IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

[Yemelyan]

The original CC prosecutor, Robert Ives, did talk about this in an interview. I can't remember now if he was able to get one. Does anyone else remember that?

He talks about it in the very long interview transcribed here (originally from the podcast Down the Hill):

Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Prosecuter Robert Ives shares details about The Delphi Murders crime scene signatures, suspects, & search warrents in this interview transcript from 'Down The Hill' podcast.

crimelights.com

NARRATOR: You mentioned that, especially in the early days, you were involved with drafting a lot of affidavits for search warrants. Can you put some sort of number in how many you were involved in?

ROBERT IVES: Dozens. I mean, a lot. There were a few search warrants. There weren’t so many search warrants, but there were lots of subpoenas. In this case, we were trying to get cell phone locations or numbers of cell phones, or identities of cell phone numbers, things like that, and similar things during that period of time. We cranked out a lot of that, but it didn’t lead to anything significant.

NARRATOR: Let’s talk cell phones. For a lot of people who follow this case, the locations of cell phones– specifically the ones near The Monon High Bridge at the time of the murders– is a meaty topic of discussion. Whose phone is pinging where, and why? That was a major point of interest for investigators, too. And how that all works? There’s more to it than you might think.

ROBERT IVES: A frustrating thing… this is probably difficult to explain in the course of podcast… but the law on searches with relation to cell phones and cell phone locations was evolving right at the time this was going on, and I think some of the people discussing it didn’t always understand. Like, they would say “Well if you want to know a cell phone location, why don’t you get a search warrant?” And the problem with that is, let’s take this case, it’s a perfect example: There’s a tower near the crime scene and cell phones pinged off that tower around the time of the crime. We would like to know who they pinged off. Say, “well why don’t you get a search warrant?”. Because there is no probable cause to believe that any particular phone is going to tell us anything about the crime. There is no probable cause. People act like a search warrant is easy to get. No! Because we don’t think any particular phone is a criminal, but if we want to get a pool of 25 people who were in the area and therefore could possibly have committed the crime, you have to find out. And this is the difficulty of the modern electronic world. Of course, to look in your phone? I think clearly that’s a search warrant situation, that’s your private property. That’s like opening your house or going in your car in your person. But the location of your phone? I certainly understand people’s concerns about their privacy. ‘Why can the government figure out where I am?’ Then on the other hand, when your two little girls are dead and you want to find out who was nearby in the last 2 hours, it’s terrible not to be able to get that information. And the idea is, well, I’ll just get a search warrant. That’s not logically or legally practical. And so, this is something society has to think about more. Because cell phone location data for a case like this, which is a lot of what I was doing at that time, could potentially be really valuable. Because, you know, Carroll County: 380 square miles, 20,000 people. Very few people were out near that crime scene at the time.…

 

[TL4S]

He talks about it in the very long interview transcribed here (originally from the podcast Down the Hill):

Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Prosecuter Robert Ives shares details about The Delphi Murders crime scene signatures, suspects, & search warrents in this interview transcript from 'Down The Hill' podcast.

crimelights.com

NARRATOR: You mentioned that, especially in the early days, you were involved with drafting a lot of affidavits for search warrants. Can you put some sort of number in how many you were involved in?

ROBERT IVES: Dozens. I mean, a lot. There were a few search warrants. There weren’t so many search warrants, but there were lots of subpoenas. In this case, we were trying to get cell phone locations or numbers of cell phones, or identities of cell phone numbers, things like that, and similar things during that period of time. We cranked out a lot of that, but it didn’t lead to anything significant.

NARRATOR: Let’s talk cell phones. For a lot of people who follow this case, the locations of cell phones– specifically the ones near The Monon High Bridge at the time of the murders– is a meaty topic of discussion. Whose phone is pinging where, and why? That was a major point of interest for investigators, too. And how that all works? There’s more to it than you might think.

ROBERT IVES: A frustrating thing… this is probably difficult to explain in the course of podcast… but the law on searches with relation to cell phones and cell phone locations was evolving right at the time this was going on, and I think some of the people discussing it didn’t always understand. Like, they would say “Well if you want to know a cell phone location, why don’t you get a search warrant?” And the problem with that is, let’s take this case, it’s a perfect example: There’s a tower near the crime scene and cell phones pinged off that tower around the time of the crime. We would like to know who they pinged off. Say, “well why don’t you get a search warrant?”. Because there is no probable cause to believe that any particular phone is going to tell us anything about the crime. There is no probable cause. People act like a search warrant is easy to get. No! Because we don’t think any particular phone is a criminal, but if we want to get a pool of 25 people who were in the area and therefore could possibly have committed the crime, you have to find out. And this is the difficulty of the modern electronic world. Of course, to look in your phone? I think clearly that’s a search warrant situation, that’s your private property. That’s like opening your house or going in your car in your person. But the location of your phone? I certainly understand people’s concerns about their privacy. ‘Why can the government figure out where I am?’ Then on the other hand, when your two little girls are dead and you want to find out who was nearby in the last 2 hours, it’s terrible not to be able to get that information. And the idea is, well, I’ll just get a search warrant. That’s not logically or legally practical. And so, this is something society has to think about more. Because cell phone location data for a case like this, which is a lot of what I was doing at that time, could potentially be really valuable. Because, you know, Carroll County: 380 square miles, 20,000 people. Very few people were out near that crime scene at the time.…

Thank you. Lots of great information from his interview.

 

[FromGermany1]

While the sources vary on a lot of these issues, the MS podcast was behind much of them. IMO, they do have a source close to the investigation, and quite a few of the things they have reported on have been later supported. And, to their credit, they DO always add the caveat that KAK is a liar and cannot be trusted. So while we have some information on KAK, we can't really call any of it fact, even the stuff from his 2020 interview with LE.

However, BP and KG have both confirmed that L was communicating with a_shots, and recent enough before they went missing for KG to reach out to him to see if he had heard from them. And the ISP put out the a_shots ask, NMcL said the Ks were part of the investigation during the Oct. PC, and at least one news source confirmed the Wabash search was related to Delphi. Another news source confirmed to MS that her LE source told her KAK was not the killer, but knew who it was, or was involved. And NMcL did say at the Nov. hearing that they had "good reason to believe" others were involved.

So, where are we today, with RA's confessions and no other arrests? IDK. The one thing I truly hope, is that at some point NMcL explains to the families and community, whether or not they believe RA acted alone, because the families and community deserve to know if anyone else involved is still walking free. JMO.

Speculation would be: They have RA and 19 unreleased sealed documents .... MOO

 

[CGBSpender]

He talks about it in the very long interview transcribed here (originally from the podcast Down the Hill):

Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Prosecuter Robert Ives shares details about The Delphi Murders crime scene signatures, suspects, & search warrents in this interview transcript from 'Down The Hill' podcast.

crimelights.com

NARRATOR: You mentioned that, especially in the early days, you were involved with drafting a lot of affidavits for search warrants. Can you put some sort of number in how many you were involved in?

ROBERT IVES: Dozens. I mean, a lot. There were a few search warrants. There weren’t so many search warrants, but there were lots of subpoenas. In this case, we were trying to get cell phone locations or numbers of cell phones, or identities of cell phone numbers, things like that, and similar things during that period of time. We cranked out a lot of that, but it didn’t lead to anything significant.

NARRATOR: Let’s talk cell phones. For a lot of people who follow this case, the locations of cell phones– specifically the ones near The Monon High Bridge at the time of the murders– is a meaty topic of discussion. Whose phone is pinging where, and why? That was a major point of interest for investigators, too. And how that all works? There’s more to it than you might think.

ROBERT IVES: A frustrating thing… this is probably difficult to explain in the course of podcast… but the law on searches with relation to cell phones and cell phone locations was evolving right at the time this was going on, and I think some of the people discussing it didn’t always understand. Like, they would say “Well if you want to know a cell phone location, why don’t you get a search warrant?” And the problem with that is, let’s take this case, it’s a perfect example: There’s a tower near the crime scene and cell phones pinged off that tower around the time of the crime. We would like to know who they pinged off. Say, “well why don’t you get a search warrant?”. Because there is no probable cause to believe that any particular phone is going to tell us anything about the crime. There is no probable cause. People act like a search warrant is easy to get. No! Because we don’t think any particular phone is a criminal, but if we want to get a pool of 25 people who were in the area and therefore could possibly have committed the crime, you have to find out. And this is the difficulty of the modern electronic world. Of course, to look in your phone? I think clearly that’s a search warrant situation, that’s your private property. That’s like opening your house or going in your car in your person. But the location of your phone? I certainly understand people’s concerns about their privacy. ‘Why can the government figure out where I am?’ Then on the other hand, when your two little girls are dead and you want to find out who was nearby in the last 2 hours, it’s terrible not to be able to get that information. And the idea is, well, I’ll just get a search warrant. That’s not logically or legally practical. And so, this is something society has to think about more. Because cell phone location data for a case like this, which is a lot of what I was doing at that time, could potentially be really valuable. Because, you know, Carroll County: 380 square miles, 20,000 people. Very few people were out near that crime scene at the time.…

I think they may be talking apples and oranges. He's talking about warrants directed at a specific device identifying owner and that owner's location data. As opposed to obtaining the IDs of all devices in the area...and then asking people to voluntarily disclose the ID of their device so that LE could match up what device belonged to what person in the data they are looking at. This would make sense as to why LE was going around asking people if they could look at their phones...so that LE could then write down the IMEI.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Curious about the creek depth on the 18th and 19th, I went to the USGS data for the gauge east of MHB, in fact it's next to a small bridge where the creek narrows. Looks like it rained on the 16th, 17th, and maybe 18th or 19th.

Deer Creek Near Delphi, IN

Monitoring location 03329700 is associated with a Stream in Carroll County, Indiana. Current conditions of DCP battery voltage, Discharge, and Gage height are available. Water data back to 1943 are available online.

waterdata.usgs.gov

I remember seeing footage that showed the creek had a sandy point and at that time was about knee deep IIRC.

 

[FromGermany1]

I don't have the document link at the moment, but it was linked upthread. It was underwear and one sock which were not recovered from the CS. And yes, from the original PCA, it did sound like the missing items were from one victim.

These fabric straps are just odd. At first I read it as scraps, which I thought could be pieces from something (like underwear or sock), but it specifically stays "straps." So my mind goes to things like cord wraps, or nylon webbing. But who knows?

I found straps also for wearing a cell phone dangling around your neck, carabiner at both ends.

 

[Boxer]

From the linked article:

Investigators wanted to search the property of Ron Williams (above, in a 2017 mugshot for a parole violation), who owned the land where the girls' bodies were found for any evidence connected to the crime

Hmmm....

DM gonna DM, I guess. Since they've run around 67,000 articles and retreads on this case they might take the time to copy-edit before posting.

I guess it shows they aren't cutting and pasting from their own earlier articles.

 

[CGBSpender]

And HEADBANDS are such an easy and widely available solution. Sports headbands are made to easily absorb your sweat and avoid drips into your eyes, down your face, or on the floor where you are working out. Even professional athletes use headbands when performing.25.03.2022 (Google)

Maybe, RA was interested in Sports and especially the sporty teenagers?

Easier to explain to one's family members and/or spouse than why you have a bag of blindfolds perhaps?

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

I think they may be talking apples and oranges. He's talking about warrants directed at a specific device identifying owner and that owner's location data. As opposed to obtaining the IDs of all devices in the area...and then asking people to voluntarily disclose the ID of their device so that LE could match up what device belonged to what person in the data they are looking at. This would make sense as to why LE was going around asking people if they could look at their phones...so that LE could then write down the IMEI.

JMO

Yes, the geo fence is more than just a cell tower dump. It utilizes more than just cell tower connections, it's using GPS data from apps that are running, for instance.

If LE have the exact timeframe of a crime and a specific location, they can apply for permission to obtain (from Google, for example) cell data on devices that were captured in that area during the specified timeframe. Based on the initial findings LE would have to go back to a judge to get probable cause to obtain more info on specific devices from particular individuals. Not sure how the proximity of the highway to this particular crime scene and the very rural nature of the geographic area may have affected the efficacy of this approach.

 

[FromGermany1]

My thoughts

1. No wonder "ricks" bail hearing got deep sixed

2. There is no sex ring.

Normally this case gets solved within a few weeks and there is no big mystery. The guy who said he was on the trails at the time and was caught on video is the guy who did it. Police messed up.

Ok, but with No. 2 I wouldn't agree. There IS a ring, I believe. Doesn't mean, that RA has to be a member.

 

[TL4S]

From page 144 of the documents:

Further, that the victims were forced down the hill by Richard Allen and lead to the location where they were murdered.

IMO, the girls did not run.

 

[Hoss569]

I wonder if BG didn't get on the bridge sooner because L had her phone out taking pictures on top the bridge and he didn't want to be in her pictures (ironic). He had to have gotten on very soon after the 2:07 time, though.

If he saw her with a phone, do you think he would have remembered to retrieve it?

 

[Hoss569]

I think, the bottle wasn't clean enough to be only a harmless water bottle or it was stored at an unusual place (in a wardrobe/dresser) or it was the same brand of a similar bottle/lid, left at the CS.

I wondered too if it might have a sticker or mark on it that would not necessarily have come from him.

 

[CGBSpender]

Others have already theorized this, but I will put my own spin on it...

According to the PCA, the ISP lab was done analyzing the firearms evidence on October 19th, but they didn't take him into custody for another week...on October 26th. And even then...key people were not in the area when they took him in...the press conference had to be pushed out so they could participate...so why pick that date to haul him into custody?

The carpet from the car was the only other thing sent for lab analysis according to the docs released yesterday...and if that came back with incriminating evidence before the 26th one would think that would be front and center in the PCA, right?

So perhaps something was found on one of the phones that made LE feel like they had to take him into custody on the 26th...but LE didn't include whatever they found in the PCA, because it may compromise the continuing investigation? As others have speculated...perhaps something on a phone made them think there could be others involved?

JMO

 

[ArianeEmory]

According to the PCA, the ISP lab was done analyzing the firearms evidence on October 19th, but they didn't take him into custody for another week...on October 26th. And even then...key people were not in the area when they took him in...the press conference had to be pushed out so they could participate...so why pick that date to haul him into custody?

Attorneys for Delphi Murder Suspect Suggest Political Motive for Client's Sudden Arrest After Being Known to the Police Since 2017

Attorneys for the man charged with murdering two girls near Delphi, Indiana suggested their client was arrested in part due a political race for county sheriff.

lawandcrime.com

The weird timing of his arrest and the way it wasn’t officially announced for a few days always made me side-eye the proximity of election day.

 

[Boxer]

Yes, the geo fence is more than just a cell tower dump. It utilizes more than just cell tower connections, it's using GPS data from apps that are running, for instance.

If LE have the exact timeframe of a crime and a specific location, they can apply for permission to obtain (from Google, for example) cell data on devices that were captured in that area during the specified timeframe. Based on the initial findings LE would have to go back to a judge to get probable cause to obtain more info on specific devices from particular individuals. Not sure how the proximity of the highway to this particular crime scene and the very rural nature of the geographic area may have affected the efficacy of this approach.

There were two towers for Delphi, one very close to the CS.
Even one towers data yields the distance the ojine was from the tower in a 30 degree arc.

 

[Boxer]

Attorneys for Delphi Murder Suspect Suggest Political Motive for Client's Sudden Arrest After Being Known to the Police Since 2017

Attorneys for the man charged with murdering two girls near Delphi, Indiana suggested their client was arrested in part due a political race for county sheriff.

lawandcrime.com

The weird timing of his arrest and the way it wasn’t officially announced for a few days always made me side-eye the proximity of election day.

What is your idea there?
Wouldnt a sheriff be thrilled to make an arrest in this case?
Maybe they were not quite ready to pull the trigger.

 

[Yemelyan]

There were two towers for Delphi, one very close to the CS.
Even one towers data yields the distance the ojine was from the tower in a 30 degree arc.

I was talking more about the geo fence data, though...that has more to do with check-ins that your apps are making with providers and less to do with tower triangulations from what I understand. But it would matter if, say, the rural nature of the geographic area made connectivity in general an issue for these apps to run their background GPS and other check-ins.

 

[ohiobuckeyegirl]

I think, the bottle wasn't clean enough to be only a harmless water bottle or it was stored at an unusual place (in a wardrobe/dresser) or it was the same brand of a similar bottle/lid, left at the CS.

I'm wondering if the water bottle had his DNA but not from drinking. I don't want to go into further detail because it would be disgusting, but that would give it a sexually motivated angle that no one had thought of before.

 

[ArianeEmory]

What is your idea there?
Wouldnt a sheriff be thrilled to make an arrest in this case?
Maybe they were not quite ready to pull the trigger.

Sorry, yes, to be clear I always wondered if they delayed the announcement to push closer to Election Day news cycles. If I remember correctly they pushed the presser to the point that people more or less knew what was going on the prior week, but no official word till Monday.

(I think I was on Reddit not WS at the time, so I don’t know how much “leaked” info was allowed here.)

Not alleging any conspiracy or that they have the wrong person, just you know … “all politics is local” or whatever.