MA - Conrad Roy, 18, urged by friend, commits suicide, Fairhaven, 13 July 2014

[Miss Muffet]

Depression, when treated properly, isn't a terminal illness. Conrad needed to support and acceptence to seek medical help to control his depression with proper med's.

I just wish it was someone who really understood that was there to support Conrad, not someone who had so little knowledge she convinced him there was no other answer.

According to his father, he was being treated with cognitive behavioral therapy and medication. I responded previously that I suspect he wasn't receiving the proper meds. He did have the support of his family. His parents were well aware of his problems (he had a previous suicide attempt) and ensured he was in treatment. Regardless, she didn't help matters and effectively pushed him over the edge.

 

[Gypsy Road]

Looks like her Twitter and FB have been closed. I can't find either one of them. When I click on the Twitter link - it says "Sorry! Page Doesn't Exist".

 

[Boytwnmom]

it's generally in a situation like starting a fire and failing to report it or in cases where there is a special duty like parent child, or in the example below, foster parent.

Corrine Stephen, a 25-year-old Massachusetts foster mother, was found guilty of causing the death of four-year-old Dontel Jeffers because she did not get him medical help immediately after he was severely beaten. Stephen had been charged with second-degree murder, but yesterday was convicted of involuntary manslaughter by the Suffolk County Superior Court jury.

http://www.bostoncriminallawyerblog.com/2007/11/massachusetts_foster_mother_fo_1.html

From what I've read, this appears to be a charge of Involuntary Manslaughter, which since there is no battery, is likely a "Welansky" manslaughter charge, meaning wanton and reckless behavior. MA does not have a manslaughter statute. The charge/crime comes from common/case law. Wanton and reckless conduct is distinct from negligence or gross negligence for which, in the common law of Massachusetts, there is no criminal liability.

"Welansky manslaughter," is named after a 1944 case where the owner of a nightclub was convicted of involuntary manslaughter when a fire in his club caused the death of over 400 patrons. That case established that wanton or reckless conduct includes both affirmative acts and failures to act (where a duty to act exists). Such conduct must evidence a disregard for the probable harmful consequences to another and must have a high likelihood that substantial harm will result to another. The law requires that the defendant have knowledge of the circumstances and the intent to do the act that caused the death, and also requires that the circumstances presented a danger of serious harm such that a reasonable person would have recognized the nature and degree of danger.

These are, I believe, the current Jury Instructions on this charge, which sets out the requirements:

To prove that the defendant is guilty of involuntary manslaughter because of wanton and reckless conduct, the Commonwealth must prove the following elements beyond a
reasonable doubt: 1. The defendant caused the victim's death; 2. The defendant intended the conduct that caused the victim's death 3.The defendant's conduct was wanton and reckless.

I will now discuss each element in more detail. The first element is that the defendant caused the death of [victim's name].A defendant's act is the cause of [the victim's] death where the act, in a natural and continuous sequence, results in death, and without which death would not have occurred. The second element is that the defendant intended the conduct that caused the death.The Commonwealth is not required to prove that the defendant intended to cause the death. The third element is that the defendant's conduct was wanton and reckless. Wanton and reckless conduct is conduct that creates a high degree of likelihood that substantial harm will result to another. It is conduct involving a grave risk of harm to another that a person undertakes with indifference to or disregard of the consequences of such conduct. Whether conduct is wanton and reckless depends either on what the defendant knew or how a reasonable person would have acted knowing what the defendant knew. If the defendant realized the grave risk created by his conduct, his subsequent act amounts to wanton and reckless conduct whether or not a reasonable person would have realized the risk of grave danger. Even if the defendant himself did not realize the grave risk of harm to another, the act would constitute wanton and reckless conduct if a reasonable person, knowing what the defendant knew, would have realized the act posed a risk of grave danger to another. It is not enough for the Commonwealth to prove the defendant acted negligently, that is, in a manner that a reasonably careful person would not have acted.Commonwealth must prove that the defendant's actions went beyond negligence and amounted to wanton and reckless conduct as I have defined that term

http://www.mass.gov/courts/docs/sjc/docs/model-jury-instructions-homicide.pdf

I don't know whether there has ever been a similar case in MA, but none of the articles mention one and I think this may be a first. I can't recall too many high profile cases. The last one was probably the 2011 gun show case which resulted in a Not Guilty verdict. It involved the young boy who shot himself in the head with an UZI at a gun show. The former police chief who helped organize the show was found Not Guilty on the Involuntary Manslaughter charge.

This case did bring to my mind, the Phoebe Prince case. There, her tormentors were initially charged with bullying, violation of civil rights and some other things but they did not go as far as Involuntary Manslaughter, likely because the suicide was not closely enough or causally linked to the conduct. The current case is seemingly much more egregious and directly focused on the suicidal acts with actual direction being given to a person the perpetrator knew was susceptible. I think her actions were so horrendous to the investigators they felt she had to be charged. A lot will probably depend on the exact nature of the messages and her knowledge of the victim. If this is a case of first impression it is probably another reason she was charged as a juvenile.

I think I found relevant law.

Massachusetts is one of ten states with a legal duty to rescue law.

http://www.thelaw.com/guide/injury/the-legal-duty-to-rescue-or-help-another-person/

It covers very limited scenarios, one of which I think applies in this case:



And that very well might be how they can make manslaughter stick.

I'd like to see the official charges on her. It can't be just manslaughter. There has to be other charges.

Since she was 17 at the time, it can be tried in juvenile or adult court.

I think she's inappropriately being tried as a juvenile. She was old enough to know better.

 

[Cubby]

Damn. I might need to get cable just for this. I joke. I love my cable independence.

lol. I thought something similiar..... As much as I don't care for Nancy Grace, I will read the transcripts from her show if she covers this case.

 

[Cubby]

I wonder if she confessed to her parents, and they came up with the idea of her doing a fundraiser for suicide prevention to protect her from any possible legal action that might ensue. The fundraiser was two months after his suicide. I can't imagine a teenager who is supposedly traumatized by the suicide of a boyfriend having the motivation and wherewithal to come up with the idea of a fundraiser and organize it within two months.

That's just it. MC is not traumatized and was never traumatized by Conrads actions. If she is traumatized it's only for herself.

I'd bet if MC's friends took a look at the entire picture and asked themselves if MC ever did anything which didn't conclude with her being in the spotlight/ gaining recognition, they'd get a better glimpse at who she really is.

 

[Cubby]

According to his father, he was being treated with cognitive behavioral therapy and medication. I responded previously that I suspect he wasn't receiving the proper meds. He did have the support of his family. His parents were well aware of his problems (he had a previous suicide attempt) and ensured he was in treatment. Regardless, she didn't help matters and effectively pushed him over the edge.

I had posted before I read your previous post. I don't blame his parents - in any way. When I was a teen, I hid my depression well. That aside, teens are so apt to wanting the acceptance of their peers, I think what their friends do and say affect mental illness greatly. Acceptance, encouragement and support from his friends had a great influence on him. We are teaching kids on how to stop bullying. Maybe we need to spend more time on educating them regarding helping a friend suffering with a form of mental illness with the proper type of encouragement for them to seek help, not to take their life.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I wonder if she confessed to her parents, and they came up with the idea of her doing a fundraiser for suicide prevention to protect her from any possible legal action that might ensue. The fundraiser was two months after his suicide. I can't imagine a teenager who is supposedly traumatized by the suicide of a boyfriend having the motivation and wherewithal to come up with the idea of a fundraiser and organize it within two months.

I think LE contacted her parents and told them what they found out. This probably happened around the first week. They may have told them that those text do not look good and that the DA is considering charges. So imo; the family told her that what she did was wrong and need to do something to show she is not the beast that her texts show her to be. Idk.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

In a text sent to a friend two months after his death, Carter said Roy had gotten out of the truck because he was scared, but she told him to get back in.“I knew he would do it all over again the next day, and I couldn’t have him live the way he was living anymore,” she wrote. “I couldn’t do it. I wouldn’t let him.”
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...end-suicide/WM5yHKA5IpobG2WXEWHLFM/story.html

I had considered a pact until I read the above statement of MC's. This tells me she chose the option and saw no other option for him. Depression, when treated properly, isn't a terminal illness. Conrad needed support and acceptence to seek medical help to control his depression with proper med's. Not encouragement the only answer was suicide.

I suffer from depression and have suffered from depression as long as I can remember into my early childhood. I'm finally on the right combination of med's and feel happy and normal. I just wish it was someone who really understood that was there to support Conrad, not someone who had so little knowledge she convinced him there was no other answer.

Sleep peacefully Conrad.

I understand. I am sorry you and others have to deal with depression.

However, my point wasn't if she was right or wrong. It was, "Did she believe she was doing the right thing out of love for him at the time and was it what he wanted so he made it known to her?". Evidently, the answer is yes to both. Was it a suicide pact then? She wasn't going to kill herself, but did she enter into an agreement of sorts to help him with his own? (And did she try by texting his sister to get him some help before he could finish it?)

The very comment about how he lived daily with gut wrenching unhappiness and (I am guessing) threats daily of suicide tells me she was overwhelmed by his constant state. She probably knew he had tried meds, had family support, and therapy...none of which seemed to help the poor boy. Seems he was in pain and begging to stop it. She is young and not mature enough to take in the big picture. She was wrong, but at the time I am not certain there was any malice in her mind.

 

[Hoosgirl]

it's generally in a situation like starting a fire and failing to report it or in cases where there is a special duty like parent child, or in the example below, foster parent.

http://www.bostoncriminallawyerblog.com/2007/11/massachusetts_foster_mother_fo_1.html

From what I've read, this appears to be a charge of Involuntary Manslaughter, which since there is no battery, is likely a "Welansky" manslaughter charge, meaning wanton and reckless behavior. MA does not have a manslaughter statute. The charge/crime comes from common/case law. Wanton and reckless conduct is distinct from negligence or gross negligence for which, in the common law of Massachusetts, there is no criminal liability.

"Welansky manslaughter," is named after a 1944 case where the owner of a nightclub was convicted of involuntary manslaughter when a fire in his club caused the death of over 400 patrons. That case established that wanton or reckless conduct includes both affirmative acts and failures to act (where a duty to act exists). Such conduct must evidence a disregard for the probable harmful consequences to another and must have a high likelihood that substantial harm will result to another. The law requires that the defendant have knowledge of the circumstances and the intent to do the act that caused the death, and also requires that the circumstances presented a danger of serious harm such that a reasonable person would have recognized the nature and degree of danger.

These are, I believe, the current Jury Instructions on this charge, which sets out the requirements:

http://www.mass.gov/courts/docs/sjc/docs/model-jury-instructions-homicide.pdf

I don't know whether there has ever been a similar case in MA, but none of the articles mention one and I think this may be a first. I can't recall too many high profile cases. The last one was probably the 2011 gun show case which resulted in a Not Guilty verdict. It involved the young boy who shot himself in the head with an UZI at a gun show. The former police chief who helped organize the show was found Not Guilty on the Involuntary Manslaughter charge.

This case did bring to my mind, the Phoebe Prince case. There, her tormentors were initially charged with bullying, violation of civil rights and some other things but they did not go as far as Involuntary Manslaughter, likely because the suicide was not closely enough or causally linked to the conduct. The current case is seemingly much more egregious and directly focused on the suicidal acts with actual direction being given to a person the perpetrator knew was susceptible. I think her actions were so horrendous to the investigators they felt she had to be charged. A lot will probably depend on the exact nature of the messages and her knowledge of the victim. If this is a case of first impression it is probably another reason she was charged as a juvenile.

Thank you! I was hoping a legal mind would weigh in. I was trying to find the manslaughter law ... no wonder I was having a hard time.

The Fairhaven article is the only one I've found, I think, that states she was indicted for "manslaughter involving neglect of legal duty". What does that mean?

 

[radiator]

There are situations, such as this, which make me feel that vigilante justice isn't always bad. Although I wouldn't encourage anyone to do anything to this evil person, I wouldn't shed a tear if someone did.

It's threads like this that make it clear to me how wrong vigilante justice is, this young woman has been tried and convicted here based on information from a handful of newspaper articles. MOO

 

[Schuby]

I saw this article a few days ago and, I know this will be unpopular, but I disagree with the decision to charge her criminally. Though I agree with other posters that we should reserve judgement until we know more about the relationship between the two (as today's monster may be tomorrow's mouse), I don't think it really matters. Suicide is more complex than a 500 word write up by some hack journalist.

Unfortunately I have lost someone to suicide. I witnessed the endless speculation of outsiders about who was to blame, what was to blame, in which moment was it triggered. All of it reductive and facile and infested with our selfish need to make rational that which is not. It is safer to craft a villain than to confront this young man's pain and our own horror at how he chose to deal with it.

ETA: I wonder how many of us would have been equipped, at 18, to respond constructively to a suicidal person. There are psychiatrists that have years and years of education, training and experience and still can't -trust me, I've seen their work. I'm not comfortable with interpreting what may very well have been an adolescent's attempt to be flip in the face of unease as criminal malice.

 

[Lamima]

Munchausen-esque.

Edit: I see that this has been brought up already...oops.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I saw this article a few days ago and, I know this will be unpopular, but I disagree with the decision to charge her criminally. Though I agree with other posters that we should reserve judgement until we know more about the relationship between the two (as today's monster may be tomorrow's mouse), I don't think it really matters. Suicide is more complex than a 500 word write up by some hack journalist.

Unfortunately I have lost someone to suicide. I witnessed the endless speculation of outsiders about who was to blame, what was to blame, in which moment was it triggered. All of it reductive and facile and infested with our selfish need to make rational that which is not. It is safer to craft a villain than to confront this young man's pain and our own horror at how he chose to deal with it.

ETA: I wonder how many of us would have been equipped, at 18, to respond constructively to a suicidal person. There are psychiatrists that have years and years of education, training and experience and still can't -trust me, I've seen their work. I'm not comfortable with interpreting what may very well have been an adolescent's attempt to be flip in the face of unease as criminal malice.

I will wait to see what she did with that $2300 she fundraised in his honor before voting for the max. Btw: With the text we have seen so far makes me believe that her actions should not go unpunished. They lived a hour away from each other; so its not like she had to deal with him on a consistent basis. This shows me she preyed on him. Besides if they let her go then it will send the wrong message to kids about encouraging and antagonizing a friend to commit suicide. Jmo.

 

[michmi]

I saw this article a few days ago and, I know this will be unpopular, but I disagree with the decision to charge her criminally. Though I agree with other posters that we should reserve judgement until we know more about the relationship between the two (as today's monster may be tomorrow's mouse), I don't think it really matters. Suicide is more complex than a 500 word write up by some hack journalist.

Unfortunately I have lost someone to suicide. I witnessed the endless speculation of outsiders about who was to blame, what was to blame, in which moment was it triggered. All of it reductive and facile and infested with our selfish need to make rational that which is not. It is safer to craft a villain than to confront this young man's pain and our own horror at how he chose to deal with it.

ETA: I wonder how many of us would have been equipped, at 18, to respond constructively to a suicidal person. There are psychiatrists that have years and years of education, training and experience and still can't -trust me, I've seen their work. I'm not comfortable with interpreting what may very well have been an adolescent's attempt to be flip in the face of unease as criminal malice.

Eighteen years old is plenty old enough to recognize a life-threatening situation and know that if you can't respond in a helpful way, YOU GET OTHERS TO HELP, like finding out where he is and calling 911, calling your parents to ask for help.

This is a sick, sick person with no moral compass at all.

 

[Schuby]

I will wait to see what she did with that $2300 she fundraised in his honor before voting for the max. Btw: With the text we have seen so far makes me believe that her actions should not go unpunished. They lived a hour away from each other; so its not like she had to deal with him on a consistent basis. This shows me she preyed on him. Besides if they let her go then it will send the wrong message to kids about encouraging and antagonizing a friend to commit suicide. Jmo.

I am not arguing that this girl is a great person or even a decent person, she sounds pretty lame based on the reporting so far. What I'm saying is that being a jerk is not a crime and that if you or the police or the courts think one person being mean to another person satisfactorily explains suicide, you, and the police, and the courts are wrong. It would be wonderful if mental illness could be treated by getting better friends but unfortunately the effort involved in getting a sick person help is far more Herculean.

 

[Schuby]

Eighteen years old is plenty old enough to recognize a life-threatening situation and know that if you can't respond in a helpful way, YOU GET OTHERS TO HELP, like finding out where he is and calling 911, calling your parents to ask for help.

This is a sick, sick person with no moral compass at all.

She may be a sick person, I have no idea, but saying she is a sick is entirely different than saying she is to blame for his death.

 

[LvsAMystry]

It would be wonderful if mental illness could be treated by getting better friends but unfortunately the effort involved in getting a sick person help is far more Herculean.

That's just it, it didn't have to be Herculean in that moment, he reached out in doubt, he'd stopped. I have to think if he really wanted to die that day, he never would have gotten out of the vehicle saying he wasn't sure, his intent would never have swayed. I understand that doesn't mean he would suddenly have been okay or wouldn't have gone on to another attempt that ended his life, but in that very moment he was unsure and she told him to go ahead. People do overcome suicidal intent, it does happen, and what if just maybe she hadn't said get back in so he didn't? A small chance to overcome it is better than no chance.

 

[Schuby]

That's just it, it didn't have to be Herculean in that moment, he reached out in doubt, he'd stopped. I have to think if he really wanted to die that day, he never would have gotten out of the vehicle saying he wasn't sure, his intent would never have swayed. I understand that doesn't mean he would suddenly have been okay or wouldn't have gone on to another attempt that ended his life, but in that very moment he was unsure and she told him to go ahead. People do overcome suicidal intent, it does happen, and what if just maybe she hadn't said get back in so he didn't? A small chance to overcome it is better than no chance.

Yes, of course that is possible. It's also possible that she could have begged him not to, called his parents, called the police, and rushed over with a siren blaring on the top of her car and the outcome would be the same. I am more than willing to condemn her bad character or judgement, but I will not ascribe to her the legal responsibility for his death, it's simply more complex than that.

 

[Cubby]

I understand. I am sorry you and others have to deal with depression.

However, my point wasn't if she was right or wrong. It was, "Did she believe she was doing the right thing out of love for him at the time and was it what he wanted so he made it known to her?". Evidently, the answer is yes to both. Was it a suicide pact then? She wasn't going to kill herself, but did she enter into an agreement of sorts to help him with his own? (And did she try by texting his sister to get him some help before he could finish it?)

The very comment about how he lived daily with gut wrenching unhappiness and (I am guessing) threats daily of suicide tells me she was overwhelmed by his constant state. She probably knew he had tried meds, had family support, and therapy...none of which seemed to help the poor boy. Seems he was in pain and begging to stop it. She is young and not mature enough to take in the big picture. She was wrong, but at the time I am not certain there was any malice in her mind.

Thank you. I see it a little differently. She could have been overwhelmed, but she did the wrong thing by not seeking the advice or help of a trusted adult. With all due respect, who gave her the right to decide how he should live, whether or not he should live? She isn't a little kid. She was a few months shy of being a legal adult. She decided she knew better than the adults, the doctors/psychiatrists, specialists, counselors. She played god and she did a lot of damage to a great many people. Two families are now devastated. Their lives forever changed based on the decision MC made the day she encouraged the suicide, even after he told her he was having second thoughts. To me, her own words state she wasn't going to let him change his mind about going through with it.

I have a hard time believing an honor role student a few months shy of 18 is incapable of recognizing when something is a little more than what they can handle and choose to push someone into making an irreversable choice such as suicide rather than seeking the advice or bringing the problem to an adult. She apparently didn't say to him, this is too much for me. She encouraged him to kill himself. That was the shortest, simplest, easiest way for her to rid herself of the burden of his depression.

I can't begin to describe the betrayal the Roy family must be feeling. Even if it MC's behavior isn't a crime, her behavior is morally unconscionable. While looking at her FB and instagram accounts before they were closed, I could see there was nothing behind those eyes. She's as hollow as Casey Anthony. She just had a better way of disguising it until now. The wolf comes in sheeps clothing kind of thing........

 

[Schuby]

Eighteen years old is plenty old enough to recognize a life-threatening situation and know that if you can't respond in a helpful way, YOU GET OTHERS TO HELP, like finding out where he is and calling 911, calling your parents to ask for help.

This is a sick, sick person with no moral compass at all.

Also, I must point out that reality does not bear out your belief that anyone confronted with another person's suicidal thoughts or ideation will certainly and immediately know how to intervene. Sadly, I have heard too many people say, "I just didn't take him seriously" to believe that.