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UKGuy,

Burke's theory leaves a lot to be desired. Not least of which is how arbitrary he wants this to seem--just some 'random pedophile' they unwittingly enticed at a pageant. And yet all the staging is crafted to point to someone "in the know."
Makes no sense, I agree.

I believe he may have come up with this statement from the last parade JB was in:
DOI Page 98

"When 1996 rolled around, our friends Mike and Pam Archuleta drove a Christmas-red BMW convertible with JonBenet and some of her little friends riding on the top of the back seat and waving at people. Pam was director of the Boulder United Way, and the parade gave her a way to promote the organization. As always, almost as many people walked in the parade as watched it from the sidewalk. Nevertheless, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts from everywhere marched down the street. It was a neat small-town family activity....or so we thought.

Could one of the people watching the parade have been the killer, perhaps, a pedophile who was attracted to the little girl riding on the red convertible? Pam did report that a strange man approached the car during the parade. My instincts later told me it was a terrible idea to put your kids on display like that; but that thought never occurred to me at the time.

When I think back to those events, I know they were conceived in innocence and intended to be nothing but fun. Yet, now that I look back across the fabric of the 1996 season, I am disturbed by the bumps under the cloth. Strange and unexpected people appear. Events and details that Patsy and I had never noticed emerged in frightening ways that now terrify us.

A killer was standing somewhere in the shadows. And we had no idea."
 
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I'm sure, but it was established here at WS decades ago that under Colorado law at the time, no child under the age of 10 could be charged with a felony. So BR was never in any legal jeopardy.

Now whether the Rs KNEW that is another matter. But even if they didn't know on the night JBR died, they were certainly told when they "lawyered up" in the next day or so.
I will state this again, the R’s probably called several people during Christmas night or early the next morning to ask how to best proceed. Their phone records were never turned over for the month of December 1996. You can bet that wouldn’t be allowed for the average Joe!
 
Can I just have some clarification on something please? I'm not sure if I'm getting confused...

A lot has been made of that 911 call with a lot focusing on what they think they can hear Patsy say after she thought it had hung up..

If she did in fact cry something along the lines of ''oh jesus oh jesus, what did you do?!' ' etc (perhaps to Burke)....

How does that fit with the timeline? Because surely by the time of the 911 call they were fully aware of what had happened as they'd been dealing with it for hours?? Why would she still be frantically saying jesus what did you do??

I hope you can see what I'm trying to say here, I'm not very good at articulating myself. ;)
 
Not only that, but she supposedly put on the previous day's clothing without taking a shower. In DOI she says she wanted to take a shower, but her shower was broken. There were 3 showers on the second floor alone. She had a long day ahead of her, much of which she would be spending with her stepchildren who had a good relationship with their mother, John's ex-wife. I think Patsy would have been done up to the nines.
fr brown,
I believe perhaps PR stated she didn’t take a shower to help explain why she still had on the previous nights party cloths. She grabbed what was quick. Obviously considering the time she awoke and then headed downstairs, PR didn’t spend to much time on prepping.
 
Can I just have some clarification on something please? I'm not sure if I'm getting confused...

A lot has been made of that 911 call with a lot focusing on what they think they can hear Patsy say after she thought it had hung up..

If she did in fact cry something along the lines of ''oh jesus oh jesus, what did you do?!' ' etc (perhaps to Burke)....

How does that fit with the timeline? Because surely by the time of the 911 call they were fully aware of what had happened as they'd been dealing with it for hours?? Why would she still be frantically saying jesus what did you do??

I hope you can see what I'm trying to say here, I'm not very good at articulating myself. ;)

ReturnofSaturn,
Who knows why any of the R’s acted the way they did/said other then to cover their own actions.
CBS special: We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph
The 911 operator (Kimberly Archuleta) heard PR state “Okay we have called the police; now what”? Kimberly stated PR voice and composure changed immediately after she thought the phone hung up.
 
Can I just have some clarification on something please? I'm not sure if I'm getting confused...

A lot has been made of that 911 call with a lot focusing on what they think they can hear Patsy say after she thought it had hung up..

If she did in fact cry something along the lines of ''oh jesus oh jesus, what did you do?!' ' etc (perhaps to Burke)....

How does that fit with the timeline? Because surely by the time of the 911 call they were fully aware of what had happened as they'd been dealing with it for hours?? Why would she still be frantically saying jesus what did you do??

I hope you can see what I'm trying to say here, I'm not very good at articulating myself. ;)

ReturnofSaturn,
The CBS special said the conversation went like this:
911 Operator- Patsy? Patsy?

John- We're not speaking to you.

Patsy- What did you do?! Help me Jesus!

Burke- What did you find?
my emphasis

Patsy- Hurry, hurry, hurry (inaudible).

911- Patsy? Patsy? Patsy? Patsy? Patsy?

So the call cuts out now, later folks thought they heard Patsy repeating something ("Help me, Jesus") ?

The "Jesus" exclamation and the question "What did you find?" are separate phrases in time during the 911 call.

.
 
I will state this again, the R’s probably called several people during Christmas night or early the next morning to ask how to best proceed. Their phone records were never turned over for the month of December 1996. You can bet that wouldn’t be allowed for the average Joe!


Rain on my Parade,,
From memory JR spoke with the Governor of Colorado that morning, not bad for a homicide preamble, eh?

Also JR's Christmas gift, a cellphone, has never been found.

Of course they phoned for advice this why that same day folks had Ramsey private investigators knocking on their doors!

.
 
Rain on my Parade,,
From memory JR spoke with the Governor of Colorado that morning, not bad for a homicide preamble, eh?

Also JR's Christmas gift, a cellphone, has never been found.

Of course they phoned for advice this why that same day folks had Ramsey private investigators knocking on their doors!

.
UKGuy,
No wonder they were exonerated!
 
fr brown,
I believe perhaps PR stated she didn’t take a shower to help explain why she still had on the previous nights party cloths. She grabbed what was quick. Obviously considering the time she awoke and then headed downstairs, PR didn’t spend to much time on prepping.

Patsy's quite clear in Death of Innocence: " Slowly the normal routine for an early morning flight comes into focus. Take a shower, get dressed, get going. I swing out of bed and abruptly remember that my shower is still broken."

In her interview she said, iirc, that she spent 25 minutes putting her makeup on. Clearly she wasn't in a huge hurry; she had time to go down one flight of stairs to any one of three showers, especially since showering in the morning was her normal routine for an early morning flight.

It's not believable. Was her shower even broken? More likely she was explaining why her shower stall was dry. (No investigator was going to turn it on because that would interfere with evidence, but they probably checked to see if it was wet.) Her shower was dry because she was up all night murdering someone and covering it up.
 
fr brown,
I believe perhaps PR stated she didn’t take a shower to help explain why she still had on the previous nights party cloths. She grabbed what was quick. Obviously considering the time she awoke and then headed downstairs, PR didn’t spend to much time on prepping.

Patsy's quite clear in Death of Innocence: " Slowly the normal routine for an early morning flight comes into focus. Take a shower, get dressed, get going. I swing out of bed and abruptly remember that my shower is still broken."

In her interview she said, iirc, that she spent 25 minutes putting her makeup on. Clearly she wasn't in a huge hurry; she had time to go down one flight of stairs to any one of three showers, especially since it was her normal routine for an early morning flight.

It's not believable. Was her shower even broken? More likely she was explaining why her shower stall was dry. (No investigator would turn it on; that would interfere with evidence. Four years later no one in LE is going to be able to say whether it was working or not. But they probably checked to see if it was wet.) Her shower stall was dry because she was up all night murdering someone and covering it up. She didn't have time to change her clothes before John was up and about.

(Double post. Sorry.)
 
I believe he may have come up with this statement from the last parade JB was in:
DOI Page 98

"When 1996 rolled around, our friends Mike and Pam Archuleta drove a Christmas-red BMW convertible with JonBenet and some of her little friends riding on the top of the back seat and waving at people. Pam was director of the Boulder United Way, and the parade gave her a way to promote the organization. As always, almost as many people walked in the parade as watched it from the sidewalk. Nevertheless, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts from everywhere marched down the street. It was a neat small-town family activity....or so we thought.

Could one of the people watching the parade have been the killer, perhaps, a pedophile who was attracted to the little girl riding on the red convertible? Pam did report that a strange man approached the car during the parade. My instincts later told me it was a terrible idea to put your kids on display like that; but that thought never occurred to me at the time.

When I think back to those events, I know they were conceived in innocence and intended to be nothing but fun. Yet, now that I look back across the fabric of the 1996 season, I am disturbed by the bumps under the cloth. Strange and unexpected people appear. Events and details that Patsy and I had never noticed emerged in frightening ways that now terrify us.

A killer was standing somewhere in the shadows. And we had no idea."

Rain on my Parade,
Yes he might have, must also mean Burke was assiduously reading his parents books?

I reckon the takeaway regarding Burke's pedophile remarks is that now an adult he has to have a theory of sorts that explains away JonBenet's death.

As a child and someone who has been Missing In Action for years, shades of the "President's Brain" remember that, he has never needed to publicly offer a rationale regarding JonBenet's death.

Personally it looks like JR has been giving him lessons, definitely not a Dr. Phil idiom.

.
 
i notice the couple that drove "JBR and friends" float in the parade have same last name as the dispatcher... surely a coincidence.

some of the stuff PR was yelling i think can be considered rhetorical........ but not sure which way that pushes things? probably depends on what was said in each case.

i think the biggest thing about the aborted hangup is that PR's demeanor is said to change....... and you'd think she'd mention "they said not to call the police so ....."

just finished ST book for 3rd time and am on "small town" book for 2nd time. tons and tons of evidence but to me it seems pretty obvious who wrote the ransom note.

they may have hired a lawyer for BR so that he didn't talk about anything (whether himself or one of his parents)
 
Please point out where I said "Thomas said that partial or smudged prints were found".

There was a Ask Me Anything that was held a few years ago by either Thomas or Beckner and one of them said that no usable prints were found on the flashlight.

You said: "It isn't that there were no prints found on the flashlight. It's that no usable prints were found." Are there other types of non-usable fingerprints besides partial or smudged?

Thomas strongly suggested in JonBenet that the flashlight had been wiped inside and out. Since I think the flashlight was probably the murder weapon, it would make sense that the outside had been wiped. An intruder wouldn't wipe the batteries, though. If fingerprints of some type had actually been found somewhere on the flashlight or its batteries, then I might have to revise my thinking. Hence my question.
 
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Patsy's quite clear in Death of Innocence: " Slowly the normal routine for an early morning flight comes into focus. Take a shower, get dressed, get going. I swing out of bed and abruptly remember that my shower is still broken."

In her interview she said, iirc, that she spent 25 minutes putting her makeup on. Clearly she wasn't in a huge hurry; she had time to go down one flight of stairs to any one of three showers, especially since it was her normal routine for an early morning flight.

It's not believable. Was her shower even broken? More likely she was explaining why her shower stall was dry. (No investigator would turn it on; that would interfere with evidence. Four years later no one in LE is going to be able to say whether it was working or not. But they probably checked to see if it was wet.) Her shower stall was dry because she was up all night murdering someone and covering it up. She didn't have time to change her clothes before John was up and about.

I see this as Patsy over-explaining. She doesn't think it's believable that she would omit to shower so she feels that she has to make it convincing with the broken shower explanation, knowing that nobody's going to be able to contradict her many years later. Maybe she throws the broken shower in for the benefit of her family, who desperately want to believe she's innocent. In her interview she includes showering every morning as part of her routine. (Oops.)

That house actually has 7 showers (counting the one in the basement) so her strategy backfires a bit.
 
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You said: "It isn't that there were no prints found on the flashlight. It's that no usable prints were found." Are there other types of non-usable fingerprints besides partial or smudged?

Thomas strongly suggested in JonBenet that the flashlight had been wiped inside and out. Since I think the flashlight was probably the murder weapon, it would make sense that the outside had been wiped. An intruder wouldn't wipe the batteries, though. If fingerprints of some type had actually been found somewhere on the flashlight or its batteries, then I might have to revise my thinking. Hence my question.

fr brown,
Some thoughts on the flashlight:

I reckon the flashlight is the prime candidate for causing JonBenet's head injury.

This cannot rule JonBenet falling onto something hard and whacking her head, say as the result of an unwanted act?

Now if JonBenet has an accident then dialling 911 should not be an issue, yet this never occurred.

Head trauma as a precursor to sexual assault is possible but this was not a stranger attack so it looks unlikely.

Meaning the sexual assault came first followed either by the head trauma or asphyxiation?

Asphyxiation could follow the sexual assault as a means of restraint with the head trauma a failed attempt at staging, i.e. cause of death not visible?

Coroner Meyer's autopsy cites the cause of death as: Asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

i.e. the head injury plays a part but the major deciding factor is the strangulation.

What role, in your opinion , does the head trauma play in the death of JonBenet?

IMO cleaning the flashlight was a mistake since we know it belonged to the Ramsey's it should have their fingerprints on the surface.

The only reason to wipe the batteries is if you know you touched them, i.e. when changing them say during a staging session?

If the flashlight is the Murder Weapon would the killer tell the other two residents that this is the case?

Why would the killer need a flashlight say distinct from a hammer? There were ceiling and bedside lighting in all the bedrooms?

Yet JonBenet's bedroom ceiling light was not functioning, only her bedside lamp (new) was working.

So a motive for carrying a flashlight might be to navigate JonBenet's bedroom?


Dr Phil Interview with Burke Ramsey, episode 2, excerpt
Dr Phil: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?

Burke: Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kinda in bed, and wanting to get this thing out.

Dr Phil: Did you use the flashlight, so you wouldn't be seen?

Burke: I don't remember. I just remember being downstairs, I remember this toy.

Dr Phil: Did you hit your sister over the head with a baseball bat or a flashlight?

Burke:Absolutely not.

Patsy on the flashlight:
1998 Boulder Police Department Patsy Ramsey Interview Excerpt
7 cameras out and other things.

8 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm not a very good

9 housekeeper.

10 TRIP DeMUTH: There was a video camera, I

11 think, on that kitchen island there or something

12 like that. I may not have that exactly.

13 PATSY RAMSEY: I vaguely remember a video

14 camera being out because I was probably turning

15 it up to take pictures Christmas morning but

16 then we never ended up taking any.

17 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes). Did you guys

18 use this flashlight much?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't, no.

20 TRIP DeMUTH: Who did?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: John used it.

22 TRIP DeMUTH: What did he use it for?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, looking in the

24 garage and the car or something like that.

25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Had you ever seen it

0518

1 on the kitchen counter before?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall.

3 TRIP DeMUTH: Would it have struck you as

4 unusual, or would that not be outside the realm

5 of possibilities, given the habits of the

6 family?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems like it would have

8 been unusual to have made it all the way into

9 the kitchen, because usually if somebody was

10 using the flashlight, they were -- John was

11 looking at something in the garage or under the

12 car or something like that.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.

14 PATSY RAMSEY: But he might, you know, I'm

15 sure you must have asked him if he...

16 TOM HANEY: And maybe I missed it, do you

17 know when you last saw it in the drawer?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I'm not for sure.

19 TOM HANEY: Do you remember ever putting

20 batteries in it or buying batteries for it,

21 somebody says woop, the flashlight is low, get

22 us some --

23 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

24 TOM HANEY: -- C, D cells?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it just kind of wasn't

0519

1 my, my thing, you know.

2 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about, do you recall

3 of using that during say a power outage or to

4 check on the kids at night, anything along those

5 lines?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't remember that.

7 TOM HANEY: There are two more photos on

8 the back sides of the same flashlight. Next we

9 have photos that are numbered 113.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

In the above cases John is the main user of the flashlight. He definitely wants it out there that he handled the flashlight the same night JonBenet was killed.

Yet no Ramsey, including Burke has offered a reason as to how the flashlight made its way back downstairs to the kitchen?

.
 
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<snip>The only reason to wipe the batteries is if you know you touched them, i.e. when changing them say during a staging session?

I suppose they contacted the Maglite company to find out whether or not the batteries found in the flashlight had been factory installed (i.e. not touched by human fingers).

If the flashlight is the Murder Weapon would the killer tell the other two residents that this is the case?

Why would the killer need a flashlight say distinct from a hammer? There were ceiling and bedside lighting in all the bedrooms?

Yet JonBenet's bedroom ceiling light was not functioning, only her bedside lamp (new) was working.

So a motive for carrying a flashlight might be to navigate JonBenet's bedroom?


Dr Phil Interview with Burke Ramsey, episode 2, excerpt




Patsy on the flashlight:
1998 Boulder Police Department Patsy Ramsey Interview Excerpt


In the above cases John is the main user of the flashlight. He definitely wants it out there that he handled the flashlight the same night JonBenet was killed.

Yet no Ramsey, including Burke has offered a reason as to how the flashlight made its way back downstairs to the kitchen?

.

A flashlight is phallic-shaped. Just saying.
 
I suppose they contacted the Maglite company to find out whether or not the batteries found in the flashlight had been factory installed (i.e. not touched by human fingers).



A flashlight is phallic-shaped. Just saying.

icedtea4me,
Yes, they probably checked if the batteries were a factory install. We can presume the negative as the investigators were all over Patsy asking flashlight questions.

For years the Ramsey's said the flashlight was not theirs, then up pops Dr. Phil, courtesy of John, to say John left the flashlight in Burke's bedroom?

I've never understood why John needed a flashlight to put Burke to bed, the house had plenty ceiling lights.

I reckon John is offering a narrative to explain away the flashlight being in use that night?

My money is on Burke using it beneath the covers, that way the parents do not notice anything happening in JonBenet's bedroom?

There is the possibility that the flashlight was always intended as fake staging, but it bombed as it became obvious the logistics for an intruder dont add up.

So John might be re purposing it to be included in putting Burke to bed?

Millionaire needs flashlight to put son to bed on Christmas Night.
That's a National Inquirer headline.


A phallic-shaped flashlight is verging on the Freudian, until I learn otherwise I'll assume its initial use was utilitarian.

.
 
Both Ramseys acknowledged when asked in '98 that the flashlight was likely the one John Andrew gave John one Christmas. Patsy said that it was exclusively used by John.

"LOU SMIT: What kind of flashlight do you have?

JOHN RAMSEY: Well we've got several, I guess. One that, I believe, came up as an item was this MAG light flashlight. If it's the one I think it is, my son gave me that for a Christmas present a year or two ago. And that was probably in the bar. The bar drawer was typically where it was kept.

LOU SMIT: You don't remember getting that?

JOHN RAMSEY: No. I know I did not get it [out--fr brown].

LOU SMIT: Anyone else get it?

JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall. I don't even know it worked. Typically our flashlights didn't work because we needed new batteries (INAUDIBLE). We might have a few blown flashlights around."

AND

"TOM HANEY: Okay. The next group of photos and these are not numbered --

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

TOM HANEY: -- but they show flashlight.

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

TOM HANEY: A black metal string light type --

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you recognize that?

PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or something.

TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall when it was he gave it to him or...

PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly, unh-unh (no).
......
TRIP DeMUTH: ....Did you guys use this flashlight much?

PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't, no.

TRIP DeMUTH: Who did?

PATSY RAMSEY: John used it.

TRIP DeMUTH: What did he use it for?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, looking in the garage and the car or something like that.

TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Had you ever seen it on the kitchen counter before?

PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall.
....
PATSY RAMSEY: It seems like it would have been unusual to have made it all the way into the kitchen, because usually if somebody was using the flashlight, they were -- John was looking at something in the garage or under the car or something like that."
 
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Both Ramseys acknowledged when asked in '98 that the flashlight was likely the one John Andrew gave John one Christmas. Patsy said that it was exclusively used by John.

"LOU SMIT: What kind of flashlight do you have?

JOHN RAMSEY: Well we've got several, I guess. One that, I believe, came up as an item was this MAG light flashlight. If it's the one I think it is, my son gave me that for a Christmas present a year or two ago. And that was probably in the bar. The bar drawer was typically where it was kept.

LOU SMIT: You don't remember getting that?

JOHN RAMSEY: No. I know I did not get it [out--fr brown].

LOU SMIT: Anyone else get it?

JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall. I don't even know it worked. Typically our flashlights didn't work because we needed new batteries (INAUDIBLE). We might have a few blown flashlights around."

AND

"TOM HANEY: Okay. The next group of photos and these are not numbered --

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

TOM HANEY: -- but they show flashlight.

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

TOM HANEY: A black metal string light type --

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you recognize that?

PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or something.

TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall when it was he gave it to him or...

PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly, unh-unh (no).
......
TRIP DeMUTH: ....Did you guys use this flashlight much?

PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't, no.

TRIP DeMUTH: Who did?

PATSY RAMSEY: John used it.

TRIP DeMUTH: What did he use it for?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, looking in the garage and the car or something like that.

TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Had you ever seen it on the kitchen counter before?

PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall.
....
PATSY RAMSEY: It seems like it would have been unusual to have made it all the way into the kitchen, because usually if somebody was using the flashlight, they were -- John was looking at something in the garage or under the car or something like that."

Later in the same interview when John's shown a flashlight that's covered in dust and out of context with no way to judge its size, he says that it looks different from his because it's grey and dirty and he can't tell how big it is. That seems like a natural response to me: Maglites come in different sizes and the cops haven't told him yet it's the same flashlight, only covered in fingerprint powder. John doesn't disavow it, though. He just has reservations.

In JonBenet, Thomas says that John is saying the flashlight doesn't belong to his family. Reading the transcript, that's just not accurate. This shows why we should always prefer a primary source--or as close to primary as we can get.
 
Later in the same interview when John's shown a flashlight that's covered in dust and out of context with no way to judge its size, he says that it looks different from his because it's grey and dirty and he can't tell how big it is. That seems like a natural response to me: Maglites come in different sizes and the cops haven't told him yet it's the same flashlight, only covered in fingerprint powder. John doesn't disavow it, though. He just has reservations.

In JonBenet, Thomas says that John is saying the flashlight doesn't belong to his family. Reading the transcript, that's just not accurate. This shows why we should always prefer a primary source--or as close to primary as we can get.


fr brown,
I agree, some sources are biased for one reason or another.


The thing about the flashlight is that John has brought it into play. From memory, John never mentioned the flashlight in previous accounts about putting Burke to bed?

How did it arrive back downstairs, also John must have agreed to Dr. Phil's question to Burke: Did you whack JonBenet on the head with the flashlight?

In a sense Dr. Phil's question and answer session to Burke almost parody's the then upcoming CBS Special, which John had viewed in advance.

It could be the flashlight's role is peripheral, e.g. just used to navigate the basement staging?

.
 
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