MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #7

[JerseyJo]

Another thing re liking or caring about kids.

I cannot see that DR needs a lot of money. He lives with his parents. Even if he shares in the utilities, he does not have to buy dishes or furniture, etc.

He has so many additional jobs outside of his regular teaching job involving kids.

If you do not need the money that much, the only other reason would be that you enjoy children so much,

If that is the case, why the lack of concern of a missing child the age of students you teach?

I am not a teacher, but I can pretty much guarantee if a child was abducted anywhere near or on my property, I would be "up" all night. I am fairly certain I would insist that LE thoroughly search my property, including my home.

I find it somewhat curious that DR was concerned and nervous over the possibility of someone stealing wood from his property, but not so much when he learned a child had been abducted. Things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[KeepHopeAlive]

You can hear a long way in the country with no buildings. But, he heard them on the way out and accosted them on the way back. Minimum of 1/2 hour, I would say .

As far as the prints, we really know nothing about the prints they have for Jacob or a suspect

It should be made clear that this is just your assumption, not a proven fact.

 

[HEY YOU!]

It should be made clear that this is just your assumption, not a proven fact.

The only way for someone to have known where the boys were going was to see where they came from. It is a fact not an assumption. Some guy was not just randomly standing on DR's driveway wearing black pantyhose over his head and holding what appeared to be a gun. He was prepared to attack and prepared to not be recognized.

 

[ELOCsoul]

The only way for someone to have known where the boys were going was to see where they came from. It is a fact not an assumption. Some guy was not just randomly standing on DR's driveway wearing black pantyhose over his head and holding what appeared to be a gun. He was prepared to attack and prepared to not be recognized.

While I would agree that its the most likely scenario that that they were seen on the way to the store, it is not an absolute.

It could be they were heard, and not necessarily seen. Or, it could be that someone tipped them off after overhearing a phone conversation. Or there could have been a perp in the area looking for the boy scouts that had been camping in the area the night before.

Many have differing opinions about what happened, and that's ok. I believe KHA was merely suggesting that we state beliefs as opinions rather than facts. Strong likelihoods alone do not support conclusions as facts.

The only sure thing about this case is there are no sure things. The best we can do sometimes is agree to disagree so we can build on facts and ideas.

 

[KeepHopeAlive]

While I would agree that its the most likely scenario that that they were seen on the way to the store, it is not an absolute.

It could be they were heard, and not necessarily seen. Or, it could be that someone tipped them off after overhearing a phone conversation. Or there could have been a perp in the area looking for the boy scouts that had been camping in the area the night before.

Many have differing opinions about what happened, and that's ok. I believe KHA was merely suggesting that we state beliefs as opinions rather than facts. Strong likelihoods alone do not support conclusions as facts.

The only sure thing about this case is there are no sure things. The best we can do sometimes is agree to disagree so we can build on facts and ideas.

Yes, I just meant that when we are stating opinions, we should be making it clear that it is an opinion only. If something is stated as fact, then it needs to be backed up. We do not want to confuse the actual facts of the case with something that is not proven to be true. In this instance, what I was referring to is that it is not proven that DR ever even heard the boys. I'm not saying it isn't possible. It is just an assumption that he could have heard the boys. But as far as I know, there is no documentation stating that this is what happened. If there is, please provide it. Thank you.

 

[human]

While I would agree that its the most likely scenario that that they were seen on the way to the store, it is not an absolute.

It could be they were heard, and not necessarily seen. Or, it could be that someone tipped them off after overhearing a phone conversation. Or there could have been a perp in the area looking for the boy scouts that had been camping in the area the night before.

Many have differing opinions about what happened, and that's ok. I believe KHA was merely suggesting that we state beliefs as opinions rather than facts. Strong likelihoods alone do not support conclusions as facts.

The only sure thing about this case is there are no sure things. The best we can do sometimes is agree to disagree so we can build on facts and ideas.

Where were these scouts camping?

Who could have possibly overheard the phone call?

I do not know, but I cannot imagine that LE did not look at every incoming and outgoing phone call.

The idea of someone going to an incredible amount of work and subterfuge such as tapping phone lines seems ludicrous when there are children unsupervised all over the place

 

[human]

Yes, I just meant that when we are stating opinions, we should be making it clear that it is an opinion only. If something is stated as fact, then it needs to be backed up. We do not want to confuse the actual facts of the case with something that is not proven to be true. In this instance, what I was referring to is that it is not proven that DR ever even heard the boys. I'm not saying it isn't possible. It is just an assumption that he could have heard the boys. But as far as I know, there is no documentation stating that this is what happened. If there is, please provide it. Thank you.

wouldn't that be something if he ever admitted he heard the boys.

I am afraid that will not happen. Unless he has an attack of conscience.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Where were these scouts camping?

Who could have possibly overheard the phone call?

I do not know, but I cannot imagine that LE did not look at every incoming and outgoing phone call.

The idea of someone going to an incredible amount of work and subterfuge such as tapping phone lines seems ludicrous when there are children unsupervised all over the place

I don't know where the scouts were camping, but it would be interesting to find out.

Regarding the phone call, I wasn't suggesting a tapping, but an overhearing. Could have been at the pizza place or the party. Not a high probability by any means, but a possibility.

 

[Trackergd]

Just a question here. Has there ever been a complaint (formal or otherwise) with regard to DR being inappropriate with any other child?

 

[ELOCsoul]

Just a question here. Has there ever been a complaint (formal or otherwise) with regard to DR being inappropriate with any other child?

No. When the search warrant on the farm was being executed the school put a monitor in his classroom. The monitor remained until the day after sheriff Sanner announced no evidence wad found.

An official from the school said there had never been a complaint about Rassier in over 20 years in the district.

 

[human]

it would seem compelling that no complaints have ever been filed, but how many many many cases do we see where nothing for twenty , thirty years and then the complaints start coming.

I know of a situation where I live where a teacher was doing things for sure. My friend and I tried to do something about it. No luck.

I tried talking to a mother of a boy he had an affair with. A boy who committed suicide, but she would not talk to me. Why should she?

Lots of us knew things such as him taking kids camping and giving them liquor, but that was before Jacob happened, so people did not think about those things.

After Jacob, it took a few years for all of this to sink into consciousness.

Look at the problems with people trying to get info about the abusing priests.

Plus there is the Stockholm syndrome where the abused would never rat off the abuser.

I know with this teacher that I know, he stopped doing things that could be suspicious. He appeared to be more into looking. He was the coach for different kinds of boy's after school sports as well as his regular teaching job.

I know when I was in school a million years ago, there was a male teacher we girls thought was creepy. Whether he ever did anything, I do not know. But we knew nothing then of teachers being inappropriate. That topic was never discussed or brought up by anyone.

Because DR is a person of interest does not mean that he necessarily did it himself. He could know who did it. It most certainly could have been someone visiting him.

 

[human]

I don't know where the scouts were camping, but it would be interesting to find out.

Regarding the phone call, I wasn't suggesting a tapping, but an overhearing. Could have been at the pizza place or the party. Not a high probability by any means, but a possibility.

OK. Let's think of the pizza place.

When you order a pizza, do you say anything about what you are doing? Like you are having buddies over to watch a game, or your children are going to be alone so you are ordering them a pizza? Or, do you say the size, ingredients and give the address?

As far as the party, let us say someone overhears. Or possibly the parents even talk about the situation.

Now what? How does anyone communicate that this is an opportunity! not only are the kids alone, they are going out!

How does this phone call happen before the advent of everyone having a cell phone. And let us say they had a cell phone, What are the chances that there was a tower in that remote area?

 

[human]

when did cell phones become common

http://answers.ask.com/business/telecommunications/when_did_cell_phones_become_popular

 

[shergal]

when did cell phones become common

http://answers.ask.com/business/telecommunications/when_did_cell_phones_become_popular

I'd say it was even later than that, more like 2000, before cell phones became really popular. You have to remember the first cell phones looked like this. :floorlaugh:

http://easyloungin.com/forum/topic.php?bb_attachments=547196&bbat=37458&inline

 

[Jbrown324320]

what if they used police scanners or cb radio to communicate?

 

[ELOCsoul]

I'm not sure what the poster was trying to say here, but wasn't there a St. Joseph police office under internal investigation in 1990 for possessing a police scanner that had been obtained from the department under questionable circumstances? I want to say I had come across something about there being three separate internal investigations into the prior police chief's regime. Bill Lorenz was the chief at the time of Jacob's abduction, so the internal investigations would have been from incidents during his administration. Any locals recall anything about this??

OK, I found the article. It's from the July 19, 1991 St. Cloud Times. St. Joseph police conducted 3 internal investigations into problems with officers during Bill Lorenz' tenure. One officer was disciplined for pointing a firearm at a SJU officer on two separate occasions. Another officer was reprimanded for using excessive force during an arrest in 1990. Lorenz was investigated for a dispute over whether or not he had properly purchased a police radio from the city.

 

[human]

what if they used police scanners or cb radio to communicate?

I suppose they could have.

But why?

Why all of the intense gyrations on a maybe.

After all, who would ever guess the kids were even home.

After all, the oldest girl went to a friend's.

What would be to say the rest of the kids would be home?

It seems way too convoluted to me

 

[shergal]

what if they used police scanners or cb radio to communicate?

Good point, JBrown. We know that Feeney had a police-type radio in his car. (link below) And he has stated as his alibi that he was in Jacob's neighborhood that night, but was dropping off some other boy from a camping trip. He could have radioed one of his pedo buddies and told them he had just seen the boys heading out of their house.

"This is a man who lured children in over 20 years ago with his decked out ex-police car. (He was an EMT and had lights, push bumpers and police radio) Children thought it was great. Soon after he became the Youth Minister for St. Joseph Catholic Church, another way to access children."

http://voices.yahoo.com/mathew-feeney-slipped-through-their-fingers-will-11461654.html?cat=9

 

[HEY YOU!]

Good point, JBrown. We know that Feeney had a police-type radio in his car. (link below) And he has stated as his alibi that he was in Jacob's neighborhood that night, but was dropping off some other boy from a camping trip. He could have radioed one of his pedo buddies and told them he had just seen the boys heading out of their house.

"This is a man who lured children in over 20 years ago with his decked out ex-police car. (He was an EMT and had lights, push bumpers and police radio) Children thought it was great. Soon after he became the Youth Minister for St. Joseph Catholic Church, another way to access children."

http://voices.yahoo.com/mathew-feeney-slipped-through-their-fingers-will-11461654.html?cat=9

He would have been my #1 suspect as he was in the neighborhood and had a history. Wasn't he officially ruled out? Correct me if I'm wrong. And let's say he radioed a pedo friend, they only had less than 30 minutes to get into 'position' with dark clothes and pantyhose over the head. And how would he know where the boys were going and that they would be coming back that way shortly? And then we go back to no strange tire prints in DR driveway which is why I think DR pulled his car down the driveway and turned it back around to face his house, Jacob's footprints ending where DR threw him into HIS OWN car, and brought him back to house or an outbuilding...maybe even pulled into an outbuilding that he had left open and shut the door behind him. DR was the only one who knew the habits and schedule of the Rassiers who owned the driveway that Jacob was taken from. Anybody else was taking a huge risk that the homeowner would come down that driveway at any time, or could be outside observing activity in the driveway. DR was the only one who knew that the only person home was DR and that he had nothing to fear from anyone coming at him from the direction of the Rassier house. He may have also know the boys and seen them before which is why he safely assumed that they would be back that way. In my opinion, of course.

 

[Jbrown324320]

great job finding that ELO

OK, I found the article. It's from the July 19, 1991 St. Cloud Times. St. Joseph police conducted 3 internal investigations into problems with officers during Bill Lorenz' tenure. One officer was disciplined for pointing a firearm at a SJU officer on two separate occasions. Another officer was reprimanded for using excessive force during an arrest in 1990. Lorenz was investigated for a dispute over whether or not he had properly purchased a police radio from the city.