Is TH Responsible in any way for the Disappearance of Kyron? **NO DISCUSSION**

[gwenabob]

I have a problem with the morning of the science fair. If it was posted in the front of the school that there was a I.B. Inquiry Expo. from 8 to 10. Why would Kyron have to be back at class at 8:45, the expo lasted until 10:00. Doesn't that mean that all parents and guests would be there until 10:00, and the students didn't have to be there in their class until 10:00. What was Kyron supposed to be doing from 8:45 until 10:00 after Terry said she left him in front of his room?

The expo was open for parents to visit the exhibits from 8-8:45. At 8:45 the kids were to meet in class to tour the exhibits in small groups. Many of the kids ride the bus to school and could not get there early to see the exhibits. At 10:00, they would reconvene in their classrooms to start their regular school day. I think it confused everyone at first when they were saying school didn't start until 10. It started at the regular 8:45 time, but their regular class activities (taking roll, etc.) did not start until 10.

 

[Calliope]

I'm sorry you have to see a nephrologist.

Thanks. He's a nice guy, and we spend a couple of hours at each appointment just shooting the breeze while he does his thing. On my next visit, if I remember, I'll slip in some questions about the state of nephrology care in Canada lol.

 

[Calliope]

The expo was open for parents to visit the exhibits from 8-8:45. At 8:45 the kids were to meet in class to tour the exhibits in small groups. Many of the kids ride the bus to school and could not get there early to see the exhibits. At 10:00, they would reconvene in their classrooms to start their regular school day. I think it confused everyone at first when they were saying school didn't start until 10. It started at the regular 8:45 time, but their regular class activities (taking roll, etc.) did not start until 10.

Yeah.. to me that always read as school started at its normal time, and it was the kids who toured that last hour, not parents. So I wonder if the question Kaine has about Terri stating she wanted to bring his project home after the fair isn't just a misunderstanding on both parts. It's quite possible she didn't know the specifics until she got to school, didn't want to just hang around until 10 (especially with an allegedly fussy/teething baby), so she decided to go do her errands and figured she'd pick it up later. That makes the most sense to me, and I don't understand Kaine's confusion, other than he said he never thought about it until recently and he obviously wasn't talking to Terri at that point in order to clarify what happened.

 

[LotsaLatte]

Today I believe that TH is involved in some manner with Kyron's disappearance. I am basing my belief on several things that we know and the things that we don't know (because TH simply has not addressed anything.) I thought of something a bit ago and wanted to know if anyone else thinks it's possible. With all of her careful planning, organizational skills, and knowledge of forensics gleaned from CSI, etc., IF she (and maybe a friend or two) had to dispose of a body, she/they would do so in a manner to make it look like someone else was the person to harm Kyron? I mean like near the home of an RSO, School employee, other parent, etc. Kind of like framing someone else. I really think that if she did bring harm to Kyron, she really didn't ever think she'd be suspected of doing so. Like she was never going to be looked at but just in case he was found, she would dupe everone. I hope that made sense. Just thinking outloud here.
And was it ever discussed that maybe DS was called or something to take care of the baby K for a bit. I might be off on the timeline on that last part. Way past time for bed. night all.

 

[xin]

O/T: Wonder why there are so relatively few posts today. No news? Drop in traffic? Nuking more posts than usual? That's what's up at the Oregonian. It's almost like a whole gaggle of posters has disappeared. TIA for comments.

PS OK, stuff is seriously getting pulled off the web, started last night. Anybody? Comment?

IMHO

 

[GrainneDhu]

Problem is, we have no idea if Terri displayed these behaviors or not. In fact (as your source brings up), her alleged inability to pass more than one polygraph makes me think not.

---

Like I said earlier today, I don't know what I think any more.

Last night, my head was spinning trying to make sense of all this, and I turned on the TV. The show was about half over, but as I started watching it was discussing a case of a 6 year old girl, Michelle Dorr, who went missing while on visitation with her father (mom had custody). His story was vague, a huge chunk of time unaccounted for, no real alibi. He was the last to have seen her alive. He failed polys. After this, police put on the pressure considering him the prime suspect. There was very strange behavior on his part, and with intense police pressure he (according to a psychiatrist) actually broke and ended up under psychiatric treatment. The girl's mom accused him of murdering Michelle, even to go as far as stating he told her he'd done it and where he'd buried the body. She made other public accusations that painted him as a monster. He even at one point confessed then recanted the confession. Police never had enough evidence to pin this on him, but although he remained free, he was a pariah. Everywhere he went, people knew he was the *advertiser censored* who'd murdered his daughter and got away with it.

Only he didn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadden_Clark#Murders (warning, the entry is beyond disturbing)

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/clark/index_1.html

I saw this father being interviewed, telling what he went through during that time. To say he was haunted by this would be a major understatement, not only knowing how his little girl was murdered but that for years he was suspected of doing so. And I was struck at the similarities with this case, in how it was determined by so many that he was 'guilty' of killing his daughter.

This is exactly the sort of mistake that haunts me. I don't believe that LE in general is corrupt or evil (although there are certainly individual officers and even units that clearly are). But I do believe that they are human and prey to all the limitations that are a normal part of being human.

A couple things about Carl Dorr's experience stood out for me.

First, wouldn't it be convenient if victims all lived conventional, saint-like lives? None of this messy human stuff to confuse the picture.

Second, Carl Dorr either told a stupid lie or he made a stupid mistake: he said he'd last seen Michele at around 2:10 pm when the reality was that he actually last saw her around noon.

This led to the real perp going free, even though his behaviour during police interviews was weird as all get out and he actually made a partial (very vague) confession. Or maybe it wasn't a confession, it's hard to say for sure.

To me, this is like the most recent paradigm shift in economics: surprise! human beings don't always act rationally or in their own best interests. Economists have been stunned, stunned to realise this (and it isn't even completely accepted yet).

Under stress humans shed IQ points like crazy. They make mistakes and they make decisions that would seem totally stupid if they were in a rational state. But they aren't in a rational state, they are stressed.

 

[Calliope]

O/T: Wonder why there are so relatively few posts today. No news? Drop in traffic? Nuking more posts than usual? That's what's up at the Oregonian. It's almost like a whole gaggle of posters has disappeared. TIA for comments.

PS OK, stuff is seriously getting pulled off the web, started last night. Anybody? Comment?

IMHO

I'm not sure what you mean. What's getting pulled of the web?

 

[xin]

I'm not sure what you mean. What's getting pulled of the web?

Lots of comments on the oregon news site are getting pulled by mods. It appears.

IMHO

 

[GrainneDhu]

I want to know if the information Kaine demanded (through his divorce counsel) to know about - the $350,000 paid retainer - is accurate - as to the retainer paid to Houze.

Because...IMO...THAT would sure say lots about the emminent Houze's expectation for the amount of defending of Terri that he's going to be doing over the next year or more...

If that retainer amount is for real, then Houze knows things - either from Terri or from LE or from both - that indicate this is real, and Houze is ready for a long haul.

:cow:

According to TMH's divorce attorney, Houze's retainer was "grossly overstated."

And yet KH's petition states that the amount was stated by TMH in an email to a third party (which suggests to me that it is amongst the text and email messages LE has shared with KH).

I am reluctant to accuse either side of lying without further evidence and yet, clearly, both cannot be accurate as stated.

Could it be that it was a typo?

If so, I will be laughing hysterically. Back in my misspent (but very much enjoyed) youth, I rode horses. I was at a show with a friend who was looking for a young prospect and was rather taken by a chestnut gelding, very flashy, nice mover but no real training or accomplishments yet.

Back then (and probably still today), there was a sort of choreography to these things. She didn't want to reveal her interest directly, so she sent me to look at the horse and talk to the trainer to get a feel for around how much he was thinking the colt was worth.

I chatted up the trainer, went with him to get the colt out and move him around a little, admired him a lot and then asked what ballpark figure the trainer was thinking of. He replied "thirty five" and I went back to my friend with that info.

Now, I thought the trainer meant "thirty five hundred" which at that time was at the high end of what a promising colt would cost (and a not impossible figure for a new car... does that date me?). This was somewhat higher than my friend was wanting to pay but it was a given that the trainer was no doubt overstating the figure a bit.

So my friend took the next step, went to talk to the trainer herself. She came back laughing her head off in disbelief.

Turns out that the trainer had meant thirty five THOUSAND dollars!!!

WHOA!

If Houze's retainer was actually $35K rather than $350K, that would really change the implications of his involvement in the case, I think.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thank you for posting this. It supports my opinion that I have no idea if TH is responsible or not because all we have heard are allegations. This motion is nothing but allegations. I have NEVER seen a motion that is all allegations without even one piece of supporting evidence. Just because an attorney says it, does not make it true.

After their allegations their should be a reference to the supporting documentation being attached as an exhibit. I can see if they had to keep the "evidence" sealed because of the LE investigation. But they have to "provide" the court with the evidence for the Judge to determine if the evidence supports the allegations. There should be references to attached exhibits and/or exhibit list but there is not.

SBM

I know from personal experience that in my state, emergency ROs are issued on the basis of allegations alone. No supporting documentation needed.

The judge examines the petition to make sure that the allegations fall within the parameters set out under law for emergency ROs; if they do, the order is automatically granted.

If the respondent chooses to challenge the RO, then the petitioner has to present evidence to the court (a show-cause hearing).

If the respondent does not choose to challenge the RO, then the emergency restraining order automatically becomes a lasting restraining order.

I know that many other states operate the same way.

My example would be the 2005 David Letterman case, where a woman filed for and received a temporary RO against David Letterman, prohibiting him from coming within three yards of her. She alleged that he was using code words, gestures and eye expressions during his TV show to convey secret messages to her.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,1144343,00.html

I doubt that the judge in the case really believed the petitioner but the judge's beliefs are not called into question at the time an emergency RO is issued.

I know that the reason my state (which is not New Mexico) does it this way is to balance the needs of victims against the rights of respondents. A victim of domestic violence may need the immediate protection of a restraining order but not have enough time to immediately gather the supporting documentation.

The respondent's right to freedom of movement and association should not be unduly abridged, so the respondent is given the guarantee of a swift hearing if they choose to challenge (in my state, the show-cause hearing must happen within ten days after the respondent files to challenge).

It's not perfect solution but it's the best that legislators could come up with.

 

[Calliope]

This is exactly the sort of mistake that haunts me. I don't believe that LE in general is corrupt or evil (although there are certainly individual officers and even units that clearly are). But I do believe that they are human and prey to all the limitations that are a normal part of being human.

A couple things about Carl Dorr's experience stood out for me.

First, wouldn't it be convenient if victims all lived conventional, saint-like lives? None of this messy human stuff to confuse the picture.

Second, Carl Dorr either told a stupid lie or he made a stupid mistake: he said he'd last seen Michele at around 2:10 pm when the reality was that he actually last saw her around noon.

This led to the real perp going free, even though his behaviour during police interviews was weird as all get out and he actually made a partial (very vague) confession. Or maybe it wasn't a confession, it's hard to say for sure.

To me, this is like the most recent paradigm shift in economics: surprise! human beings don't always act rationally or in their own best interests. Economists have been stunned, stunned to realise this (and it isn't even completely accepted yet).

Under stress humans shed IQ points like crazy. They make mistakes and they make decisions that would seem totally stupid if they were in a rational state. But they aren't in a rational state, they are stressed.

bbm

You must be channeling me lol.

I just got home from making a quick run to the store, and during the drive I was thinking of this exact same thing.

Dorr panicked and lied, afraid he'd be seen as negligent, have his visitation taken away, whatever. But because he'd shaved off those 2 hours of time, it gave Clark an 'air-tight' alibi; the police knew he couldn't have abducted and murdered the girl and disposed of her body in the span of 45 minutes. So for fourteen years there was no resolution to this case and no justice for Michelle. And for fourteen years, this hung over her father's head, and everyone just knew he'd killed his daughter.

This was before there was any internet to speak of (well not like it is now). Can you imagine what would happen to Mr. Door today??? I know there are some who claim this is no big deal, but it most certainly is. I can't imagine the hell he went through losing his daughter ... and then to add to that, being convicted of murdering her in the eyes of the public, media and police.

Is it possible that Terri panicked and lied? That she was involved in something immoral or illegal or just plain stupid --- but not involved in whatever happened to Kyron? The Dorr case isn't the only one where I"ve heard of innocent people not telling the truth, for whatever reason. Given her odd and inappropriate behavior, and (IMO) very emotionally immature, naive and needy personality, I can see her doing something really stupid or risky and not wanting it to be known to family and especially the community (goodbye future teaching jobs). Maybe whatever it was she did is what put Kyron at risk, even if she wasn't directly involved or even aware.

Something else that is haunting. Clark went on to kill at least one other person that we know of. Thankfully, he was psychotic. I say that because he saw a fellow inmate who he believed was Jesus (photo in the link). He confessed to "Jesus" and led police to areas where he'd buried other bodies, but because of time and elements, nothing was found. However, they did believe his claim that he'd killed many; on his family estate they found a bucket buried containing 200 pieces of jewelry, just as he described. He took the jewelry from his victims as souvenirs.

There is a big part of me that hopes it IS Terri who did *whatever* to Kyron. Because if it's NOT ...

 

[Calliope]

Lots of comments on the oregon news site are getting pulled by mods. It appears.

IMHO

Threats of legal action, perhaps?

I think we're beginning to see Terri's defense team starting to flex it's muscles, so to speak.

 

[palladore]

O/T: Wonder why there are so relatively few posts today. No news? Drop in traffic? Nuking more posts than usual? That's what's up at the Oregonian.
IMHO

There is no new news (other than relationship/divorce stuff) and Kyron''s disappearance is slipping from the front page. The local news media is spinning and rehashing sound bites from past interviews and news conferences, but it is flabby column filler. Life in news rooms moves on.

 

[JustyThoughts]

I think that the "no news" news conference took the wind out of the sails and that may be the reason that comments/posts are fewer right now. Everyone is seeking information and details that will lead to the whereabouts of Kyron. There was a huge build-up to the news conference (by both LE and media). That it turned out to be a "no news" event (no details of investigation, no Q & A, no new information or confirmations). Seems everyone was disappointed that the conference did not even... throw a bone. I guess we just continue to wait.

 

[Calliope]

The reporters and crews were ticked off. It will be interesting to see how they respond the next time the SO requests questions or sets up a PC.

I used to date a wire service photographer, and I've seen what goes in to setting up media for an event. It's time consuming and sometimes a bit chaotic. No one likes to be played for a fool, and I doubt these people appreciated taking all that time out of their day prepping and setting up, for what transpired.

 

[BeanE]

The reporters and crews were ticked off. It will be interesting to see how they respond the next time the SO requests questions or sets up a PC.

I used to date a wire service photographer, and I've seen what goes in to setting up media for an event. It's time consuming and sometimes a bit chaotic. No one likes to be played for a fool, and I doubt these people appreciated taking all that time out of their day prepping and setting up, for what transpired.

It was their own fault IMO. They had been told what the presser was for, well in advance. They chose in the interim to hype rumors and speculation in true tabloid fashion. "Arrest of Terri imminent!" etc.

Somehow, for reasons I can't fathom, they expected LE, rather than to proceed with exactly what they said they were going to do, and to proceed with reality, that LE would drum up something they didn't have, and go along with the tabloidesque frenzy.

I hope the media learned the valuable lesson here - stick with reality. Return to journal and knock off the gossip frenzy. Give the public real information - or nothing at all. You can't do that kind of stuff and not get caught with your pants down.

All any member of the media had to do was to make a quick phone to Lt. Mary and ask if there was any change in the purpose of the presser from what LE released to the press on July 21. Or maybe the media did that. And maybe Lt. Mary said no, no change. Who knows?

 

[Calliope]

I have to disagree, especially based upon prior PCs.

MULTNOMAH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE ACCEPTING MEDIA QUESTIONS REGARDING KYRON CASE
Posted: July 21st, 2010 10:24 AM

Sheriff Daniel Staton and Multnomah County Sheriff's Office understands that the community and media have many questions regarding the Kyron Horman investigation. We can ensure you that our primary goal is to complete a thorough investigation. As stated in prior press releases, there are many decision points which are discussed and filtered among investigators, deputy district attorneys, command staff and other experts. Our detectives and searchers are continuing to follow-up on many leads to include establishing and verifying information relating to Kyron's activities prior to his disappearance.

Multnomah County Sheriff's Office would like to provide the media the opportunity to submit questions they would like answered regarding Kyron Horman case. Please understand and remember this is an ongoing criminal investigation. There will be some questions that cannot be answered based on this fact.

Submit your questions to Kyron.case.questions@mcso.us. This email address will be accepting questions up to 2pm today, July 21, 2010.

A written statement will be released no later than Friday July 23, 2010 based on the questions submitted.

The Multnomah County Sheriff's Office would also like to announce that a press conference is scheduled for Tuesday July 27, 2010 at the Hanson Building located at 12240 NE Glisan Portland, Oregon. The exact time for this press conference will be announced by Friday July 23, 2010.
Present at this conference will be Chief Deputy Tim Moore and Lead Investigator of the Kyron case Sgt. Lee Gosson. The purpose of this press conference will be to provide an update of the case and respond to questions that were submitted regarding the case.

http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm

 

[froginTtown]

I found this news article about the RO.. it shows the entire RO...http://primewriter.com/news-1246-headlines/?tag=kaine-horman-restraining-order

 

[BeanE]

I have to disagree, especially based upon prior PCs.

MULTNOMAH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE ACCEPTING MEDIA QUESTIONS REGARDING KYRON CASE
Posted: July 21st, 2010 10:24 AM

Sheriff Daniel Staton and Multnomah County Sheriff's Office understands that the community and media have many questions regarding the Kyron Horman investigation. We can ensure you that our primary goal is to complete a thorough investigation. As stated in prior press releases, there are many decision points which are discussed and filtered among investigators, deputy district attorneys, command staff and other experts. Our detectives and searchers are continuing to follow-up on many leads to include establishing and verifying information relating to Kyron's activities prior to his disappearance.

Multnomah County Sheriff's Office would like to provide the media the opportunity to submit questions they would like answered regarding Kyron Horman case. Please understand and remember this is an ongoing criminal investigation. There will be some questions that cannot be answered based on this fact.

Submit your questions to Kyron.case.questions@mcso.us. This email address will be accepting questions up to 2pm today, July 21, 2010.

A written statement will be released no later than Friday July 23, 2010 based on the questions submitted.

The Multnomah County Sheriff's Office would also like to announce that a press conference is scheduled for Tuesday July 27, 2010 at the Hanson Building located at 12240 NE Glisan Portland, Oregon. The exact time for this press conference will be announced by Friday July 23, 2010.
Present at this conference will be Chief Deputy Tim Moore and Lead Investigator of the Kyron case Sgt. Lee Gosson. The purpose of this press conference will be to provide an update of the case and respond to questions that were submitted regarding the case.

http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm

They did exactly what they said they'd do in that purpose, whether we liked it or not.

 

[Patty G]

so since she wasn't a resident of Canada would she have to pay out of pocket. I'm not being condescending but.....never mind I don't know the severity of her kidney problems. I would've just assumed she would stay within the United States. I don't understand going to Canada for the treatment. OT....random thoughts.

Perhaps Desiree is Canadian has dual citizenship.