MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #2

[sorrell skye]

The appeal is about supplying seatbelts. In the Baltimore vans, it is department policy and seatbelt are supplied. In point, unsecured seatbelts would mean that the argument of the appeals concern stated was about the use of seatbelts as a weapon could occur. A handcuffed prisoner secured with a seatbelt would not be able to use it as a weapon where an unsecured seatbelt could be grabbed by a handcuffed person and be used to strangle or hit another person in that section of the van.

Interesting appeal.

BBM

It definitely is interesting. It's interesting that the prevailing so-called logic says that a prisoner may be able to use the seatbelt as a weapon, so for safety's sake, don't secure the prisoner in a seatbelt.

My question is this: How exactly would a handcuffed prisoner use a seatbelt as a weapon if he/she is handcuffed? I think prisoners are typically handcuffed behind their backs, so using a seatbelt as a weapon doesn't seem plausible, IMO.

 

[ShadyLady]

it was only when, reportedly, he was acting "irate" that he was removed and had his feet shackled.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/arrest-to-death-what-happened-to-freddie-gray/

Now I have no idea whether the series of events with FG was reasonable or normal. I have zero experience with being arrested so no clue on that front. And there was a very selective presentation of "facts" by the prosecutor and we haven't heard from ANY of the several officers involved.

If your feet are shackled could you still use them to stabilize yourself while sitting? I'm just thinking of, sorry, Jodi Arias and her walk across the courtroom for JSS. She was shackled. But maybe she was shackled differently. Again, I just don't know enough to say whether the officers actions were reasonable and/or whether FG's resistance activities caused in whole or part his injuries. Was he placed on the floor intentionally so he couldn't fall? Did he fall and end up on the floor? What is usually done with a cuffed and shackled prisoner when placed in that type of transport van?

And then the issue of whether he should have been seatbelted. Which, to me, may not just be on the officers involved. Because, if turns out, as has been alleged, that prisoners resisting who may present a danger to LE are typically NOT seatbelted, it will be hard to prove they were criminally responsible. If higher ups and, basically everyone in the dept knew, that the "seatbelt" policy was perhaps more honored in the breach, then it will be very difficult to hold the officers responsible in any criminal way or even to hold them personally responsible for negligence. The Police Commissioner may be the responsible one if he "allowed" the seatbelt rule to be routinely circumvented, i.e. he "knew" and did nothing. There's often an "official policy" and actual practice. Maybe the whole method of transport is negligent, although I'm sure there are safety and other reasons for having such a bare bones van used for prisoner transport. And if it is, who is responsible? The officers or the city and officials who are charged with looking at the whole arrest and transport process?

And so my comments are not misconstrued, FG should not have died from being arrested and transported. It was tragic. But what actually caused that and who, if anyone, is criminally responsible, is a whole different issue.

Completely agree with you. I want more information before hanging LE. BUT...the mayor and commissioner are completely responsible for the carnage and destruction of property. And allowing open-season on entire LE dept. Shame. All political and covering *advertiser censored***s.

 

[octobermoon]

O/T re shooting in TX

Matt Pearce ‏@mattdpearce 12s13 seconds ago
Garland mayor said security officer was shot in the leg, will be fine. Also said one suspect reached for a backpack after partner was killed

 

[al66pine]

"During the next five years, the department will transform itself to meet the vision set forth by these pillars.... Following the reform process, the Baltimore Police Department will reflect the following characteristics:...."

"A community that truly shares responsibility for setting the standard for safety and security in every neighborhood; where community members are vocal that they will not tolerate aberrant criminal and deviant behavior that damages their neighborhoods’ quality of life."

What happened re ^?
- Seems community shares respons. for setting safety & security stds (by recent actions).
- Catch is community tolerates aberrant criminal & deviant behavior, damaging quality of life.
IDK what BPD can do about that part of the vision.

From 192 page rpt dated Nov 2013 "A Strategic Plan for Improvement" http://www.baltimorepolice.org/news on pages 6 & 7 ~ 1 yr after Batts became PC. (bbm & sbm)

-

 

[kaen]

it was only when, reportedly, he was acting "irate" that he was removed and had his feet shackled.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/arrest-to-death-what-happened-to-freddie-gray/

Now I have no idea whether the series of events with FG was reasonable or normal. I have zero experience with being arrested so no clue on that front. And there was a very selective presentation of "facts" by the prosecutor and we haven't heard from ANY of the several officers involved.

If your feet are shackled could you still use them to stabilize yourself while sitting? I'm just thinking of, sorry, Jodi Arias and her walk across the courtroom for JSS. She was shackled. But maybe she was shackled differently. Again, I just don't know enough to say whether the officers actions were reasonable and/or whether FG's resistance activities caused in whole or part his injuries. Was he placed on the floor intentionally so he couldn't fall? Did he fall and end up on the floor? What is usually done with a cuffed and shackled prisoner when placed in that type of transport van?

And then the issue of whether he should have been seatbelted. Which, to me, may not just be on the officers involved. Because, if turns out, as has been alleged, that prisoners resisting who may present a danger to LE are typically NOT seatbelted, it will be hard to prove they were criminally responsible. If higher ups and, basically everyone in the dept knew, that the "seatbelt" policy was perhaps more honored in the breach, then it will be very difficult to hold the officers responsible in any criminal way or even to hold them personally responsible for negligence. The Police Commissioner may be the responsible one if he "allowed" the seatbelt rule to be routinely circumvented, i.e. he "knew" and did nothing. There's often an "official policy" and actual practice. Maybe the whole method of transport is negligent, although I'm sure there are safety and other reasons for having such a bare bones van used for prisoner transport. And if it is, who is responsible? The officers or the city and officials who are charged with looking at the whole arrest and transport process?

And so my comments are not misconstrued, FG should not have died from being arrested and transported. It was tragic. But what actually caused that and who, if anyone, is criminally responsible, is a whole different issue.

According to the timelines, he was moved the block to Baker at the order of Lt. Rice. Earlier on this thread, someone from the area said that often go a block away when things are heated at the arrest site. The stop was planned as soon as they got him in the van. The Baltimore Sun map is very informative about the different stops. This was confirmed by Mosby as well, I believe.

Mosby's Statement: Lt. Rice Officer Miller and Officer Nero loaded Mr. Gray into the wagon and at no point was he secured by a seatbelt while in the wagon contrary to a BPD general order. Lt. Rice then directed the BPD wagon to stop at Baker Street. At Baker Street, Lt. Rice, Officer Nero and Officer Miller removed Mr. Gray from the wagon, placed flexi-cuffs on his wrists, placed leg shackles on his ankles and completed required paperwork.

 

[ShadyLady]

He called for help with the exception of the one stop.

Exactly. Driver called for help. If he wanted the guy hurt or dead, why would he have called at all. And we don't know yet, why he stopped the second time?

 

[ShadyLady]

According to the timelines, he was moved the block to Baker at the order of Lt. Rice. Earlier on this thread, someone from the area said that often go a block away when things are heated at the arrest site. The stop was planned as soon as they got him in the van. The Baltimore Sun map is very informative about the different stops. This was confirmed by Mosby as well, I believe.

I wonder if he got hurt when they put him in a sitting position. If that was it, hurting him was probably not intentional.

 

[DebinGA]

He called for help with the exception of the one stop.

Hopefully, any calls Goodson made were recorded. Even after multiple stops, he volunteered to go pick up another person near the original site rather than continue to his destination asap. That doesn't sound like someone desperately concerned about the welfare of FG imo.

 

[epiphany]

Completely agree with you. I want more information before hanging LE. BUT...the mayor and commissioner are completely responsible for the carnage and destruction of property. And allowing open-season on entire LE dept. Shame. All political and covering *advertiser censored***s.

I am in agreement with you here, Shady!

Certainly, the burning & looting should have been dealt with promptly.

But the PC & the Mayor seem to be in sync with how things were handled.

IF the PC feels differently, I'd like to see a link. I haven't come across that he differs in approach.

 

[kaen]

I wonder if he got hurt when they put him in a sitting position. If that was it, hurting him was probably not intentional.

Mosby's statement: Lt. Rice Officer Miller and Officer Nero loaded Mr. Gray into the wagon and at no point was he secured by a seatbelt while in the wagon contrary to a BPD general order. Lt. Rice then directed the BPD wagon to stop at Baker Street. At Baker Street, Lt. Rice, Officer Nero and Officer Miller removed Mr. Gray from the wagon, placed flexi-cuffs on his wrists, placed leg shackles on his ankles and completed required paperwork.

There are descriptions and videos from bystanders that state the FG was put back in the van in an aggressive way. Bystanders were in fear for him here as well. BPD had already been called about concerns which is why Sgt. White was sent to the van ultimately.

 

[kaen]

Hopefully, any calls Goodson made were recorded. Even after multiple stops, he volunteered to go pick up another person near the original site rather than continue to his destination asap. That doesn't sound like someone desperately concerned about the welfare of FG imo.

I agree it does not sound like he was concerned-- a big red flag for me as the other information about what happened at this stop does suggest there was a problem. I read somewhere that he and Porter were concerned but Goodson followed Porter as he responded to the call of another arrest. This was the time that Porter (as Goodson has made no statements) reports that Gray had asked for assistance twice and affirmed his need a third time. Gray was described as being unable to talk. No one else besides the two of them were at this stop. (Now, this might be recorded if a recording does exist.)

 

[ShadyLady]

Hopefully, any calls Goodson made were recorded. Even after multiple stops, he volunteered to go pick up another person near the original site rather than continue to his destination asap. That doesn't sound like someone desperately concerned about the welfare of FG imo.

We still need more info. He could have been directed to do so. We don't know if Mr Gray acted the same way during previous arrests, so they ignored him thinking he was faking...and it was all an accident.

 

[lonetraveler]

I find it a bit suspect that the officers did not secure FG with the seatbelt because of a concern for their own safety but had no trouble taking him out of the van and putting him in leg shackles.

 

[ohreally]

Sgt. White was sent to the van as a result of two (or more) complaints that came in after the initial arrest. Citizens were concerned about Gray's treatment and yelling in pain. They called the BPD. White was sent to make sure that Gray was not injured. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-riots/bs-md-sgt-alicia-white-20150501-story.html

Sgt. Alicia White, 30, is the second-highest-ranking officer involved in the Gray case, having been promoted to sergeant in January. She joined the Police Department in 2010 and earned $57,797 in 2014.



Baltimore Police Sgt. Alicia White
Charges against Sgt. Alicia White, 30, in the death of Freddie Gray: Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office. Read the story: Alicia White was promoted to sergeant this year (Baltimore Police Department)
White met the van at its last stop at 1600 W. North Ave. before the final drive to the Western District police station. She was responsible for investigating two citizen complaints against Gray's arrest. She tried to speak to Gray in the van and when he didn't respond, State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby said, White "did nothing further despite the fact she needed a medic." White made no effort to further examine his condition or call anyone, according to Mosby.

I sure don't get the bolded part. Why would an officer show up to investigate, find the prisoner unresponsive and just walk away when they have just showed up and are in the clear of anything that has happened. It makes no sense. She had to of known that if he was unresponsive, possibly dead, and did not report it right then when that she would have to later explain her involvement. Also, if I am reading it correctly Goodman is the only other person there, and he has not given report. That means that she would of had to of reported on herself that he was unresponsive and did nothing. It makes no sense.
Also I find it interesting that in the Baltimoresun link it says that Goodman called and asked for another officer to come help him. Mosby says it is because of two citizen's complaints.

 

[lonetraveler]

A "Roughy" ride is nothing new. My husband told me about a "roughy" ride he was given after being arrested for DUI. He was in his late twentys at the time. You are handcuffed with hands behind your back and thrown into the back of the paddy wagon and the driver deliberately drives very bad, ie., slamming on brakes, swerving side to side, taking turns recklessly causing the "prisoner" to slam around helplessly like a tennis ball in the spin cycle of a washing machine.

 

[al66pine]

....
And then the issue of whether he should have been seatbelted. Which, to me, may not just be on the officers involved. Because, if turns out, as has been alleged, that prisoners resisting who may present a danger to LE are typically NOT seatbelted, it will be hard to prove they were criminally responsible. If higher ups and, basically everyone in the dept knew, that the "seatbelt" policy was perhaps more honored in the breach, then it will be very difficult to hold the officers responsible in any criminal way or even to hold them personally responsible for negligence. The Police Commissioner may be the responsible one if he "allowed" the seatbelt rule to be routinely circumvented, i.e. he "knew" and did nothing. There's often an "official policy" and actual practice....

Short answer:
I've not found text of new (~2 wks old) BPD policy or gen order re restraints in police van.
Per 1997 BPD policy - Restraining-in was not mandatory for each & every arrestee.
Paraphrasing: default is to restrain, but after evaluating circumstances, not to endanger LEO.
So exceptions on case-by-case basis are part of policy.
-Verbatim-quoting & linking 1997 pol below.
JM2cts.
_________________________________________________________________
Long answer, bringing this over from closed thread.
Footwarrior--- Thanks for tracking down policy dated 1997.
http://www.aele.org/law/2009all10/ba...-transport.pdf

"Whenever an arrestee is transported in a police vehicle, ensure:
> That he/she has been searched and handcuffed, (hands cuffed in the rear), before being placed in a prisoner transport vehicle or a “C. P.” truck.
> The arrestee is secured with seat/restraint belts provided. This procedure should be evaluated on an individual basis so not to place oneself in any danger.
> That the seat/restraint belt is placed securely around the waist or upper body of the arrestee to prevent the arrestee from maneuvering out of the restraint and possibly causing injury to them or others." bbm
_________________________________________________________________________________
If anyone can link new policy, it could be different. Anyone?

 

[SStarr33]

A "Roughy" ride is nothing new. My husband told me about a "roughy" ride he was given after being arrested for DUI. He was in his late twentys at the time. You are handcuffed with hands behind your back and thrown into the back of the paddy wagon and the driver deliberately drives very bad, ie., slamming on brakes, swerving side to side, taking turns recklessly causing the "prisoner" to slam around helplessly like a tennis ball in the spin cycle of a washing machine.

Mosby did not mention any rough ride.

 

[kaen]

I sure don't get the bolded part. Why would an officer show up to investigate, find the prisoner unresponsive and just walk away when they have just showed up and are in the clear of anything that has happened. It makes no sense. She had to of known that if he was unresponsive, possibly dead, and did not report it right then when that she would have to later explain her involvement. Also, if I am reading it correctly Goodman is the only other person there, and he has not given report. That means that she would of had to of reported on herself that he was unresponsive and did nothing. It makes no sense.
Also I find it interesting that in the Baltimoresun link it says that Goodman called and asked for another officer to come help him. Mosby says it is because of two citizen's complaints.

The Sun says White arrived based on two complaints. Mosby confirmed it in her statement.

 

[kaen]

Mosby did not mention any rough ride.

I think the union rep. attorney did. No?

ETA link: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/us/freddie-grays-injury-and-the-police-rough-ride.html Seems like this common knowledge and practice.

 

[MissSunshine]

Regarding the seatbelt in the van-I have personally never been in the back of a police van but I do know people who have. I asked them about the seatbelts and they are like what seatbelts?. Now, this is only like 7 people I have asked so not a huge population compared to how many people are arrested in Baltimore.