Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[SMK777]

I cant see BG as being young.

I can’t either.

 

[MistyWaters]

Could he have had a plan to abduct them and take them to his car, but then something happened: Liberty’s phone rang, or he was spooked at seeing a car, and they made a run for it, and he had to kill them there, whether or not anyone was home? ( of course this doesn’t make sense if you think about him having the time to stage them).

I agree, the way a crime is committed isn’t necessarily what was initially planned to happen. It’s not out of the realm of possibilities one or both girls were intended to be the target of an abduction by vehicle, instead they stuck together and resisted. The dirt road runs under the bridge, in fact they’d have to cross it after going “down the hill” towards the river - a possible convenient setup for a botched teen kidnapping IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

It may not be that investigators are protecting him. Could it be this person can't definitively be placed at the MHB on the day of the murders? IF (big if), the perpetrator is indeed a member (or former member) of LE, it is very possible his DNA may be found at the crime scene. (It can be explained away).

While anything is possible, I would hope with the number of LEO's involved in the case they wouldn't all try to cover-up or protect "one of their own"?Especially the FBI.

The Delphi police dept, Carroll County Sheriffs Office, the FBI, Indiana State Police, the Georgia ISP who reviewed the file - no, I think it’s totally ridiculous speculation that they’re protecting a rogue officer. Any one of these separate divisions would shrill at the recognition of breaking open this high profile case regardless of who the killer is or who he was associated with.

 

[MistyWaters]

If I remember correctly, there was a figure in black leaning against the tree in bitterbeatpoet’s post? Someone local, he even explained who it was? The photo you linked doesn’t have it.

On your photo - obviously, the bank the girls were found on is on the right? It is not high. Then, if they went “down the hill”, one of them could have been killed on the L bank and moved in the water to the R one? Could explain some clothes in the water, often mentioned in the discussion. Also, “200 lbs” is often mentioned as the proof that the girls could not be carried over, but with the water high + Archimedes’ law, it could be much easier in the water. MOO.

BBM

“Leazenby said, from the evidence found in the area, the victims were killed on the same property on which their bodies were found near the Monon High Bridge and the Deer Creek on Feb. 14, 2017.“
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

 

[TedMac]

The Delphi police dept, Carroll County Sheriffs Office, the FBI, Indiana State Police, the Georgia ISP who reviewed the file - no, I think it’s totally ridiculous speculation that they’re protecting a rogue officer. Any one of these separate divisions would shrill at the recognition of breaking open this high profile case regardless of who the killer is or who he was associated with.

BBM...Exactly. There is zero chance of a cover-up here. They would be risking at a minimum of being fired from their job and in all probability going to jail for obstruction of justice. This would never happen in a high profile case like this.

 

[SMK777]

It may not be that investigators are protecting him. Could it be this person can't definitively be placed at the MHB on the day of the murders? IF (big if), the perpetrator is indeed a member (or former member) of LE, it is very possible his DNA may be found at the crime scene. (It can be explained away).

While anything is possible, I would hope with the number of LEO's involved in the case they wouldn't all try to cover-up or protect "one of their own"?Especially the FBI.

It’s happened before, though, that they all cover up. All it takes is one or two higher ups “looking the other way”, and this sets the tone for the lower ones to keep their jobs and their lives. Wasn’t the Stephanie Lazarus case an example of that? (LAPD “neglected” to question her, look at her, for 20+ years).

 

[MistyWaters]

BBM...Exactly. There is zero chance of a cover-up here. They would be risking at a minimum of being fired from their job and in all probability going to jail for obstruction of justice. This would never happen in a high profile case like this.

Plus, the role of each the various divisions is to solve crimes. The leaders appear to be either elected or politically appointed and to solve a high profile crime is a huge career booster, to not can be a career breaker. That’s strong motivation to solve this crime. To cover up for a rogue cop....what would be in it for them but the embarrassment of intentionally allowing a high profile case grow cold. Rather than several different units in cahoots with each other in order to protect somebody, I’m certain the opposite is true and the multi-team task force creates a healthy independent competition. Whether they’re all cohesive in their theories of potential suspects, we don’t know but any one protecting somebody would surely stand out within this collective group.

JMO

 

[JDough]

It’s happened before, though, that they all cover up. All it takes is one or two higher ups “looking the other way”, and this sets the tone for the lower ones to keep their jobs and their lives. Wasn’t the Stephanie Lazarus case an example of that? (LAPD “neglected” to question her, look at her, for 20+ years).

I do not disagree.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Some great questions, here.

Could be there was "chatter" among some people about the 2017 sketch, or the perp himself has somehow communicated to LE or someone involved in the case (let your mind run wild with that one), information about the case only he would know. Cat-and-mouse type stuff.

I'm of the opinion the perp has watched "every move", I believe they very well could be right in these threads about the case, follow along in other forums, and watch YouTube carefully to see "what's new" on there.

To me, if fits the profile of that we already know from the case, as well as certain conclusions a lot of us have drawn, without actual evidence or revelations from LE.

There's a certain voyeuristic pleasure a lot of these killers take, in the aftermath of their unsolved crimes. I believe he takes great pleasure in the aftermath.

My question is will he try and pull off something even more sensational.

JMO

I think the killer has communicated with Supt. Carter through a reporter who has been featured in several interviews with Carter. I think the killer taunts police and I also think he will kill again but not in Indiana. He’s just waiting for his perfect opportunity to show off. e.g My POI lives in Michigan now and is self-employed. According to his FB he has freedom to travel to other states to visit and stay with friends and to house sit for relatives but he always returns to Michigan where he grew up. At the time of the murders he was employed 20 min. from Delphi and left the area after he lost his job. He spent a lot of time in the Indiana woods and there have been times I have thought that the Delphi murders were a desperate attempt to create a dramatic event which would have allowed him to keep the job he knew he was losing.

 

[JnRyan]

Yemeleyan I appreciate your response. I think a lot of your posts.

I think the answer to your question is that basically they have no evidence (none that they can make stick anyway), and they can't go around naming people POI's without some pretty strong basis - even if they want to put heat on someone they suspect.

If he was the one, he certainly wouldnt have had his phone with him that day. He might've used a vehicle from impound. Any DNA of his at the scene would have been explainable. He probably knew Delphi like the back of his hand.

No witness to the actual crime. No unexplainable DNA evidence found at the CS. No other evidence that ties him to the CS. And no confession. Sadly (and tragically) I'm afraid that this one may end up in the cold case file.

No unexplainable DNA found at the CS? I've always figured LE had either (1) partial DNA, (2) multiple unexplainable DNA, or (3) both. But I can think of many crimes I've followed or continue to follow where LE has announced they have DNA. Heidi Childs/David Metzler double murder - LE not only said they have DNA, but they know its the killer's DNA. Scottsdale PD announced they had DNA of Allison Feldman's killer. The Golden State Killer case. And others. Why has ISP, notably ISP 1st Sgt Holeman been coy about DNA? (At the 2018 CrimeCon he said they would neither confirm nor deny having DNA.) Maybe I should consider a 4th to the above. LE has NO unexplainable DNA and they don't want the killer to know that fact? The ISP spokesperson, Sgt Kim Riley, said in December 2018 they were submitting more evidence for testing. If LE already had DNA in Dec 2018, what else were they hoping to find?

 

[Yemelyan]

I think the answer to your question is that basically they have no evidence (none that they can make stick anyway), and they can't go around naming people POI's without some pretty strong basis - even if they want to put heat on someone they suspect.

If he was the one, he certainly wouldnt have had his phone with him that day. He might've used a vehicle from impound. Any DNA of his at the scene would have been explainable. He probably knew Delphi like the back of his hand.

No witness to the actual crime. No unexplainable DNA evidence found at the CS. No other evidence that ties him to the CS. And no confession. Sadly (and tragically) I'm afraid that this one may end up in the cold case file.

I think others have covered very well my thoughts re:a police cover-up. I think there's very little chance in a case this high profile and with so many outside agencies consulted on it that it could be successfully covered up.

IMO he doesn't resemble the video or the sketches. The body type seems wrong, he's older than the stated age range and his eyes are blue.

If you read the link I cited upthread about crime scene investigation, I think it would be very difficult to explain your DNA at a scene as scrutinized as this one, even if you were an officer. The first thing the FBI would have done to process the scene was immediately walk everyone who claimed to have been in the scene (on official duties) through exactly what they touched and where they stepped, establishing the path of contamination. He couldn't have accounted for every possible location of DNA transfer.

A lot of posters here have accepted the idea that all the DNA in this case is touch DNA. We really have no idea if this is true. If the DNA from the killer is blood, semen, saliva - and especially if it's on the bodies? It's not going to be possible to explain it and escape suspicion.

Why won't LE comment more specifically on what DNA they have? I think they are guarding against revealing that sexual assault occurred. If it occurred, they don't want that out there, whether that's to protect the families' privacy and grief, to avoid revealing details about the crime only the killer would know, to protect the integrity of the future prosecution of the case, or all of these.


For all I know, @Rush4087, your speculation is correct but part of what we do here is throw ideas out and then look for inaccuracies so we can eliminate ideas that have holes. So I hope you take my post in the spirit that's it's intended...just to test theories rigorously against known facts.

 

[TedMac]

I think others have covered very well my thoughts re:a police cover-up. I think there's very little chance in a case this high profile and with so many outside agencies consulted on it that it could be successfully covered up.

IMO he doesn't resemble the video or the sketches. The body type seems wrong, he's older than the stated age range and his eyes are blue.

If you read the link I cited upthread about crime scene investigation, I think it would be very difficult to explain your DNA at a scene as scrutinized as this one, even if you were an officer. The first thing the FBI would have done to process the scene was immediately walk everyone who claimed to have been in the scene (on official duties) through exactly what they touched and where they stepped, establishing the path of contamination. He couldn't have accounted for every possible location of DNA transfer.

A lot of posters here have accepted the idea that all the DNA in this case is touch DNA. We really have no idea if this is true. If the DNA from the killer is blood, semen, saliva - and especially if it's on the bodies? It's not going to be possible to explain it and escape suspicion.

Why won't LE comment more specifically on what DNA they have? I think they are guarding against revealing that sexual assault occurred. If it occurred, they don't want that out there, whether that's to protect the families' privacy and grief, to avoid revealing details about the crime only the killer would know, to protect the integrity of the future prosecution of the case, or all of these.


For all I know, @Rush4087, your speculation is correct but part of what we do here is throw ideas out and then look for inaccuracies so we can eliminate ideas that have holes. So I hope you take my post in the spirit that's it's intended...just to test theories rigorously against known facts.

BBM...As a former police officer I can say that LE tends to "not show all their face cards" when it comes to disclosing what evidence they do or do not have. My police days were before DNA, but I know some of the investigative techniques they use. Like you said above, they have stopped short of saying they have nothing more than touch DNA, but have implied that. I believe it is a good chance they have more than that and are being coy trying to make the perp think that is all they have. You mentioned the possibility of sexual assault and LE has never said one way or the other. But, if I am recalling correctly, one of the 1st things LE did when the bodies were discovered is reach out to all the registered sex offenders and interview them. While we do not know for sure, I believe that is very telling.

 

[JnRyan]

I think others have covered very well my thoughts re:a police cover-up. I think there's very little chance in a case this high profile and with so many outside agencies consulted on it that it could be successfully covered up.

IMO he doesn't resemble the video or the sketches. The body type seems wrong, he's older than the stated age range and his eyes are blue.

If you read the link I cited upthread about crime scene investigation, I think it would be very difficult to explain your DNA at a scene as scrutinized as this one, even if you were an officer. The first thing the FBI would have done to process the scene was immediately walk everyone who claimed to have been in the scene (on official duties) through exactly what they touched and where they stepped, establishing the path of contamination. He couldn't have accounted for every possible location of DNA transfer.

A lot of posters here have accepted the idea that all the DNA in this case is touch DNA. We really have no idea if this is true. If the DNA from the killer is blood, semen, saliva - and especially if it's on the bodies? It's not going to be possible to explain it and escape suspicion.

Why won't LE comment more specifically on what DNA they have? I think they are guarding against revealing that sexual assault occurred. If it occurred, they don't want that out there, whether that's to protect the families' privacy and grief, to avoid revealing details about the crime only the killer would know, to protect the integrity of the future prosecution of the case, or all of these.


For all I know, @Rush4087, your speculation is correct but part of what we do here is throw ideas out and then look for inaccuracies so we can eliminate ideas that have holes. So I hope you take my post in the spirit that's it's intended...just to test theories rigorously against known facts.

I believe the 'touch DNA' comes from the 2017 interview with ISP 1st Sgt Holeman, when asked if they have DNA, responded by stating that 'touch DNA' is a very powerful thing and almost all crime scenes will have DNA. He did not say one way or another in the interview whether or not they have DNA. That is closest I've ever heard LE talk about any type of DNA - touch, blood, semen, etc. Does that mean they don't have DNA from something other than touch? We don't know, but that interview is probably what started the discussion of touch DNA.

 

[Yuletide]

If you look at the way the killer is dressed vs the two victims; he was very overdressed for the weather. JMHO, he was over dressed for the purpose of disguise and to prevent fight back injury. His jacket has something in under it or in the pocket. Most likely a gun. I do believe he set out that day in search of a victim. He chose Abby and Libby, but not in advance. He was able to isolate them. He was familiar with the area for certain.

 

[TedMac]

If you look at the way the killer is dressed vs the two victims; he was very overdressed for the weather. JMHO, he was over dressed for the purpose of disguise and to prevent fight back injury. His jacket has something in under it or in the pocket. Most likely a gun. I do believe he set out that day in search of a victim. He chose Abby and Libby, but not in advance. He was able to isolate them. He was familiar with the area for certain.

I agree 100% with everything in your post.

 

[Yemelyan]

I believe the 'touch DNA' comes from the 2017 interview with ISP 1st Sgt Holeman, when asked if they have DNA, responded by stating that 'touch DNA' is a very powerful thing and almost all crime scenes will have DNA. He did not say one way or another in the interview whether or not they have DNA. That is closest I've ever heard LE talk about any type of DNA - touch, blood, semen, etc. Does that mean they don't have DNA from something other than touch? We don't know, but that interview is probably what started the discussion of touch DNA.

I think you misremember, @JnRyan. Holeman didn't say the words you attributed to him above. The quote is in this article:

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence | Fox 59

His quote:
"At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman.

When people read this they did start to speculate on why he didn't say specifically what DNA they had. Some might have suggested it was only touch DNA at that time but the moment that many here began to consider the touch DNA only idea gospel was much later. It was actually after a GH program where a man called in who wanted to remain anonymous but wanted to pass along bits of info about the investigation, one of which was that the only DNA recovered was touch DNA from the shoulder of one girl's sweatshirt.

I know that GH is considered an official source here but without knowing the details of HIS anonymous source on this one, I don't put 100% belief in it. IMO

 

[Yemelyan]

BBM...As a former police officer I can say that LE tends to "not show all their face cards" when it comes to disclosing what evidence they do or do not have. My police days were before DNA, but I know some of the investigative techniques they use. Like you said above, they have stopped short of saying they have nothing more than touch DNA, but have implied that. I believe it is a good chance they have more than that and are being coy trying to make the perp think that is all they have. You mentioned the possibility of sexual assault and LE has never said one way or the other. But, if I am recalling correctly, one of the 1st things LE did when the bodies were discovered is reach out to all the registered sex offenders and interview them. While we do not know for sure, I believe that is very telling.

100% agree!! Never mind what they didn't confirm for the public, look at what they actually did to investigate the case.

 

[JnRyan]

I think you misremember, @JnRyan. Holeman didn't say the words you attributed to him above. The quote is in this article:

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence | Fox 59

His quote:
"At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman.

When people read this they did start to speculate on why he didn't say specifically what DNA they had. Some might have suggested it was only touch DNA at that time but the moment that many here began to consider the touch DNA only idea gospel was much later. It was actually after a GH program where a man called in who wanted to remain anonymous but wanted to pass along bits of info about the investigation, one of which was that the only DNA recovered was touch DNA from the shoulder of one girl's sweatshirt.

I know that GH is considered an official source here but without knowing the details of HIS anonymous source on this one, I don't put 100% belief in it. IMO

I don't believe either of us can say one way or another because it appears the video can't be loaded. That is only part of what he said and you don't get the full context with a partial quote.

 

[Yemelyan]

I don't believe either of us can say one way or another because it appears the video can't be loaded. That is only part of what he said and you don't get the full context with a partial quote.

He was clearly doing his best to not reveal what they had. If he threw out touch DNA later in his comment, as an example of a type of DNA that's always present, it's still by no means a confirmation that touch DNA is all they have to work with. And I stand by my statement that the majority of people only began saying "it's definitely only touch DNA" after the GH call in show I mentioned.

 

[JnRyan]

I don't believe either of us can say one way or another because it appears the video can't be loaded. That is only part of what he said and you don't get the full context with a partial quote.

To follow up on my previous post here is the 2018 CrimeCon where ISP 1st Sgt Holeman states that they will not confirm or deny whether they have DNA. From 16:00 to 16:30 in the video. This was a year after the August 2017 interview.
Video of the Crime Con Interview (FULL) : DelphiMurders