Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #87

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Rustin Cohle said:
Interesting.

Wonder if this guy has ever traveled to Indiana?

http://www.exploreclarion.com/2019/...qyaJsUGuzIFje-6yWFK1hIQS-YBkKs8Gyn3_L86ISKER8
Click to expand...
This guy is 5’5” and 300 lbs with blue eyes. The LE description of POI is “Police say the person depicted in the composite sketch is described as a white male between 5’6” to 5’10”, weighing 180 to 220 pounds, with reddish brown hair. The eye color is unknown, but according to one witness, his eyes are not blue. ”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox59....eens-liberty-german-and-abigail-williams/amp/
 
SouthernMom said:
This guy is 5’5” and 300 lbs with blue eyes. The LE description of POI is “Police say the person depicted in the composite sketch is described as a white male between 5’6” to 5’10”, weighing 180 to 220 pounds, with reddish brown hair. The eye color is unknown, but according to one witness, his eyes are not blue. ”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox59....eens-liberty-german-and-abigail-williams/amp/
Click to expand...


Maybe he has put on some weight in the past 2 years. It is just a thought, this guy is a .
 
heartgoesout said:
The FBI should be able to give almost the exact height of BG. The planks on the bridge give an exact geometric measurement to go by.
With that said other than the blue eyes, here's another man that could absolutely look like the grainy photo. That nose.
Click to expand...


Colored contacts. That would take care of the glasses and the blue eyes.
 
Blue eyes are a genetic mutation and very easily standout, especially when paired with certain colors of clothing. I have blue eyes. If and I mean if, I was going to commit a crime of this nature or any crime, I would definitely wear sunglasses or colored contacts.
 
Instead of focusing on CE, as he's not been charged in this case, I'd like to look back at the case as I sheepishly admit that while I was a participant and reader at the time of the crime, after so much speculation, and no facts forthcoming at that time, I decided to " wait and see". I didn't realize the case threads would be so active and so rapidly developing. This is testimony to your devotion and level of attention to details. I applaud you. :)

C.E. very much piques interest, and with his arrest in another crime, the attention was brought back to Abby and Libby for me and a lot of people, I'm sure.

Disregarding CE as the one and only possible perp, could some of you help me with the following?

I'd like to get either known facts or impressions without reading 86 prior threads, as I am unable to find facts in that much discussion. NO disrespect meant at all. You all have done a wonderful job of keeping these two girls' cases alive.

I have some questions ( and impressions of my own which may be way off the mark or may not be) after going back to the old threads of this case and realizing that many links are now 404 error broken links.

1) Is it the general consensus in the community, with the families, LE, and here with us WSers that this was a crime of opportunity with a very small window of time between seeing the girls on a one- time basis and deciding to assault and kill them?
If so, I'd think he was a killer who'd killed before and somehow gone undetected, meaning there were no witnesses, no video, no traceable DNA in any database with familial connections to suspect in those other crimes.

2) Do you believe the kiler stayed in the general area ( 50 mile radius) or moved post- crime?

3) Do you think he's harmed or killed others before this crime or afterwards? Has LE indicated anything regarding this? I'd think that if he assaulted and murdered prior to this case, it would be before DNA was used as a valuable tool in many cases. Also, if he's reoffended, they'd most likely have his DNA on file and could do the genetic database searches for close relatives, if any, right?

4) Is there any reason currently to believe Abby or Libby were stalked over a period of weeks or months?
Any verifiable reason to believe the comings and goings of their close family members were perhaps watched or stalked for more than possibly a short time that last fateful day of their lives? ( I know this was a bit of an unsettled topic early in the discussions and if it's still sensitive, I apologize).

5) Similarly, do any of you believe that one girl was the intended victim? We've just seen this type of criminality in the Closs family murders and abduction of 12 year old J.C. who escaped. I've wondered if she'd had a friend over, would he have killed her friend, or taken her, too? Would he have killed any siblings old enough to talk about any details? Hypotheticals in J.C.'s case, but it has also caused me to wonder if ONE of the Delphi girls was targeted and the other killed through tragic and unforeseen association that day?

I'm looking at the aspects of organization vs. disorganization and spontaneous urge to hurt, assault, and murder.

Next part in my next post, thanks!
 
Second part of things I ( and maybe you) wonder about:

A watcher/ stalker seems very unusual considering things like the bridge and the wooded area and fields, but in this day and time, people stalk and watch in diverse ways. I did read some poster comments early on that one of the girls had been on her family's property where she was supposed to be outdoors, and had reported an unusual event possibly tied to a stranger in the area. I don't know if this was ever confirmed or refuted by family members and released to the public or if it was a rumor.
I realize that the person she saw or heard may not be the perp. but it's so very strange that they'd walk upon a brazen killer who just decided to shoot them.

6) Has any info been released about any tech. devices owned by the perp ( not the girls) or modes of transportation? I'm not sure the perp. was exactly high tech, but may have had devices other than his gun/ guns which were helpful in a less populated area ( binoculars, night scope, maybe a phone with GPS -- knife, binding materials and so forth,but high tech like a smartphone with GPS or a hand held GPS device is way down my list for obvious reasons.)

7) Is it believed he arrived and departed using a vehicle which would not be noticed as unusual? As I have not read any info about an unusual looking vehicle, I tend to think nothing visible seemed odd. The girls were old enough to spot " odd" .An example would be a common make and color truck which may have carried a mountain terrain bike or smaller, fairly off road motorbike in the truck bed.

8) I've seen references to the " Bridge Guy". It's not stated as " the killer" or " the perp". Does this mean some or most of you, and/ or LE has said there was more than one man on the bridge road? One who killed, one who is either innocent, a lookout or hands on accomplice to parts of the crimes.

Not that my opinion matters, but my thoughts on possible or likely traits of this killer:
I think, at this time, it was a crime of opportunity and impulsivity committed by someone who had either molested and/or killed previously as a crime of opportunity ( they were either family members or were in his immediate orbit and vulnerable for various reasons) or who knew how to find, then lure children to him from either books, movies, or having seen it done by someone close to him at one point when he was fairly young ( a parent or close relative or friend he was loyal to). This is not to say that the families of killers are also bad people. In many cases, they are innocent, collateral victims emotionally. However, there's something about these almost simultaneous murders which steers my thoughts to a long- suppressed desire to act out a brutal fantasy with no planning, just coincidental tiny window of opportunity. Perhaps other victims were able to escape and had no identifying info or sourceable DNA present at that time in technology..

The other option is that he did stalk and choose a victim, and this time there were two young teen girls instead of one. IMO, in this case, he'd likely be a chronic offender, a person who was always in the sights of LE in his home town for petty crimes or annoyances.
The exception to the usual escalation of violence, IMO, would be a person who'd harmed others in his past, but has or came to have another person in his life who functioned as a " minder" and kept him under control most of the time. The usual and easiest way for a " minder" to control a large strong man they believe may hurt them and others is to keep them too intoxicated to leave a shared house very often. So, I'd expect chronic alcoholism to be a part of his profile. Maybe hidden well, or maybe he was known as " the town drunk" wherever he lived...

IDK if he's killed before this, or if he's killed or assaulted after the Delphi crimes. I tend to think there's a history of violent crimes based on the speed at which we believe he lured and took the girls, however I also consider the fact that he may have been an animal hunter as well:
If so, he'd know how to stalk, how to be stealthy, and how to be very still for long periods, then leap to shoot a covey of quail or flock of ducks despite his rather large size.

What sets him apart from normal, nice, ordinary weekend or opening day of a specific hunting season is that he learned from animals and something very violent and sick caused him to kill Abby and Libby, and possibly unknown others. Hunters are not human killers, and my discussion of this possibility relates ONLY to the learned ways to stalk, remain still and patient, then spring into action rapidly.

One of the things I've always wondered about is if he traveled and has unknown dead or known missing victims scattered geographically. I wanted to look specifically at the state of Indiana and how unpopulated or populated it is. The sparsely states like Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, and Idaho would seem to be the grounds for a killer who exclusively preferred the hunt of a victim as prey rather than a city killer who is more of a spree killer of either a " type" of person, or any vulnerable person, or persons with material goods visible which the killer wants to possess.. More and more often, murders are linked to thefts of high priced items. Take a life to get a Rolex or Mercedes. SMDH. I know this isn't a factor here, but because of the contrasts, wanted to mention the opposite type of spree killers we read about.

Note that Indiana is as close to the middle of the list as possible. My impression of many parts of Indiana I've traveled through almost to Illinois is that there are many rural farms or fallow land with no visible homesites. I'm sure this is true for many areas of most states but could be a factor in how location plays or doesn't play a part..

Here is the source I used which ranks states by both land mass (population per square mile) and approximate total of residents.List of states and territories of the United States by population density - Wikipedia

As you can see or probably already knew if you live in the state or adjoining areas, population density is not a state-wide factor like we'd see in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and the others you can read without me listing them BUT every state has rural areas here and there.
If using a statewide area and not a more localized area, this is not a factor in the Delphi crimes as far as can be determined by population density of the state. I do think the area was regionally close to his home base..

Thank you so much in advance for your input and theories to the questions I've asked, or known facts I don't have at present. I've read enough to have a theory, but I MAY have missed info given in one or more of the 86 (!!!) previous, very dedicated threads.

If anyone has other case info, feel free to add it. I asked what I'm not sure of, but it's definitely not all- inclusive.
I sincerely hope everyone of us can see justice for Abby and Libby's families and the community before long. I hope there will be answers for all of us here and the LE officers who have spent time researching, looking at topography, maps, roads or trails, and especially the minute details of the sketch of " Bridge Guy".
 
SeekingJana said:
Instead of focusing on CE, as he's not been charged in this case, I'd like to look back at the case as I sheepishly admit that while I was a participant and reader at the time of the crime, after so much speculation, and no facts forthcoming at that time, I decided to " wait and see". I didn't realize the case threads would be so active and so rapidly developing. This is testimony to your devotion and level of attention to details. I applaud you. :)

C.E. very much piques interest, and with his arrest in another crime, the attention was brought back to Abby and Libby for me and a lot of people, I'm sure.

Disregarding CE as the one and only possible perp, could some of you help me with the following?

I'd like to get either known facts or impressions without reading 86 prior threads, as I am unable to find facts in that much discussion. NO disrespect meant at all. You all have done a wonderful job of keeping these two girls' cases alive.

I have some questions ( and impressions of my own which may be way off the mark or may not be) after going back to the old threads of this case and realizing that many links are now 404 error broken links.

1) Is it the general consensus in the community, with the families, LE, and here with us WSers that this was a crime of opportunity with a very small window of time between seeing the girls on a one- time basis and deciding to assault and kill them?
If so, I'd think he was a killer who'd killed before and somehow gone undetected, meaning there were no witnesses, no video, no traceable DNA in any database with familial connections to suspect in those other crimes.

2) Do you believe the kiler stayed in the general area ( 50 mile radius) or moved post- crime?

3) Do you think he's harmed or killed others before this crime or afterwards? Has LE indicated anything regarding this? I'd think that if he assaulted and murdered prior to this case, it would be before DNA was used as a valuable tool in many cases. Also, if he's reoffended, they'd most likely have his DNA on file and could do the genetic database searches for close relatives, if any, right?

4) Is there any reason currently to believe Abby or Libby were stalked over a period of weeks or months?
Any verifiable reason to believe the comings and goings of their close family members were perhaps watched or stalked for more than possibly a short time that last fateful day of their lives? ( I know this was a bit of an unsettled topic early in the discussions and if it's still sensitive, I apologize).

5) Similarly, do any of you believe that one girl was the intended victim? We've just seen this type of criminality in the Closs family murders and abduction of 12 year old J.C. who escaped. I've wondered if she'd had a friend over, would he have killed her friend, or taken her, too? Would he have killed any siblings old enough to talk about any details? Hypotheticals in J.C.'s case, but it has also caused me to wonder if ONE of the Delphi girls was targeted and the other killed through tragic and unforeseen association that day?

I'm looking at the aspects of organization vs. disorganization and spontaneous urge to hurt, assault, and murder.

Next part in my next post, thanks!
Click to expand...

I'm going to answer your first question to the best of my ability based on watching this thread closely, but please, everybody else, jump in and add, amend, etc. Truly, we have much more speculation so far than we have facts. I have enough time to answer your first question before I have to go back to plastering. I'll try to address more of your questions a bit later.

I think most of us believe this was a crime of opportunity, but there are definitely websleuthers who wonder if one of the girls might have been texting someone they thought was around their age and hoped to meet him on or near the Monon High Bridge.

I lean towards thinking this was a crime of opportunity. Abby and Libby's trip to the bridge seemed spontaneous: they were doing filing for Libby's grandma when they found out Libby's sister, Kelsi, was going to a friend's house and since it was a nice day, they asked if Kelsi would drop them off at the bridge. According to Libby's grandma, neither Abby nor Libby had been very active on their phones before going to the trail.

Abby and Libby were doing what most kids that age do on an outing: taking selfies and Snapchatting. The fact that Libby took two photos of the BG and recorded some audio makes most of us think something about him alarmed the girls. There's been a lot of debate about what that could be: 1) Did he say something frightening before the audio clip we've all heard of "down the hill"? 2) Did they see something on his person that scared them (a weapon of some kind)?

Another piece of information that may speak to a crime of opportunity is the way BG is dressed. His clothes look layered, like he is dressed too warmly for the 44 degree weather. Compare his clothes to how lightly Abby and Libby are dressed. Maybe the perpetrator had been dressed warmly and hanging out all day looking for potential victims. Some websleuthers have suggested the perpetrator might have been underneath the bridge and when he saw Abby and Libby, he successfully cornered them on the bridge.

As to facts, so few have been released. We know LE has more audio from Libby's phone that they have not released. We don't know if LE has any DNA. If they don't have DNA, this could be someone who has offended before but LE may not be able to prove it.

LE has never released cause of death or commented on what, if any, evidence they have beyond the two grainy photos Libby took and the audio. The sketch of the perpetrator is from other people who saw BG in the park that day.

To be continued...
 
As to your second question, whether the killer stayed in the general area or moved post-crime, I'll give you my consensus of what I think we've agreed upon. Again, other WSers, please feel free to correct me.

Most of us on Websleuths think the killer had some familiarity with the park/bridge in order to have pulled off this crime. He seemed to have a plan in terms of figuring out how to corner the girls and the knowledge of where to direct them so that he could kill them without being observed. There's been speculation on whether he has a family member in Delphi or if his work periodically takes him to that area.

I'd say most of us think he doesn't live in the immediate area. That's because we think someone would have identified him by now. Delphi is a small town with under 3,000 residents. Between Libby's two photos, the sketch and the voice clip, we think someone would have recognized him by now if he was a local.
 
3) Do you think he's harmed or killed others before this crime or afterwards? Has LE indicated anything regarding this? I'd think that if he assaulted and murdered prior to this case, it would be before DNA was used as a valuable tool in many cases. Also, if he's reoffended, they'd most likely have his DNA on file and could do the genetic database searches for close relatives, if any, right?


I think the consensus on Websleuths is that this wasn't this guy's first offense. Most of us think he's probably committed some act of violence before because of the brutality of the crime against Abby and Libby. LE has not said anything about whether they suspect this perpetrator has killed before.

As to whether there is DNA for this case, I'm going to copy a direct quote from LE:

"DNA evidence also has been collected from the scene," said ISP First Sgt. Jerry Holeman, the investigative commander of the Lafayette District.

“At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” Holeman said in August 2017."

Another piece of information about the DNA evidence:

Indiana State Police officials have not confirmed yet whether they have DNA samples that are directly tied to a possible suspect or suspects in the Delphi case.

However, a change in Indiana law this year might help in the case, because it now allows law-enforcement officials to collect DNA samples from anyone accused of a felony. Before the new law took effect on Jan. 1, police could only collect DNA if a person had been convicted of a crime.

There is also the possibility someday that a familial DNA, one that looks for markers in DNA that might indicate a family member, could be employed in the search for Abby's and Libby's killer.

Source of above 3 paragraphs:
Delphi murders: What we know nearly two years after the slayings of Abby and Libby

The only thing that makes me think LE has at least some usable DNA from the perpetrator is this:

"Investigators working on the Delphi case are now using the same DNA technology used to arrest a man near Fort Wayne this week, suspected in the 1988 murder of a little girl. Source:
Delphi murder investigators using same DNA tech that led to Fort Wayne cold case arrest
 
As to your question, 4) Is there any reason currently to believe Abby or Libby were stalked over a period of weeks or months?
Any verifiable reason to believe the comings and goings of their close family members were perhaps watched or stalked for more than possibly a short time that last fateful day of their lives? ( I know this was a bit of an unsettled topic early in the discussions and if it's still sensitive, I apologize).

No. I have never read anything from LE that indicates they think this was a case of stalking. There has never been a comment that either Abby or Libby was the intended target of this crime in answer to the fifth question you posted.
 
Chocobella, thanks so much! I recall Libby's grandmother from the beginning of the case.

I didn't know there a blank about the DNA, as I had thought from non- WS reports about the girls recently that they were "assaulted and shot". Faux news and all that..
It's why I asked because I know there's been so much angst in not having but bare bones case facts released to the public.

I totally agree that he's not a Delphi resident, but likely lives within a 50 mile radius.
IMO, if he lured them successfully, which it certainly seems he did, then I'd think these weren't his crimes against persons, and maybe not his first murders.

There's also the chance that he's a serial killer not yet caught who prefers warm climates. We know that it's believed by LE that there are at least 2000 uncaught serial killers in the US. When I go outside for any length of time when the temp. is really low for this area at around 48 degrees, I'd have warm layers of clothing on.
This could point to him either being new to the area, a parolee living with a family member after being released from prison in a southwestern or southern state, or a seasoned killer on the road who happened to see signs on his route about the park.
Sometimes the urge to kill overrides all other thoughts and plans for certain types of killers. He may be one of them.

At the beginning, I didn't get the impression that the girls were seeking to do anything but walk together and giggle and be silly like girls do. There was no hint of SM interaction with a "boy" who was actually a predator. Is this a theory or info from the family?
But, since Libby had her phone close at hand, this makes sense that they could have been online doing social things and been captured through an online predator pretending to be a young teen boy.

Great info, and I understand more why my knowledge is skimpy. It's because LE never released enough info for the public to turn in a weird cousin, or the guy who moved in with his mother recently and yelled at her so loudly they could hear him several doors down.

I had thought the sketch was a police sketch. It seems to me there has been almost NO known official movement at all on this case from the beginning.

Did the FBI become involved, and are they still involved? I'd consider this to be an FBI- level case if there's very little case info, and poor multimedia involving the murderer. The FBI labs can enhance and extract a lot from both audio and photos in many cases.
 
Choochoobella said:
I think the consensus on Websleuths is that this wasn't this guy's first offense. Most of us think he's probably committed some act of violence before because of the brutality of the crime against Abby and Libby. LE has not said anything about whether they suspect this perpetrator has killed before.

"Investigators working on the Delphi case are now using the same DNA technology used to arrest a man near Fort Wayne this week, suspected in the 1988 murder of a little girl. Source:
Delphi murder investigators using same DNA tech that led to Fort Wayne cold case arrest
Click to expand...

Respectfully snipped and points bolded. If LE hasn't released any details of the COD, nor any autopsy reports in the ongoing cases, what is known about the crime as far as the first paragraph where you say it's a brutal crime?
Was blood found? Shell casings? Ligatures? Anything?

I believe they will catch this killer and many more using familial DNA " family trees" posted on free and publicly accessible websites.
It seems to me they're either choosing to not release info to the public way beyond what's usually held back, or they aren't releasing anything because they have very little from which to release info which isn't compromising to the case.

So, the families don't even know how their girls died? I didn't know this. I'd thought they were shot after hours of being missing. Somehow, early in the case, it was believed there were gunshots heard. Just a rumor, and I don't want to get a rumor restarted.

Thank you for helping me get back current. I truly appreciate it so very much.

If some of you have other points or differing viewpoints, please post them. 86 FULL threads are not searchable for me in this board's format.
 
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