Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #3

[kemo]

Just to set the record straight, can anyone verify one single instance, in the last 50 years, of an Amrican or Western European woman being "snatched" and sold into forced prostitution? Yea, Women in Moldavia or other such places are lurded to the west with promises of big money as "waitresses" and find themselves in some sort of "debt-bondage". Their "contracts" might be bought or sold, family back home might be threatened etc. This is what "human trafficing" is all about. The other stories are just urban legends

 

[monkeypants]

FWIW, I think that once she started running, it was more important to stop her than to harvest her for merchandise at that point.

ummm so you don't think they had the opportunity to capture her if that is what they desired when they had 3 boats and apparently each boat had 3 or 4 pirates on it depending on what day of the week it is when TH told the story and they all had automatic weapons. How about when they had the "gun pointed in her face 10 feet away from her" when she spoke to them <or she didn't depending on the day of the week>???

It appears to me that if they didn't want her to get away they seemed to have the upper hand on her and she wouldn't have gotten away...especially since one scenario she told has her in the water trying to get David "back" on her jet ski....so she was literally a sitting duck at that point....

 

[sdmike1974]

It seems to me that much of what TH has said about the encounter could be construed as a carefully crafted narrative to justify leaving David at the scene (if that is what really happened). She knew this would be an issue and needed a strong and believable explanation.

For example, she has said the following (paraphrasing):

• He was too heavy to lift his body onto my jet ski.
• Please don't criticize me for leaving as I made a valiant effort to turn around and return to a wounded David to see if I could possibly rescue him.
• A gun was pointed at me so I had to flee for my life ASAP preventing me from spending more time considering other options.
• It was a message from God (divine intervention) to spare me by letting me know I had to leave David behind to save my own life.
• I was being fired upon as I left the scene which precluded any thought of returning ... and I was followed most of the way back making it clear I could not return.

Personally I think whatever transpired (and we may never know) took place on land. I also don't think it was a drug deal gone bad (my initial theory) b/c TH's reaction would have been far less muted during the initial interviews. Same goes for the speculation that DH may have been involved in some kind of illegal activity with the Mexican oil company his employer had a contract with.

I'll leave it to others to speculate as to whether it was a carefully planned homicide, insurance fraud or a political scam to draw attention to border violence. I sincerely do not want to offend Salem or Tricia and the fine work they do for all of us who find this site so helpful in sleuthing crimes and standing up for victims.

My perusal of TH's Facebook page seems to suggest a loving couple with many supportive friends and no hint (at least not publicly) of any trouble in their marriage. I think I speak for most of us in hoping that this tragedy is exactly what it seems and that TH is being totally forthcoming.

 

[Salem]

Just to set the record straight, can anyone verify one single instance, in the last 50 years, of an Amrican or Western European woman being "snatched" and sold into forced prostitution? Yea, Women in Moldavia or other such places are lurded to the west with promises of big money as "waitresses" and find themselves in some sort of "debt-bondage". Their "contracts" might be bought or sold, family back home might be threatened etc. This is what "human trafficing" is all about. The other stories are just urban legends

O/T - You may want to review the circumstances of this young woman: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39093"]NV NV-Jessica Edith Louise Foster, 21, Las Vegas, 2006 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

We also have a human trafficking awareness here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91597"]Human Trafficking Awareness Thread - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

It does happen. Just sayin'

Salem

 

[monkeypants]

My perusal of TH's Facebook page seems to suggest a loving couple with many supportive friends and no hint (at least not publicly) of any trouble in their marriage..

Actually her FB page discusses outrageous spending for a couple that speak of financial problems and also financial seminars to get out of debt. I would call that a weak point in any marriage that some can deal with and others it stresses it to a point of intolerance. It is after all the second largest reason for divorce.

 

[Ransom]

BBM:

snipped....
http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_16463510#ixzz13mZhKMBL[/color]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'll take the word of the secretary of Homeland Security on these issues over Tiffany Hartley's any day.

ETA: I sure hope the Mexican authorities accepted US assistance in this case and the investigation is ongoing.

http://www.news8austin.com/content/...of-drug-cartels-in-mexico-could-affect-austin
Changing face of drug cartels in Mexico could affect Austin

Thrash said primarily three drug cartels operate in Austin, including La Familia, the Gulf Cartel and Los Zetas. Two those cartels have recently combined forces against the other, resulting in an escalation of violence in Mexico. Mexico's annual death toll from the drug war has risen from 1,080 in 2001 to 6,687 in 2009.
............
Los Zetas was previously the enforcement arm of the Gulf Cartel, but became increasingly more powerful and broke away as recently as January.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39914899/ns/us_news/
Arizona beheading raises fears of drug violence

http://www.scpr.org/programs/patt-morrison/2010/10/19/drug-cartel/
Mexican drug cartels have been active in the United States for some time, suspected to have carried out hits against competing drug dealers and also in a string of home invasion robberies in border towns like El Paso. But the indictments filed by federal authorities against 43 people in San Diego is eye opening to a vastly expanded Mexican cartel presence in the U.S., complete with franchising, store fronts and partnerships with Latino street gangs. Will we see the likes of Juarez here in California as Mexican drug cartels push to increase their U.S. presence?

hmmmmmm.... I believe the local people. Just me though.

 

[kemo]

O/T - You may want to review the circumstances of this young woman: NV NV-Jessica Edith Louise Foster, 21, Las Vegas, 2006 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

We also have a human trafficking awareness here: Human Trafficking Awareness Thread - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

It does happen. Just sayin'

Salem

I realized this is not a "Human trafficing" forum but since you raised the point, I will defend my position.

What I was refering to was the "situation" where women are abducted and "forced" to engage in prostitution, and often transported across state or international borders. Anyone under the age of consent, which differs by jurisdiction, can not "legally" consent to engage in prostitution, but that was not what I was refering to.

Now some people might consider a woman who is lured into prostitution by a sweet talking pimp, need for drugs, or just "poverty and desparation" to be a victim of "human Trafficing" but to use that term in a context that most people reading would assume they ment something closer to my "definition", is pretty disingenuous. By using "human trafficing" and "prostitution" interchangibly, they making ordinary "working girls" "victims" through a rheterical "sleight of hand".

There is no evidence that Jessica Foster's situation was anything other than the trajic case of a working girl who was murdered by her pimp. The Human Trafficing Awarness thread seem to be focused on Child prostitution.

Again, I will reiterate: Is anyone aware of a verifiable case of a woman from the WEST who had no involvement in the "life" being abducted and FORCED to engage in prostitution?

 

[monkeypants]

hmmmmmm.... I believe the local people. Just me though.

I am trying to follow this line of thinking....so help me walk through it...so I can connect the dots.

Are you stating that based on these links/articles you believe TH story? Even though none of these are articles on the pirates at this particular lake?

I guess I am just confused about all these links being used to support TH story. These are not incidents on the Lake...they are all over mexico, san diego and arizona. While I can appreciate that they are gang related and violent, they are not specific to the location at hand.

I do not believe there is anyone on this entire forum who would dispute the reality of the violence that is happening on the borders-or is arguing that it doesn't exist- however I don't see the link to this particular case as each territory that these gangs/pirates monitor are very precise and how they patrol and react are very calculated-military like.
TH story doesn't fit in at all as to how the pirates and cartel have operated prior on this lake-with such an escalation of unprompted and random violence. It isn't supported by any of these links as there is no basis. In fact all these links make me more suspicious of TH as it appears not only does she have intimate knowledge of the cartels via her husband's employment and that she lived in both mexico and texas but perhaps she has done some googling or research of her own prior to all this-since the events she explained could fit better into different areas of mexico (land vs water however) than exactly where her "story" takes place.

TH story is such a departure from the history of violence on this lake that I have such a hard time believing there wasn't one person on the entire lake in either country that didn't hear the hail of multiple automatic weapons or see such a fast and intense chase. It seems that this would have been noticed by someone on that lake (resident or person on a watercraft) either by sight or sound.

Pirates are always there but they rob and intimidate and don't shoot and they certainly don't usually have 3 boats filled with 3 or 4 pirates on each boat chasing a jet ski at the highest rate of speed they can go while shooting automatic guns. <seems so Miami Vice to me that I can't get the theme song out of my head just typing it> All completely unprompted for any reason what so ever....If I am wrong and this has occured in any shape or form on THIS LAKE please correct me and I will apologize immediately for not fully educating myself on this particular lake and occurences.

 

[krimekat]

I realized this is not a "Human trafficing" forum but since you raised the point, I will defend my position.

What I was refering to was the "situation" where women are abducted and "forced" to engage in prostitution, and often transported across state or international borders. Anyone under the age of consent, which differs by jurisdiction, can not "legally" consent to engage in prostitution, but that was not what I was refering to.

Now some people might consider a woman who is lured into prostitution by a sweet talking pimp, need for drugs, or just "poverty and desparation" to be a victim of "human Trafficing" but to use that term in a context that most people reading would assume they ment something closer to my "definition", is pretty disingenuous. By using "human trafficing" and "prostitution" interchangibly, they making ordinary "working girls" "victims" through a rheterical "sleight of hand".

There is no evidence that Jessica Foster's situation was anything other than the trajic case of a working girl who was murdered by her pimp. The Human Trafficing Awarness thread seem to be focused on Child prostitution.

Again, I will reiterate: Is anyone aware of a verifiable case of a woman from the WEST who had no involvement in the "life" being abducted and FORCED to engage in prostitution?

What about the Ed Bagley case in Missouri . . . in 2005, he advertised the young girl's "services" and opened up the torture to others.

I'm not convinced they wanted to capture her for any specific reason but she may have been worth ransom $$$.

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

Actually her FB page discusses outrageous spending for a couple that speak of financial problems and also financial seminars to get out of debt. I would call that a weak point in any marriage that some can deal with and others it stresses it to a point of intolerance. It is after all the second largest reason for divorce.

That is the first time I have heard that financial problems are the second largest reason for divorce. Do you have a link supporting that claim?

 

[evergreen]

Actually her FB page discusses outrageous spending for a couple that speak of financial problems and also financial seminars to get out of debt. I would call that a weak point in any marriage that some can deal with and others it stresses it to a point of intolerance. It is after all the second largest reason for divorce.

the money trail can tell an interesting story.

 

[monkeypants]

AutomaticAuttie says:Quote:
Originally Posted by jdj125
Actually her FB page discusses outrageous spending for a couple that speak of financial problems and also financial seminars to get out of debt. I would call that a weak point in any marriage that some can deal with and others it stresses it to a point of intolerance. It is after all the second largest reason for divorce.

That is the first time I have heard that financial problems are the second largest reason for divorce. Do you have a link supporting that claim? "

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-2-Top...hey-Are-and-How-You-Can-Avoid-Them&id=3988063

Money

The root of all evil, if you will. Money struggles are one of the two top reasons for divorce. Money troubles will easily tear two people apart - IF YOU LET IT!!!



http://www.divorcereform.org/cau.html
From "Making Marriage Last", published by the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers at http://www.aaml.org/Marriage_Last/MarriageLastText.htm
Why Marriages Fail

Not all marriages fail for the same reason. Nor is there usually one reason for the breakdown of a particular marriage. Nevertheless, we hear some reasons more often than others.

They are:

Poor communication
Financial problems
A lack of commitment to the marriage
A dramatic change in priorities
Infidelity



http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/311828/the_most_frequent_cause_of_divorce.html
1.) Financial- Contrary to public belief, this is in fact the most common cause of divorce. Many couples fail to openly discuss financial situations before marriage such as individual debt, spending habits, salary information, etc. This can lead to one partner thinking the couple is living within their means, while the other partner sees the couple as financially spinning out of control. Also many couples fail to establish feelings of who should do the bread-winning or if the task should be split. A common situation is one from a wife who was socialized to believe the husband is the breadwinner, while the husband beliefs they should share financial responsibilities. It is crucial to form prenuptial agreements prior to marriage because it can protect either partner against financial ruin should the relationship fail.



need more?

 

[Ransom]

That is the first time I have heard that financial problems are the second largest reason for divorce. Do you have a link supporting that claim?

The "information" comes from a blog .... Blink. Not allowed HERE for a very, very good reason, IMO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

i guess I just don't understand why the pirates pointed a gun at her and then drove away after deciding they weren't interested and liked having witnesses but then after she decided<I mean God told her to> leave (why was that if they had made the decision to let her go BTW?) they suddenly changed their minds and began chasing her and shooting. The witness did NOT say he saw or heard any shooting and actually stated he thought it was nice that people were out enjoying the lake..

I think they let her flee in fear so she would run to the US and tell them the cartel had murdered her husband.

To me they wanted her to take the message back that if anyone infiltrates their territory for any reason bad things will happen to them.

It sends a message to stay out of their territory or 'you' will be next.

The cartel wants people to know how easily they can pick off anyone and they certainly got their point across imo.



IMO

 

[IWannaKnow]

Most of the trafficking is done FROM Mexico..taking the unfortunate local girls. That being said, they could have taken and profitably utilized Tiffany as a mule or even working on the packaging line. She's a bit over the age of forced prostitution...although not saying it couldn't happen..nor have been a focus of fun for any group of pirates. But, they either saw her as non-profitable or nonthreatening because they left her alone.... just like "nothing ever happened". Ahem ....??????

That is your interpretation of her presentation of the circumstances. She says one boat was pointing the gun at her, then they drove away to confer with the other two boats. At that point she decided she had to leave. When she jumped on the jet ski, they realized what was happening and pursued her. At least one boat. Doesn't really specify in the transcript below. That left potentially two boats of 4 to six men to get the body, take the key from the body, start the jet ski and take it where ever they desired. I feel sure they were long gone before the police even reached Tiffany.

http://www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1010/07/ijvm.01.html
ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Widow Calls for Return of Husband`s Body

Aired October 7, 2010 - 19:00:00 ET

TIFFANY HARTLEY, WIDOWED: Well, after we had taken the pictures at the church, we were on our way out when we saw a boat outside of this little brush area that was underwater.

When we were coming out, we saw them. They just waved at us, like we were -- you know, friendly, very friendly wave. We were on our way -- so we just continued, took a few more pictures, continued out. And we were, I don`t know, maybe halfway to the U.S. I can`t really give you a great idea of where exactly.

But we saw three boats coming towards us, and as soon as they started coming towards us, we just kind of started leaving. We passed them, and then they started chasing us. And once they started chasing us, they started shooting, and I had seen two shots next to me on my left. And that`s when I looked back to check on David, and that`s when I saw that he had been thrown off and into the water facedown.

And I, of course, no questions asked, not even thinking, just went right back to him to make sure and check and see, check on him to make sure he was OK. When I flipped him over, he was shot in the head.

And a boat came up to me and tried -- you know, I don`t know. They didn`t say anything to me, so I don`t know what they were trying to think or what they were doing, but they left. They just left me there. Thankfully, they didn`t shoot at me. They had a gun pointed at me.

And I tried getting David up on that -- on my Jet Ski, and then the three boats started heading back to me, and I just had to go. I just didn`t have enough time to get him up. And I just couldn`t do it, because he`s so much bigger than I am. That`s when I -- once I started...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.

HARTLEY: Go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, you go ahead.

HARTLEY: Once I started heading back -- once I started heading back towards the U.S. side, they had shot a few more times at me. I was on the side of my Jet Ski, between them and my Jet Ski. I was on the other side, so once I started to get going, I just went as fast as I could and didn`t look back until I couldn`t see them anymore.

Actually her FB page discusses outrageous spending for a couple that speak of financial problems and also financial seminars to get out of debt. I would call that a weak point in any marriage that some can deal with and others it stresses it to a point of intolerance. It is after all the second largest reason for divorce.

The post you discuss states that they went to a Dave Ramsey seminar. Not that they had to. Huge difference. In fact it says is "Luckily we are ahead of the game, but now were on track for our future." I do not get financial distress from that. I get a young couple with no children living in a country with very low cost of living, housing paid for and the husband earning a very good wage at his job. Yes they took alot of vacations. I have done the same myself in the past and if I were in their position, would be doing the same. It isn't outrageous spending if you can afford it. :twocents:

TH story is such a departure from the history of violence on this lake that I have such a hard time believing there wasn't one person on the entire lake in either country that didn't hear the hail of multiple automatic weapons or see such a fast and intense chase. It seems that this would have been noticed by someone on that lake (resident or person on a watercraft) either by sight or sound.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeKquXp8gKY[/ame]

I think it would be very informative to have Tiffany draw a map, diagram and pictures telling her story of what she and David saw and encountered from the time they entered the waters til the 911 call. LE and psychologists use it all the time for children who can't seem to express or get their jumbled thoughts together. Personally, I'd even pay to see a video of that. JMO

I agree. I would like to see a map or an approximation as well. I would like to know where they put in and where Tiffany came in, but I have to imagine that they don't want to tell to protect the person who saw her.

ummm so you don't think they had the opportunity to capture her if that is what they desired when they had 3 boats and apparently each boat had 3 or 4 pirates on it depending on what day of the week it is when TH told the story and they all had automatic weapons. How about when they had the "gun pointed in her face 10 feet away from her" when she spoke to them <or she didn't depending on the day of the week>???

I think the one boat that approached was surveying the situation and going back to report when suddenly Tiffany jumped on the jet ski and took off. They, at least one, pursued. If she refuses to get in the boat willingly, one was going to have to swim, unless they shot her and that would ruin things. Swimming with an AK 47 can't be an easy task. Then wrestle an uncooperative female? Not very macho. Or easy in the water. So no. I don't think they had time. :twocents:

 

[AnaTeresa]

It may not be highly publicized, but there were white slaves back in the day. Simply because it isn't widely known doesn't mean that it doesn't occur.

There are also Western women who are trafficked.

http://www.womensfundingnetwork.org...-america-sex-trafficking-in-the-united-states

http://www.stopfamilyviolence.org/i...-american-indian-women-and-girls-in-minnesota

What about Colleen Stan, the girl in the box? She was used as a sex slave, and could easily have been prostituted out. There's some speculation that Jaycee Dugard had been prostituted as well, although I doubt we'll have any real evidence until trial for that claim. Or, the Ed Bagley case.

Frankly, I don't think we need to split hairs on what human trafficking is, or exactly what circumstances one thinks is "actually" trafficking.

Furthermore, the idea that TH would have been trafficked is pure speculation and we currently have no evidence supporting the idea. While it's plausible, I would argue mistaken identity, involvement with the cartels (that we do not know of), or rogue cartel members over human trafficking because there aren't any facts that point to trafficking persons from Falcon Lake.

 

[easttexas]

It may not be highly publicized, but there were white slaves back in the day. Simply because it isn't widely known doesn't mean that it doesn't occur.

There are also Western women who are trafficked.

http://www.womensfundingnetwork.org...-america-sex-trafficking-in-the-united-states

http://www.stopfamilyviolence.org/i...-american-indian-women-and-girls-in-minnesota

What about Colleen Stan, the girl in the box? She was used as a sex slave, and could easily have been prostituted out. There's some speculation that Jaycee Dugard had been prostituted as well, although I doubt we'll have any real evidence until trial for that claim. Or, the Ed Bagley case.

Frankly, I don't think we need to split hairs on what human trafficking is, or exactly what circumstances one thinks is "actually" trafficking.

Furthermore, the idea that TH would have been trafficked is pure speculation and we currently have no evidence supporting the idea. While it's plausible, I would argue mistaken identity, involvement with the cartels (that we do not know of), or rogue cartel members over human trafficking because there aren't any facts that point to trafficking persons from Falcon Lake.

This is the first time that I came across anyone posting about Colleen Stan. And I do believe her story...totally brain washed

 

[evergreen]

I think the one boat that approached was surveying the situation and going back to report when suddenly Tiffany jumped on the jet ski and took off. They, at least one, pursued. If she refuses to get in the boat willingly, one was going to have to swim, unless they shot her and that would ruin things. Swimming with an AK 47 can't be an easy task. Then wrestle an uncooperative female? Not very macho. Or easy in the water. So no. I don't think they had time. :twocents:

she was in the water and supposedly there were boats there with men and guns just looking at her struggling with her husband. they had plenty of time to shoot her. God intervened and they let her go. Then God intervened again and told them to go chase her.

this from a CNN article:


She was holding David by his life vest with one hand, her Sea-Doo with the other, when she found herself staring down the barrel of a gun. The men had returned.

She said she made eye contact with two of them, no more than 12 feet away, pleading, "Don't shoot. Please don't shoot."

 

[hollyblue]

I think they let her flee in fear so she would run to the US and tell them the cartel had murdered her husband.

To me they wanted her to take the message back that if anyone infiltrates their territory for any reason bad things will happen to them.

It sends a message to stay out of their territory or 'you' will be next.

The cartel wants people to know how easily they can pick off anyone and they certainly got their point across imo.


IMO

Why get rid of any "clientele"? This was the "pirates" mode of operation. They would stop victims, rob them of money, drugs and weapons if they had any. I don't think they would be sending a msg for people to stay out if they wanted them to come there for their enterprise. Makes no sense.

 

[hollyblue]

Snipped:

That is your interpretation of her presentation of the circumstances. She says one boat was pointing the gun at her, then they drove away to confer with the other two boats. At that point she decided she had to leave. When she jumped on the jet ski, they realized what was happening and pursued her. At least one boat. Doesn't really specify in the transcript below. That left potentially two boats of 4 to six men to get the body, take the key from the body, start the jet ski and take it where ever they desired. I feel sure they were long gone before the police even reached Tiffany.

http://www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1010/07/ijvm.01.html
ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Widow Calls for Return of Husband`s Body

Aired October 7, 2010 - 19:00:00 ET


I agree. I would like to see a map or an approximation as well. I would like to know where they put in and where Tiffany came in, but I have to imagine that they don't want to tell to protect the person who saw her.



I think the one boat that approached was surveying the situation and going back to report when suddenly Tiffany jumped on the jet ski and took off. They, at least one, pursued. If she refuses to get in the boat willingly, one was going to have to swim, unless they shot her and that would ruin things. Swimming with an AK 47 can't be an easy task. Then wrestle an uncooperative female? Not very macho. Or easy in the water. So no. I don't think they had time. :twocents:

I don't understand your argument? They still let her go...unharmed. Why? Witness to a murder? If the cartels or pirates, they knew it would be reported and put a damper on their "business". Doesn't add up. imo


If they chased her back close enough for someone to see them, don't you think they know exactly where she ran a ground and possibly saw the "the witness" too? I really don't know why the sighting witness would frightened...Tiffany's the one who supposedly saw everything and yet they let her go. ??



If her story is true, how would shooting her ruin it more for them....they already killed David? If this was the cartel, I truly believe they would have shot her and gained another jet ski. If they wanted her in the boat, and she refused. Bang. I don't think they would say oh gee I now have to put my gun down in the boat and get wet to retrieve this spoiled brat; nor do I think anyone toting a AK47 would have a macho problem when faced with an uncooperative female. How many have they shot already? Even if it was young, undisciplined Zetas or pirates as I mentioned above..why let her go and ruin their business? They apparently were pro enough to get rid of DH and his jet ski with no evidence.....so they could have very well done the same with her and had no proof of anything....except his truck and trailer at the dock. ???? Pirates or a couple just taking off for new horizons? Maybe things would have been a little difficult business wise for awhile, but they wouldn't have had a witness to go back and blab and point the finger directly at them. I just don't see it the way she says it went down. Maybe DH pulled a weapon back at them? Carrying a weapon on the lake is illegal in first place, and TH didn't want to bring it up? The only reason I can think of for them shooting DH, and he being the first on the lake, is if he pulled a weapon on them. But still, to me the question remains....why they let her go.

JMO