Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

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Maybe the ages of the victims would differ? A mother and a daughter?

Man cleared as suspect more than 10 years after wife, daughter murdered on hiking trail

From a similar article:

“Only hours later both women were dead, shot and killed on a popular trail in Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest in Washington State. A hiker recalled seeing them on the trail at 10 that morning; another came across their bodies around 2:30 p.m. and called police. Investigators say that robbery was apparently not a motive—Cooper’s 1997 Dodge Caravan was found where she parked it at the trailhead—and are looking into several scenarios. One is that the killer may have been a crystal meth addict (the nearby town of Granite Falls has had so many drug problems it’s been called Methville); another is that the murders may somehow be linked to the shooting of two Oregon hikers one year earlier. “

So there, too, was a very small amount of time between abduction and murders.

Regarding “signatures”. They maybe person-specific, some form of ritualistic behavior, but as any ritual, they may develop in the course of the crimes. Not present from the case of victim Nr 1.

This case is actually one of the ones that got me interested in cold cases/true crime. Growing up in Washington, I remember watching the news reports when that happened. I was a teenager then, so I kind of forgot about it after a while until I developed this interest.

I think it's reasonable to believe that there's a connection between these cases, but the major hangup I have are the differences in the settings. From what I've seen, Delphi has a fairly organized trail system within walking distance to town. The trails in Mount Baker-Snoqualmie are more secluded and very rugged. I haven't been there myself, but that's the impression I got from reading about the experiences of hikers who have gone up there. Apparently it takes quite the effort to even drive to the trailhead. That's one of the things that bothers me about Mary and Susanna's murders; the effort it would have taken to commit the crime.

At the same time, very little information has been released about both cases. Both cases have no known motives. Delphi has a suspect description, audio, and video. Mary and Susanna's case has a cause of death. Other than those, not much else is known.
 
https://www.carrollcountycomet.com/articles/lots-of-tips-no-arrest-in-2017-double-homicide/
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet



April 29, 2020

By Debbie Lowe

Staff writer

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Comet Monday roughly 40,000 tips have been received in the investigation into the homicides of Abigail Williams and Liberty German on Feb. 13, 2017. Leazenby reported that roughly 9,000 tips were received in 2019 and approxim ately 3 , 0 0 0 have been received this year. Libby took a video on her […]

I think the article quoted above is a gem in terms of information. For me, these are the things that stand out:

-the case is not cold based on the number of tips that continue to come in, and based on the fact that evidence is being reviewed (this is an active case)
-there is DNA (of course we don't know if it is BGs but the way the article is written makes it sound hopeful that there is foreign DNA at the scene)
-there is 'suggestive' evidence of fingerprints (I'm not sure what 'suggestive' means, but the article implies the prints might be partial or smudged)
-evidence suggests the girls were killed on the property where their bodies were found (this can put to rest the notion they were abducted and brought back)
-LE has not determined if there is more than one perpetrator of the crime (this makes the 2 different sketches make more sense and changes my view of the crime)
-LE believes they have already interviewed the suspect, that he/they are local, and he will turn out to be a well-known community member and people will be shocked (all of this makes me think LE have narrowed the suspect pool considerably, and probably have someone in mind but not enough evidence to arrest).
 
I think the article quoted above is a gem in terms of information. For me, these are the things that stand out:

-the case is not cold based on the number of tips that continue to come in, and based on the fact that evidence is being reviewed (this is an active case)
-there is DNA (of course we don't know if it is BGs but the way the article is written makes it sound hopeful that there is foreign DNA at the scene)
-there is 'suggestive' evidence of fingerprints (I'm not sure what 'suggestive' means, but the article implies the prints might be partial or smudged)
-evidence suggests the girls were killed on the property where their bodies were found (this can put to rest the notion they were abducted and brought back)
-LE has not determined if there is more than one perpetrator of the crime (this makes the 2 different sketches make more sense and changes my view of the crime)
-LE believes they have already interviewed the suspect, that he/they are local, and he will turn out to be a well-known community member and people will be shocked (all of this makes me think LE have narrowed the suspect pool considerably, and probably have someone in mind but not enough evidence to arrest).
Thanks for the bullet points from the article as I could not read it without subscribing...

:thank you:
 
I can't get past why two athletic girls couldn't outrun one man who appears to have pockets full of stuff. Maybe at least one of them was injured prior to the creek crossing? Didn't one of the girls lose a shoe before the creek crossing, near the dirt road?

I've wondered about that too. The two options I can think of are he grabbed one of the girls and held a knife or gun to her head to force the other one to comply, or he was somebody they didn't suspect--taking the video makes that option unlikely.
 
I think the article quoted above is a gem in terms of information. For me, these are the things that stand out:

-the case is not cold based on the number of tips that continue to come in, and based on the fact that evidence is being reviewed (this is an active case)
-there is DNA (of course we don't know if it is BGs but the way the article is written makes it sound hopeful that there is foreign DNA at the scene)
-there is 'suggestive' evidence of fingerprints (I'm not sure what 'suggestive' means, but the article implies the prints might be partial or smudged)
-evidence suggests the girls were killed on the property where their bodies were found (this can put to rest the notion they were abducted and brought back)
-LE has not determined if there is more than one perpetrator of the crime (this makes the 2 different sketches make more sense and changes my view of the crime)
-LE believes they have already interviewed the suspect, that he/they are local, and he will turn out to be a well-known community member and people will be shocked (all of this makes me think LE have narrowed the suspect pool considerably, and probably have someone in mind but not enough evidence to arrest).

The article also mentioned they had conducted some polygraph tests, which I found very interesting.
 
This murder was originally thought to be perpetrated by Israel Keyes . This case looks much like the Delphi case on the surface. mOO

I had never heard of this guy before, Israel Keyes. But after reading about him I am astonished at the lengths he went to in order to perpetrate his crimes! The Delphi murders absolutely fit his MO, the only thing is he was incarcerated and died in prison in 2012. I wonder if this was a copy-cat?

IK was also incarcerated when the Evansdale murders took place...but I will look more into that case because I hadn’t heard of that one either. :(
 
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I've wondered about that too. The two options I can think of are he grabbed one of the girls and held a knife or gun to her head to force the other one to comply, or he was somebody they didn't suspect--taking the video makes that option unlikely.
I considered pepper spray or a taser although pepper spray likely would have led to screaming. A taser may not have. I definitely think he had a means to subdue one of them in some manner in order to manage two of them who were both fit and athletic. IMO
 
I considered pepper spray or a taser although pepper spray likely would have led to screaming. A taser may not have. I definitely think he had a means to subdue one of them in some manner in order to manage two of them who were both fit and athletic. IMO
My opinion, his gun subdued both of them. Although I do think they took off running resulting in LGs shoe coming off
 
This case is actually one of the ones that got me interested in cold cases/true crime. Growing up in Washington, I remember watching the news reports when that happened. I was a teenager then, so I kind of forgot about it after a while until I developed this interest.

I think it's reasonable to believe that there's a connection between these cases, but the major hangup I have are the differences in the settings. From what I've seen, Delphi has a fairly organized trail system within walking distance to town. The trails in Mount Baker-Snoqualmie are more secluded and very rugged. I haven't been there myself, but that's the impression I got from reading about the experiences of hikers who have gone up there. Apparently it takes quite the effort to even drive to the trailhead. That's one of the things that bothers me about Mary and Susanna's murders; the effort it would have taken to commit the crime.

At the same time, very little information has been released about both cases. Both cases have no known motives. Delphi has a suspect description, audio, and video. Mary and Susanna's case has a cause of death. Other than those, not much else is known.

But the husband was cleared of the suspicion, ten years later. Does it mean that some similarities between the Pinnacle Lake murders and some other crimes, somewhere else, have been found?

Interesting article about Israel Keyes

Serial killer Keyes: ‘I would let them (victims) come to me in a remote area’


“In a 40-second video clip recorded July 10, Keyes explains that he preferred to let his victims come to him in an isolated area far away from where he lived.

“If I was smart, I would do it, I would let them come to me in a remote area,” Keyes said. “I would go to a remote area that’s not anywhere near where you live but that other people go to, as well. You might not get exactly what you’re (looking for in a victim) … there’s not much to choose from, in a matter of speaking, but there’s also no witnesses, really. There’s nobody else around.””
 
On the contrary, I think, BG suppressed his anger at home (first towards parents, later on towards girlfriend) and let off steam outside the home even worse. IF he had to keep a certain reputation, in his mind he had to do it secretly, towards strangers. MOO, I can imagine something like that perhaps.

It could be the opposite. Great at work and a monster at home. Masked cowardice mixed with sadism.

I think there was a history of physical abuse from one of the parents. I think it is inter-generational.

The person is able to adapt to discipline, is perfectionistic, good with the boss, maybe strict with subordinates, but nothing extreme. He probably shows a certain amount of machismo with friends, but on the surface, it looks like leadership qualities.

Inside, there is cowardice mixed with sadism. It does not show itself against stronger men and women, but it amply demonstrates against weaker and more dependent members of own household.

Maybe not now, if his current GF is strong. But somewhere in the past, with either a nicer, or a younger, more dependent, person, there was an episode of significant DV. It never went to court because the girl took her complaint back.

He might be also cruel to animals. Another dependent group.

If he is a prison guard, he is the most hated among the prisoners. If he is a policeman, he has an impressive CV, but could have been accused of overstepping boundaries.

JMO.

He constantly needs to prove his masculinity and would never forgive anyone who questions it or makes even good-natured jokes.
 
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I can't get past why two athletic girls couldn't outrun one man who appears to have pockets full of stuff. Maybe at least one of them was injured prior to the creek crossing? Didn't one of the girls lose a shoe before the creek crossing, near the dirt road?

I'm of the opinion he grabbed the girl who was closest to him, and used some kind of restraining device during the abduction phase of the crimes. Control one victim, thus control both by default. I think he had to run that through his mind before putting the wheels in motion after seeing the girls, I'm of the opinion he was on the trail when they were dropped off. It is possible he injured one of them, I've thought that whoever he retrained he also injured, but who knows.

My understanding about the shoe is it wasn't by the road, it was along the creek on the north side of the creek, within feet of the CS. KG has indicated that is the case with the shoe.

JMO
 
It could be the opposite. Great at work and a monster at home. Masked cowardice mixed with sadism.

I think there was a history of physical abuse from one of the parents. I think it is inter-generational.

The person is able to adapt to discipline, is perfectionistic, good with the boss, maybe strict with subordinates, but nothing extreme. He probably shows a certain amount of machismo with friends, but on the surface, it looks like leadership qualities.

Inside, there is cowardice mixed with sadism. It does not show itself against stronger men and women, but it amply demonstrates against weaker and more dependent members of own household.

Maybe not know, if his current GF is strong. But somewhere in the past, with either a nicer, or a younger, more dependent, person, there was an episode of significant DV. It never went to court because the girl took her complaint back.

He might be also cruel to animals. Another dependent group.

If he is a prison guard, he is the most hated among the prisoners. If he is a policeman, he has an impressive CV, but could have been accused of overstepping boundaries.

JMO.

He constantly needs to prove his masculinity and would never forgive anyone who questions it or makes even good-natured jokes.
In other words he is a narcissist. IMO
 
Also it’s interesting because of how little they’ve disclosed and consequently how much we do not know; why would they have looked into RSOs if there was not a sexual aspect of the crime. Either literally or in some other aspect. MOO
 
I can't get past why two athletic girls couldn't outrun one man who appears to have pockets full of stuff. Maybe at least one of them was injured prior to the creek crossing? Didn't one of the girls lose a shoe before the creek crossing, near the dirt road?

here is a possible explanation why:

Comparative 3-d perception

I tend to believe this killer was familiar with the area based on either living there or being a frequent visitor sometime prior to the murders. Maybe 5-10 years prior.

That said, I've wondered if there isn't something about this killer's background that would lend itself to quickly assessing an area. A hunter or maybe an avid hiker certainly comes to mind. Most of the hikers I know though seldom venture off the trails. Also a military background, specifically Marines or Army. I was Navy but in joint field exercises with Army units I was always amazed at the level of comfort and expertise of even the lower ranking soldiers when it came to being in the field. Another type of person - those that participate in the paintball games. Many of them do a lot of recon so they not only know the best way into an area, but the best way - or ways - out of the area. Your best soldiers, marines and paintball players are constantly analyzing the area as they move through it so they can spot possible ambush locations and exfil routes. Such persons might not have or even need prior experience with regard to these trails. One time through the area prior to the day of the murders might be all such a person mentioned above really needs.


What @JnRyan describes ... call it 3-d perception, 3-d visualization, good visuospatial ability. From his description it follows that the BG had this innate ability.

Now, I don’t remember where, one of the parents said that Abby and Libby did not have good visuospatial abilities. I remembered it because it was, basically, the only weakness ever mentioned about the girls. No one is a Supergirl, thought I.

But maybe this is exactly why they could not outrun BG. They could have gotten mentally lost, two teenagers with weak visuospatial perception against the guy with a strong one, and armed at that.
 
In other words he is a narcissist. IMO

Probably a malignant one, but I don’t like this term.

“Narcissist” is a symptom, but a waste paper basket one. It doesn’t explain, why. And probably different people show narcissism for different reasons. Some have such tunnel vision that they don’t see or feel other people around them. Not BG, he can adapt.
 
I agree with HockeyMom.
I believe LE has someone in mind, but not enough evidence to arrest.
I also believe BG is wealthy therefore he will be able to hire the most successful defense team the moment LE makes the arrest.
I'm convinced LE know this therefore their ducks must be perfectly aligned and mighty.
RIP sweet Abby and Libby.
We all want justice to prevail.
MOO
 
I tend to believe this killer was familiar with the area based on either living there or being a frequent visitor sometime prior to the murders. Maybe 5-10 years prior.

That said, I've wondered if there isn't something about this killer's background that would lend itself to quickly assessing an area. A hunter or maybe an avid hiker certainly comes to mind. Most of the hikers I know though seldom venture off the trails. Also a military background, specifically Marines or Army. I was Navy but in joint field exercises with Army units I was always amazed at the level of comfort and expertise of even the lower ranking soldiers when it came to being in the field. Another type of person - those that participate in the paintball games. Many of them do a lot of recon so they not only know the best way into an area, but the best way - or ways - out of the area. Your best soldiers, marines and paintball players are constantly analyzing the area as they move through it so they can spot possible ambush locations and exfil routes. Such persons might not have or even need prior experience with regard to these trails. One time through the area prior to the day of the murders might be all such a person mentioned above really needs.

I agree with the notion that this person is perfectly comfortable in the woods, which brings up all manner of possibilities in his background.

When I first heard about this case and started sleuthing it, my biggest goal early on was a strong desire to get a "feel" for where it happened, using Google satellite, Street View, Earth, and other resources. I looked at railroad and bridge enthusiast sites. There were two or three YouTube videos where people had visited in 2016. Etc.

I had to get a firm grasp of the orientation of the bridge (N, S, E, W), how the creek and bridge relate, the "lay of the land", etc. I learned how to read maps by age 7 or 8, old hard bound atlases and paper maps. It was just something that kind of interested me at a young age, although it's a pretty dry subject, mostly. Later in life this came in handy in the scouts, while hunting, while hiking, and in the military.

I picture BG being able to map things out in his mind, same as myself and other people talented at it. For some people it comes in handy in life, may even be applicable in an occupation, it definitely comes in handy in the military (I have stories about that), etc. Other things that come in handy in certain situations, outdoors:

1. Knowing distances, and being able to judge distances.

2. Keeping track of time, and even taking notes on how much time it takes to travel from point-to-point.

3. Judging terrain, how to traverse it, how much time it might take to travel across terrain.

4, Putting all of that together. In BG's case I picture "dry runs" before the murders, for just his own use and to put his own mind at ease, so to speak.

What am I looking for when I'm in an unfamiliar place in the middle of the woods? How to get out of there. If you're BG you want that peace of mind of knowing escape routes from the CS on RL's property, this is critical. Again, there's a possibility here he did dry runs in the past. Otherwise, I do not know how on Earth he would have known to go west through the woods, it's badly overgrown even in February. Which then brings up when he'd been there previously, times of the year. He very well could have done one dry run, so to speak, but I have my reservations about that.

I will expound on this some in a post further down, shortly.

He could have parked in the back of the cemetery, and I was convinced that was the case until last year's PC. But that doesn't jive with someone bent on concealment and ease of moving in and out of an area, and nobody remembering enough about him or a vehicle for identification to lead to an identification of BG. Reason why I say this is had he parked in the cemetery, and someone else parked there or even really close to his vehicle, there would have been a higher likelihood of identification of the vehicle and maybe even another description of BG from a witness, maybe other possibilities here, too.

That said, what made him so confident he could pull this off at the SE end of the bridge w/o someone (like LIbby or a different person) calling 911 or a relative or ? To me this shows total confidence, the SE end of the bridge was the trap, make it look all nonchalant, he's just crossing the bridge. Then go full-monster, while at the same time trying to keep his composure. Total surprise.

Some of what I write about this case comes from my own "map mind", I'm obsessed with how this guy got away with it, and the amount of effort it took to pull it off. He had to have had this all mapped out in his head, times memorized, etc.

The map in this case is important.

JMO
 
I think the article quoted above is a gem in terms of information. For me, these are the things that stand out:

-the case is not cold based on the number of tips that continue to come in, and based on the fact that evidence is being reviewed (this is an active case)
-there is DNA (of course we don't know if it is BGs but the way the article is written makes it sound hopeful that there is foreign DNA at the scene)
-there is 'suggestive' evidence of fingerprints (I'm not sure what 'suggestive' means, but the article implies the prints might be partial or smudged)
-evidence suggests the girls were killed on the property where their bodies were found (this can put to rest the notion they were abducted and brought back)
-LE has not determined if there is more than one perpetrator of the crime (this makes the 2 different sketches make more sense and changes my view of the crime)
-LE believes they have already interviewed the suspect, that he/they are local, and he will turn out to be a well-known community member and people will be shocked (all of this makes me think LE have narrowed the suspect pool considerably, and probably have someone in mind but not enough evidence to arrest).

Thanks for this, I'd posted the link to the article but was unable to read it.

-LE believes they have already interviewed the suspect, that he/they are local, and he will turn out to be a well-known community member and people will be shocked (all of this makes me think LE have narrowed the suspect pool considerably, and probably have someone in mind but not enough evidence to arrest).

Just chilling.

I believe they have been in contact with BG. In what capacity and when is anyone's guess.

It may explain why BG is so familiar with the creek along there, the bridge, and the trails on private property.

Locals interviewed shortly after the murders said they had no idea where the bridge was and how to get to it. I had trouble finding it with Google in 2017 on my trip out there, in recent times it dawned on me the the Street View and some of the GPS stuff had not been updated since 2008. 6 years before the highway was built and then opened. Which was roughly 2.5 years before the murders.

The roads and terrain just west of the area in question was altered drastically in a short period of time. The area where the murders happened hasn't changed much in decades, just more overgrown, now, mostly.

JMO
 
I had never heard of this guy before, Israel Keyes. But after reading about him I am astonished at the lengths he went to in order to perpetrate his crimes! The Delphi murders absolutely fit his MO, the only thing is he was incarcerated and died in prison in 2012. I wonder if this was a copy-cat?

IK was also incarcerated when the Evansdale murders took place...but I will look more into that case because I hadn’t heard of that one either. :(

Look into IK, and do yourself a favor and study the Evansdale murders. Websleuths is a gold mine of information about IK and the Iowa case, sadly a lot of the links are now dead but there's plenty of info. This site is a great resource.

I wonder if this was a copy-cat?

I often wonder myself ;-)

IK's first known victim was a juvenile, out alone in a wilderness area. She escaped.

His later victims were adults of various ages, in fact that one juvenile is the only young potential victim I'm aware of that he went after. But like any killer who repeats their killing, they have to get their confidence up.

I hope that's not the case with BG.

JMO
 
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