV? TIA! :)

@Niner Nothing on the date for LV arraignment yet. Perhaps today, Monday, it will be scheduled after the courts open in just over 4 hours from now. When it hits the media we can give you an @ bat call alert for you to keep track of it all for us.

Thanks.
 
This is fascinating T

It is one of the biggest puzzles of the case - how did they expect to get away with these murders?
They might well have done had it not been for that beady eyed FBI agent spotting the irregular text on Tammy's phone. Without bodies I'm not sure the police would have moved on this beyond desertion charges.
 
does anyone else understand why LV(D) and CD even participated in this conversation? Did they think they would find out something from MG? Wouldn't it have been better for them, from their perspective, to have said "Hey, MG, great to hear from you, but our dinner is about to burn up... gotta go; we'll call you back later..." or some other blythe excuse? Some people have said they knew it was probably recorded or that MG was fishing for information, so why did they not avoid the conversation?
I think it's both their natures to think they can manipulate everything to their own advantage - exacerbated by personality disorders, disorded thinking and expectations. I really don't think they were expecting the worm to turn. MOO
 
This has been bugging me. Does the fact that the DA never introduced evidence of Chad’s fingerprints or DNA on JJ’s plastic wrap/duct tape mean they didn’t find any? I know typically information is held back in preliminary hearings, but I would think evidence he handled the body would remove any doubt as to his involvement (thus ensuring he’d be bound over for trial) without tipping off too much of the DA’s strategy.

What are the odds that CD’s fingerprints/DNA were there and they chose not to mention it?
 
Scripture and religion were at the foundation of their friendship. They met at church and did podcasts and conferences together. The podcasts and conferences were about spiritual subjects. I'm sure they had had many scriptural discussions in the past. It makes sense that Lori would use that when trying to convince MG of her innocence. She knew that MG valued these things. I don't find it odd either.
Respectfully, neither of these women are Christians. They may well be able to recite Bible verses, but learned nothing from them, just how clever they were and how pious they sounded. They had no trouble lying and it now seems killing children.
 
And therefore, having to admit their guilt just to include MG?

I'm not following that MOO... So what will they say happened in the scenario you are proposing with who/what/where that MG knew that Tylee was killed, dismembered, burned, buried at Chads?

Is that what you are meaning she knew all of that when you say "Melanie knew exactly what had happened to Tylee"?

gotta go back and re-think. Coffee has not kicked in this morning!! i think my thoughts were more about Melanie "believing" she was a zombie.
 
Which is exactly what may be upcoming for these cases for LV and CD. That it is so twisted, and all is double talk etc.

Again MOO, the prosecutor will need to be able to stand up and be quick and get to the point, vs. a prosecutor who reads verbatim off of notes from a 3 ring binder turning each page in front of the jury MOO

This is the first case I have ever followed here. So, often when others bring up past cases, I really do try to listen and learn. The poster, I believe it was @vislaw.... who elaborated so well on the Casey Anthony case really got my attention, as to the horrors that CAN happen in court. I did not live in Florida then, so I did follow the case a bit, but heavens, not to the degree that folks here have over the years.

Thus, I do keep thinking that the prosecution must lay out a basic foundation that will hopefully dismiss some potential surprises. I keep coming back to the web of lies, wherever and whenever they come up. And thank goodness, there are plenty of recordings from LE, Melanie, texts. Nothing but lies. I see the steady drone of their lies to be that 3 ring binder you refer to. IF we cannot believe anything they say..... others may be believed more.
 
gotta go back and re-think. Coffee has not kicked in this morning!! i think my thoughts were more about Melanie "believing" she was a zombie.

Ah, gotcha. The defense depositions prior to trial and under subpoena on some of these witnesses is going to be brutal, as I believe that Lori and Chad have embarrassing information they will expose on many prosecutions witnesses. I hope the prosecution prepares them for such, and that they have good lawyers at THAT time to prevent some questions that have nothing to do with trial/misleading and cryptic junk being prevented from being asked/answered at those depositions. (MOO - MG will need a lawyer then to be in the room!)

ETA: If not able to be prevented from depositions, I hope at least the prosecution reviews those depositions by the defense for all of them to know what to perhaps file motion in limine for.

ETA #2 for @nhmemorymaker Another thing that you may not know is that the prosecution knew prior to Caylee trial beginning that the defense was going to come after George and throw him under the bus. They actually pulled him aside and told him it was coming that she was going to claim so many false things about him. They did not (error MOO) do a motion in limine to exclude iirc. Do others recall the same? This, to me, is a comparison to potential on this trial and is not off topic, it's background for understanding potential trial scenarios for comparison for trial followers.
 
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This is the first case I have ever followed here. So, often when others bring up past cases, I really do try to listen and learn. The poster, I believe it was @vislaw.... who elaborated so well on the Casey Anthony case really got my attention, as to the horrors that CAN happen in court. I did not live in Florida then, so I did follow the case a bit, but heavens, not to the degree that folks here have over the years.

Thus, I do keep thinking that the prosecution must lay out a basic foundation that will hopefully dismiss some potential surprises. I keep coming back to the web of lies, wherever and whenever they come up. And thank goodness, there are plenty of recordings from LE, Melanie, texts. Nothing but lies. I see the steady drone of their lies to be that 3 ring binder you refer to. IF we cannot believe anything they say..... others may be believed more.

Yes, I am hoping that much of this is avoided in this trial with such similarities by having MANY in limine hearings so that such doesn't come up in front of the jury for this trial as I believe, as does @vislaw, this case is prime for such to occur. MOO

I really hope that RW is more experienced than I'm thinking at this point, and can do all that is needed as such.

For those new to cases, (I'm surprised you are new here! You seem very well versed!) per google:

"In U.S. law, a motion in limine (Latin: [ɪn ˈliːmɪnɛ]; "at the start", literally, "on the threshold") is a motion, discussed outside the presence of the jury, to request that certain testimony be excluded. ... The motion is decided by a judge in both civil and criminal proceedings."
 
Respectfully, neither of these women are Christians. They may well be able to recite Bible verses, but learned nothing from them, just how clever they were and how pious they sounded. They had no trouble lying and it now seems killing children.
I wasn't suggesting that LVD was sincere! I was just stating that conversations that included scripture, were at the foundation of her friendship with MG, evidenced by their podcasts and other activities.
 
@Niner Nothing on the date for LV arraignment yet. Perhaps today, Monday, it will be scheduled after the courts open in just over 4 hours from now. When it hits the media we can give you an @ bat call alert for you to keep track of it all for us.

Thanks.

Thank you very much for tagging me @dixiegirl1035 - this thread has been moving fast - so VERY much appreciated!
animated-smileys-waving-003.gif
 
I just put something together.

Graphic content warning for the below.

@Diddian mentioned in thread 49 that a body burnt at too low a temperature forms a pugilistic pose and appears to be alive.

It just hit me.

the gunshot.

What if AC or CD saw this, were terrified, and shot her *then*, post-mortem. We don’t know if there was a bullet discovered in any of the remains, of course.

just speculation and MOO
I watched a documentary on forensic evidence and they showed this phenomenon with a real body. It was CREEPY.
 
I don't think it's at all coincidence that LV chose a night when there were other people around.

She is a planner and a risk taker - we know she had a plan to trap Charles, who would have been very wary of her and Alex, especially after Charles found the email to Chad, and that set-up was very risky with the children in the house and all the things that could have gone wrong.

It's been my thinking for a while that she needed to set up a situation where JJ would leave with someone. But not just anyone, it had to be someone who could handle a child with autism.

Her words give us a clue as to her earlier planning, imo (she has a history of giving her schemes away when she gets herself into situations and it's her second nature to point fingers - she has no loyalties, imo) -

RB: So, who’s the friend he’s with?
LVD: My friend Melanie. Her son has autism. Her name’s Melanie Gibb.

LVD: Yes, he [JJ] has autism and ADHD, he has, he doesn’t really talk to people, like, he’s, he’s very special needs.

It's my thinking that the first person she earmarked for this was the nanny. Someone who had experience with children. Nanny's words -

"She asked me to come over for an interview to see if I could handle watching JJ since he has autism…"
"She then showed me how their tv worked, some options for food to make him, and activities we could do in the future (like go to gravity factory)."
"From what we had talked about yesterday that was what she seemed to be needing, was nearly daily assistance from me."

I think she would have easily pointed the finger at the nanny, under the pretext of taking JJ to gravity factory, not bringing him back. I don't see why there was a necessity for a nanny that evening - JJ could have stayed with Alex while LV went to pick up MG at the airport. Matter of fact I don't even see why there was a necessity for a nanny at all, because that's just causing LV more hassle with explaining to the nanny that she isn't needed any longer. So I do think she was involved in LV's initial planning and had a very lucky escape. On the weekend I think LV decided MG was the better scapegoat, even though she didn't end up using that story because she dodged being questioned about JJ for too long for it to make sense. Perhaps there were too many obstacles with the nanny story - like matching the nanny up to a night-time (sleeping) murder and morning disappearance. But when police did finally catch up with her, she still had the MG plan there, to adapt, for where JJ was.

So I would say that timing JJ's murder with having MG and DW in the house wasn't to give LV an alibi for not murdering JJ, but to use MG and DW as suspects in his disappearance, to another State. Whether she would actually say she was hiding him, or killed him, is another story to ponder.

The KW lie was only good until they discovered KW called in the welfare check. The MG lie was only good until MG recorded LV saying she had lied to police. Until that point she had MG in the palm of her hand - agreeing to say to police she had JJ.

MOO
I personally don't believe that Lori ever expected a welfare check, so she didn't plan on a particular scapegoat. If she picked the nanny, the lie would have been discovered pretty quickly.

It is still a mystery to me why the nanny was hired for one time only. Did Lori, Alex and MG have another business to take care of that afternoon? Did Lori and Chad intend to keep JJ alive for longer and something made them move the plan forward? JJ did tell the neighbor that he was leaving soon, so it was definitely preplanned.

JJ allegedly became a zombie on the day of nanny's interview (Sep 18), so I wonder if this was anticipated by Lori or it was Chad's idea. Lori did candidly tell MG that JJ was in the way of her and Chad's plan.

Also, Alex stayed on Chad's property for a shorter time the second time around. One would expect of him to help Chad with the digging, but it would seem that the latter had a grave ready for burial, which would not happen if Alex just showed up unannounced.
 
Snipped for focus....
I used to be an insurance agent, but all this is IIRC, because it's been a while.
In general, the insured pays for the policy and gets to pick who his/her beneficiary is. This can be changed at any time. Same as an IRA or TOD bank account. Same as a will. Your money, you decide. There maybe some situations that are different (e.g. insurance on a minor child), but that's the general rule.
You might be thinking of pension rules where IIRC benefit must be left for your spouse. This was to correct guys' habits of spending their whole pensions, dying, and leave nothing to their wives; you can't do that any more. Maybe this is the detail that was changed in the Reagan era?
Yes thank you @RickshawFan - I was confusing the insurance beneficiary w/Pension benefits. Which LVD probably would have been eligible for. Wonder if she received any funds from that after she helped to orchestrate CV's death?
 
This has been bugging me. Does the fact that the DA never introduced evidence of Chad’s fingerprints or DNA on JJ’s plastic wrap/duct tape mean they didn’t find any? I know typically information is held back in preliminary hearings, but I would think evidence he handled the body would remove any doubt as to his involvement (thus ensuring he’d be bound over for trial) without tipping off too much of the DA’s strategy.

What are the odds that CD’s fingerprints/DNA were there and they chose not to mention it?
I bet he wore gloves. The tight, medical kind.
 
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