Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[Rossymom]

I'm not familiar with those. Do those who live there have Deer Creek addresses?
RL's addy is listed as Delphi so I assumed the bodies were found in Delphi.

Our children played their all star (baseball) games in Deer Creek. I’ll do some research and see where it is. I remember we were not far from Galveston. The ball fields were out in the middle of cornfields. Their Little League fields were called Deer Creek too. I just don’t know if it’s called a town. Does that make sense?

 

[Yuletide]

Why are people interested in reading about horrendous crimes? I seriously don’t know the answer which is why I’m asking.

I am only interested until the creep is behind bars. Can’t answer for everyone else

 

[Yemelyan]

The Shack played on tbe local TV market in Indiana, it was a community event, many watched it together.
MOO Carter mentioned it because everyone had just seen the movie andot was ptetty topical.

Yes, he was asked why he mentioned it and he gave a clear answer in the podcast Scene of the Crime, episode "A New Direction," about minute 50:

Narrator: After the press conference, online sleuths went into overdrive, questioning whether Carter's references to The Shack could be a coded message to the killer, or perhaps a confirmation that Abby and Libby's deaths has involved a shack....On our behalf, Kelsi German asked Superintendent Carter about his reference to The Shack.

KG: Another thing..."The Shack" was used in it (note: "it" is the April 2019 press conference). Was that on purpose?
DC: It was. Have you seen "The Shack?"
KG: I have. I watched it twice.
DC: Then you know what I mean.
KG: Yeah. So I think, one of the big rumors going around is that they died in a shack or that there has to be, you know, some other meaning than faith to it, which is something (note: "something" is the rumor) that we were trying to, kind of, get rid of.
DC: There was no shack. But that had a really, really, uh, compelling effect on me.
KG: Yeah, I think that movie in general - the first time I watched it, it had zero effect on me. I kind of sat through it and watched it and saw no meaning behind it because I just wanted to watch it as a movie. Then the second time I went back and watched it I cried the entire movie....
DC: I have to say, it had the same effect on me. In a different way. Because, you know, I don't understand what it's like to lose a sister but that movie had such a profound effect on everything about our life, that it was worth mentioning.


Source: Delphi: A New Direction - Listen - Scene of the Crime

Yeah, I know - he could be lying, but I don't think so. The family (who were involved in the production of this podcast) wanted to dispel rumors that were getting out of hand and he obliged by explaining why he brought it up. He says there was no shack involved, and the movie had such a profound effect on him that he thought he'd mention it. Those are his words.

Edit to say - I know it's boring to think that he just happened to mention a movie that he liked, but it seems from his answer that's what it indeed was.

 

[AC4RD]

... The crime scene is about the length of a football field from Robinson’s back door. ...
Unless this early reporting was incorrect about the location the girls were found, a football field would be in the vicinity of RL's far south-eastern lot, along the southern boundary bordering the creek. The assumed below-cemetery body location would be closer to 1500 feet, as the crow flies (over 4 football field lengths) from their place.

I've just spent a half-hour trying to find a GH youtube video I saw at one point, showing news photos or footage from searches. I can't find it, sorry; I do recall that GH identified crime scene tape in some locations and used that to show the location of the bodies. The location shown, as I recall, was there below the cemetary, where it's usually assumed to be. (Sorry to be so vague.)

I do agree that the location is important to our understanding of what happened, as you say. Personally, I think a lot of people say "a half-mile" or "45 yards" or whatever, casually without intending it to be very specific--or perhaps not knowing how incorrect that guessed-upon distance really is. I won't be surprised if you are right that there's something significant in the discrepancies, but think it's not very likely, myself.

 

[Lavender Moon]

Well, for one, the book includes that serial killer called Little Ladykiller.

It's an explicitly religious work, though nonstandard theology, so I think there's a connection to religion that's more than the consolation of the girls being in heaven. If they wanted that, they could have referred directly to Biblical texts or other, less controversial books. That plus the appeal to the killer's conscience has made me think possibly the killer tracked the girls through church, Sunday School, or other church-related activity.

Physical shack is a possibility.

I have wondered whether there was something at the scene to make them think the killer had read the book.

Those are intriguing points. Thank you!

 

[zencompass]

I've just spent a half-hour trying to find a GH youtube video I saw at one point, showing news photos or footage from searches. I can't find it, sorry; I do recall that GH identified crime scene tape in some locations and used that to show the location of the bodies. The location shown, as I recall, was there below the cemetary, where it's usually assumed to be. (Sorry to be so vague.)

I do agree that the location is important to our understanding of what happened, as you say. Personally, I think a lot of people say "a half-mile" or "45 yards" or whatever, casually without intending it to be very specific--or perhaps not knowing how incorrect that guessed-upon distance really is. I won't be surprised if you are right that there's something significant in the discrepancies, but think it's not very likely, myself.

Here's an excellent map which one of our wonderful posters, @skibaboo, created a few years ago. She included so much information!

We can zero in on the areas and watch news videos/articles/videos of the area/surrounding bridge area.

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

Thank you @skibaboo for all of your hard work in creating this map - as well as all of the maps for other threads as well! You are greatly appreciated!

 

[AC4RD]

Here's an excellent map which one of our wonderful posters, @skibaboo, created a few years ago. She included so much information!

We can zero in on the areas and watch news videos/articles/videos of the area/surrounding bridge area.

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

Thank you @skibaboo for all of your hard work in creating this map - as well as all of the maps for other threads as well! You are greatly appreciated!

That IS a good map, thank you! With all the trees green (summer photo, I suppose), it's a very pretty area. And that's pretty much the area that GH indicated as the bodies' location.

 

[MistyWaters]

Here's an excellent map which one of our wonderful posters, @skibaboo, created a few years ago. She included so much information!

We can zero in on the areas and watch news videos/articles/videos of the area/surrounding bridge area.

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

Thank you @skibaboo for all of your hard work in creating this map - as well as all of the maps for other threads as well! You are greatly appreciated!

Much of the information released in the media is contradictory and confusing and we’ve already extensively discussed the contradictory details, including the distance to the bridge and where Kelsi says Libby’s shoe was found. RL only saw some police tape and from that assumptions were made as to the location of the bodies. My conclusion is LE doesn’t want the public to know the exact spot as it’s part of their holdback information which only the killer knows for sure. That’s seems highly likely to me as a tip on who the perpetrator is wouldn’t be dependant on the exact location, especially in a wooded area. JMO

 

[carbuff]

@Yemelyan (not going to quote the whole long post), yes, I agree that's all probably true. I just don't know whether it's the whole story.

 

[acutename]

The FBI poster says he was wearing a hoodie and hoodies have strings attached to the hood part. That’s what I think the white is - white strings, somewhat pixelated. The hoodie is brown and the hood is up, also it hangs below the bottom of the blue jacket and his hands are in the pockets. Not very mysterious I know but I can’t unsee it.

View attachment 328195

Indiana authorities looking for person of interest in murder of teens Libby German and Abby Williams

In this picture, it almost looks as if he has one hand in the hoodie pocket (right hand) and the other hand in his pants' pocket (left hand) which would be a weird imbalanced way to walk. (A friend, BTW, had a jacket with mesh pockets, and if he loaded them up with keys and heavy stuff, they would actually hang below the jacket, before they ultimately ripped.)

 

[Yemelyan]

@Yemelyan (not going to quote the whole long post), yes, I agree that's all probably true. I just don't know whether it's the whole story.

None of us know the whole story on any aspect of this case and that is by design IMO, however, there is something to that old adage that doctors use: "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." In this case I totally understand that it would be awesome if "The Shack" was zebras because it would mean LE have a pretty good lead. But he actually took the time to clear up for us it was just boring horses.

 

[zencompass]

To get a better idea of the path towards the crime scene,

ABC news RTV6 footage from their news helicopter on February 14, 2017 shows the police searching the water and the aerial view of the entire area.

They zoom in on the searchers around 18:39 video time (and earlier in the video as well)

Some photos of the searchers on Feb 14 2017 are also on @skibaboo's map

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

 

[carbuff]

None of us know the whole story on any aspect of this case and that is by design IMO, however, there is something to that old adage that doctors use: "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." In this case I totally understand that it would be awesome if "The Shack" was zebras because it would mean LE have a pretty good lead. But he actually took the time to clear up for us it was just boring horses.

Yeah, most likely that's correct.

(And I won't go on to list antelope, deer, bison, water buffalo, wapiti, reindeer, ibex, impala...)

 

[pearl]

I don't think they made that shack reference by accident. Beats me what it means, though I have my ideas.

I agree. The reference was too specific to not be considered important. If I were going to pull something out of thin air, as my grandmother used to say, it would not be something so unknown to most of the people I was talking to. A large percentage of the people hearing the reference probably had to familiarize themselves to the book. I know I did.

 

[TL4S]

Much of the information released in the media is contradictory and confusing and we’ve already extensively discussed the contradictory details, including the distance to the bridge and where Kelsi says Libby’s shoe was found. RL only saw some police tape and from that assumptions were made as to the location of the bodies. My conclusion is LE doesn’t want the public to know the exact spot as it’s part of their holdback information which only the killer knows for sure. That’s seems highly likely to me as a tip on who the perpetrator is wouldn’t be dependant on the exact location, especially in a wooded area. JMO

I agree with this possibility.

One thing that has always bothered me is the creek crossing. Why do that? If the assumed location below the cemetery is where the bodies were found, that means BG walked them (and himself) through cold running water, up an embankment, and all to gain a couple hundred feet. Did that extra distance honestly isolate them from view that much better than if he killed them just below the house on the hill south of the creek? One of the photos from skibaboo's map was taken from the assumed crime scene looking toward the bridge. You can see the bridge, which means from the bridge, you can see the assumed crime scene (albeit from quite a distance). And I've also read that the assumed crime scene can be seen from the house on the hill. So was crossing the creek really worth it? Jmo.

In reality, BG might very well have done this at that location regardless of there being better, more isolating choices. And this is barring the girls didn't run across in an attempt to flee.

But, my thought is that maybe to make the creek crossing logical, BG had more to gain than a couple hundred feet, like maybe closer to a quarter mile distance. Jmo...

 

[Charlot123]

None of us know the whole story on any aspect of this case and that is by design IMO, however, there is something to that old adage that doctors use: "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." In this case I totally understand that it would be awesome if "The Shack" was zebras because it would mean LE have a pretty good lead. But he actually took the time to clear up for us it was just boring horses.

Only DC is not accountable to us, the laymen. He was addressing his monologue "directly to the killer". (Probably, also taking into consideration the feelings of the families). So whatever he said at that moment, and however he interpreted it later for the public, might still differ.

In a way, knowing that DC is very religious, i believe he could have achieved several goals by mentioning the film. One, giving some pragmatic hint "directly to the killer". Two, appealing to whatever shreds of religious consciousness the killer, per DC, might still have. Three, perhaps consoling the families and the citizens of Delphi by alluding to "the Shack". Four, spreading the knowledge about the movie among broader public who might have been unaware of it.

I think all of it could be true.

However, what slightly bothers me is the fact that DC views the killer as religious one. What if the man is not, or is "losing his religion". Could ISP be making an error here, a type II error, and cutting off a whole group?

 

[Georgia8]

Only DC is not accountable to us, the laymen. He was addressing his monologue "directly to the killer". (Probably, also taking into consideration the feelings of the families). So whatever he said at that moment, and however he interpreted it later for the public, might still differ.

In a way, knowing that DC is very religious, i believe he could have achieved several goals by mentioning the film. One, giving some pragmatic hint "directly to the killer". Two, appealing to whatever shreds of religious consciousness the killer, per DC, might still have. Three, perhaps consoling the families and the citizens of Delphi by alluding to "the Shack". Four, spreading the knowledge about the movie among broader public who might have been unaware of it.

I think all of it could be true.

However, what slightly bothers me is the fact that DC views the killer as religious one. What if the man is not, or is "losing his religion". Could ISP be making an error here, a type II error, and cutting off a whole group?

1. Has T.B. been discussed as a suspect here? Convicted of another homicide which some unusual if not to say bizarre elements and pastor of a defunct church. Perhaps it is o.k. to use his name (?), not sure.

2. is a bit of inevitable dissonance on the thread I think since profilers like Kelly are allowed and yet they consider and include non WS approved sources. Not complaining about this just stating.

 

[Yemelyan]

1. Has T.B. been discussed as a suspect here? Convicted of another homicide which some unusual if not to say bizarre elements and pastor of a defunct church. Perhaps it is o.k. to use his name (?), not sure.

2. is a bit of inevitable dissonance on the thread I think since profilers like Kelly are allowed and yet they consider and include non WS approved sources. Not complaining about this just stating.

He was discussed a great deal in earlier threads (at the time that he committed the other crime and came to the attention of the public/LE).

 

[Yemelyan]

However, what slightly bothers me is the fact that DC views the killer as religious one. What if the man is not, or is "losing his religion". Could ISP be making an error here, a type II error, and cutting off a whole group?

Snipped by me ...I would be much more worried about this if any of the actual detectives (Holeman etc) were espousing this view. Remember Carter is not an investigator. He's a political appointee and he was never a detective at any point. His current job is to be the public "face" of the ISP and the position is heavily tied to public relations. He is responsible for this crime being solved in a "buck stops here" kind of way but I think by virtue of his position he is highly accountable to, and does attempt to relate to the public in ways that the actual investigators are not. I highly doubt any of his opinions about human nature or religious guilt are heavily informing the investigation.

Carter has also made other comments about the killer waking up every day and going to sleep every night with this action weighing heavily on his soul and that is pretty much the opposite of what a lot of FBI criminologists have opined about this killer. Is this based on special knowledge Carter has about the crime? Maybe. I can see why people would want to believe this because it would mean, as I indicated before, that LE have some very good leads to follow. But more likely IMO it's just his own worldview given everything else he has told us about himself and how focused he has been on the people of Delphi and how they were affected by this.

 

[MistyWaters]

Snipped by me ...I would be much more worried about this if any of the actual detectives (Holeman etc) were espousing this view. Remember Carter is not an investigator. He's a political appointee and he was never a detective at any point. His current job is to be the public "face" of the ISP and the position is heavily tied to public relations. He is responsible for this crime being solved in a "buck stops here" kind of way but I think by virtue of his position he is highly accountable to, and does attempt to relate to the public in ways that the actual investigators are not. I highly doubt any of his opinions about human nature or religious guilt are heavily informing the investigation.

Carter has also made other comments about the killer waking up every day and going to sleep every night with this action weighing heavily on his soul and that is pretty much the opposite of what a lot of FBI criminologists have opined about this killer. Is this based on special knowledge Carter has about the crime? Maybe. I can see why people would want to believe this because it would mean, as I indicated before, that LE have some very good leads to follow. But more likely IMO it's just his own worldview given everything else he has told us about himself and how focused he has been on the people of Delphi and how they were affected by this.

What you write is very important to consider. I think how Carter has presented himself leaves some people believing his sole focus is that of an investigator who’s actively involved in working this case. But as superintendent of ISP it seems to me his objective is to inspire confidence in the ISP and their police work.

I recall many who were convinced there was going to be an arrest within two weeks because the media was asked to give the family some space. So much for reading into words….