OH - 9 killed + Gunman, 16 injured, Mass Shooting, Oregon District, Dayton, 4 Aug 2019

[heed101]

I can predict dozens of antifa in El Paso and Dayton tomorrow...and trouble

Exactly...politics need to stay out of these cities and let everyone have a chance to grieve.

 

[MassGuy]

Whether that was his intent or not, it was the end result. Look at all the politicians (from both sides of the aisle) making statements this week blaming the shootings on the other party. I’d argue in today’s environment any US mass shooting will inevitably be a tool used by politicians and the press to influence legislation and upcoming elections. Therefore, IMO by definition it’s terrorism.

The result doesn’t matter, it’s the intent of the perpetrator.

So if he intended to commit violence in order to achieve political gain, then that’s terrorism.

If politicians take advantage of this massacre to score political points, it’s repugnant, but irrelevant to the act being “terrorism.”

It doesn’t elevate it to that level.

 

[Doghairrules]

“He was being really mean to her,” Gould said of Connor’s behavior towards his sister. Connor Betts, 24, opened fire early Sunday morning on a crowd in Dayton's Oregon District killing nine before police killed him.

Gould said that she stepped in to defend her friend.

“He strangled me because I got in his face to leave her [Megan] alone,” she said.

Connor, a high school freshman at the time, strangled Gould until his mother started crying, begging him to stop.

Gould didn’t tell anyone about the incident.

“His mom saw it,” she said. “They were gonna talk to someone.”

'He strangled me': More on childhood of Dayton shooter Connor Betts

How would her parents not know about this and report it? His parents should have called them immediately to let them know what happened and what they were going to do about it.

 

[Colorado303]

He was a ticking time bomb for a long time.
I wonder how he treated his mother?
And how much did his father intervene or try to help? Seems he was gone a lot away from the home. Maybe no consistent discipline or guidance. Can't imagine living in the same home with him.
It just seems no one was safe with him around.
I'm glad to see the FBI investigating but I think
they'll come to the same conclusion most of us
have suggested. That is that he needed to get
professional help a long time ago when he
was still possibly redeemable.

Sadly, some people aren’t redeemable. They have faulty wiring that can’t be fixed. And sounds like this guy was one of them.

 

[Doghairrules]

Exactly. And if you couldn't get a gun you could build a bomb out of supplies bought at your local Home Depot. Or simply drive your vehicle into a group of people (Europe). Or trap people in a building and set it on fire (Japan & Mexico). Etc, etc...humans with homicidal tendencies are not exclusive to the U.S. It happens everywhere.

You both seem to be missing the point of the article, which explained how these laws would help LE TRACK domestic terrorists the way they do international terrorists. The intention is not to scare the terrorists into doing the right thing, it’s for LE to hopefully get wind of a plot before it happens and go in and remove their access to guns.

 

[Tillicum]

WATCH LIVE: Statement expected on behalf of Betts family

BELLBROOK, Ohio (WDTN) – Bellbrook Police Chief Doherty is expected to present a statement on behalf of the Betts family Tuesday evening.

 

[Colorado303]

The result doesn’t matter, it’s the intent of the perpetrator.

So if he intended to commit violence in order to achieve political gain, then that’s terrorism.

If politicians take advantage of this massacre to score political points, it’s repugnant, but irrelevant to the act being “terrorism.”

It doesn’t elevate it to that level.

Good point. And reminds me why I hated law school. If I hit someone in the head just to annoy them, but they have an eggshell skull and die I’m responsible for murder even though my intent wasn’t to kill anyone.
The fact that I intended to hit and the hit caused a death makes it murder.

Here, if I intend to and successfully shoot a bunch of people and the result of my actions happen to influence an election, it’s only my intention that matters — not the end result.

G-d bless all you lawyers out there and everyone else w/the patience to understand the difference.

 

[danzn16]

I prefer to hold off on judging the parents until we know more. It’s quite possible they tried to get help for their son but had nowhere to go. Friends of the Sandy Hook shooter’s mother say it was no secret she’d tried to get her son assistance from multiple sources but was turned away.

Or perhaps they did get help and the mental heath professional(s) assured them he wasn’t dangerous (like the U of C counselor who discouraged police from placing the Aurora theatre shooter on a hold for mental health evauation just weeks before his crime).

I have friends with a child just 10 that has already threatened lives of family members and w/the help of Google tried to build a bomb. Their parents took them to multiple psychologists but nothing helped. They almost went broke because insurance wouldn’t cover more than 12 visits yet they were denied public resources because they made “too much money”. And these are not rich people!

Their older child told their school counselor they felt their life was in danger at home because of the troubled sibling, but school and DFS never followed up. Imagine being a teenager fearing for your life, summoning up the courage to tell “authorities” and no-one cares. The messages they took away from that were a) their life doesn’t matter. b) speaking up just creates trouble and c) F#%K school!

Now that kids depressed and cutting class. Not good.

But back to the troubled kid. Eventually a psychologist told my friends to take the child to an ER and have them admitted. The hospital transfered the kid to a mental heath facility for observation, and after a week professionals there said the parents needed to take the child home and “get them some therapy”. Which of course they’d already done.

The parents realized if the kid came home one of them would have to move out with the other kids in order to keep them safe. For the first time in an otherwise happy marraige there was talk of divorce.

My friends consulted a family attorney who advised them to not pick up the child. They would be charged with child abandonment but as a ward of the state the child would finally get the help they needed.

They followed the attorney’s advice and DFS (the same DFS that did absolutely NOTHING when the sibling reported they felt unsafe at home) immediately started an abandonment investigation. For the sake of all their children they stuck to their guns, endured public critisism and decided to take their chances in court defending “abandonment” charges. First so their child could finally receive the mental health treatment they so badly needed. And also so they didn’t have to continue to lock up their knives, bleach, scissors, lighters, matches and anything else their 10 year old might try to kill them with.

When they explained their dilema to DFS, instead of providing menta health resouces DFS put their efforts towards finding an extended family member that would take the child in. And granted custody to relatives who’s own children are drug/alcohol addicts and/or convicted criminals. The child is still not getting the help they need, and they’re getting older. Soon if they feel like it they’ll be able to drive to their parent’s house and burn it down. Or run their siblings/schoolmates over in the street. Or both.

This child has no criminal record. They will be able to buy firearms legally in just a few years. (and no philosophy here-IMO stricter gun laws wouldn’t stop this kid from getting one illegaly if necessary). This child has been exhibiting multiple red flags for years and could very well be in the news soon committing some heinous act of violence. These parents are aware enough to recognize it and resisted the urge to stick their heads in the sand. They feel helpless and are worried sick.

I’m sure there are other families in similar situations, also at a loss as to what they can do. Some of their kids will hurt people, thankfully lots more probably won’t. But mental health resources need to be available to counsel those kids who can be helped and identify the ones who can’t.

These shootings aren’t because of Trump supporters or leftist socialists. It sickens me to see politicians, pundits and “news” venues use mass shootings as a tool to further political agendas and fan more hate. It won’t help a bit and IMO just gives the next batch of shooters more reason to get all worked up.

If only politicians, community activists, religious leaders, school officials and society in general would abandon the heady thrill of hate/righteous indignation. Imagine what could be accomplished if that energy were redirected and people worked together to promote tolerance and make sure mental health resources are available to anyone who needs them. But that won’t generate ratings, clicks or win elections. So it’ll never happen.

Thank you for sharing this story. When I was in medical school I did my psych rotation and the state inpatient psychiatric hospital where the most severe cases were seen from all over the state. There were antisocial personality children who instigated violence and sex rings on the ward, injured workers, etc. When the parents came to visit they would turn to angels and beg to come home with them and act kind and friendly and smile. It was like they were an entirely different person. And the second the family left the smile faded and they returned to harming other children on the ward despite the best efforts of the staff. The child had been in outpatient therapy and hospitalized multiple times and was only at the state ward because of severe injury to other poor children. Nothing they did helped the kid. And you can’t keep them there forever and they are smart enough to know exactly what to say to be released. Sometimes all that can be done is wait till they commit an egregious crime and they will be become part of the prison system to keep the rest of the population safe. There are some people who are unable to be better. And we have absolutely no plan for these people until AFTER they kill people. And we need to change that. What do other countries do? Surely there are similar children in other countries? I would love to know what there plan is or if it’s the same.

 

[glamourkitty1922]

Opinions - A criminal could care less about all your new or current law proposals, now or in the future. Just a waste of time and money. It is against the law to kill people already.................moo

But passing the law will keep the law abiding from having weapons and then the criminals will have a safe working environment with plenty of unarmed prey.

 

[glamourkitty1922]

And we have all those special people that say the shootings never happened and the people are crisis actors

You're right, I'd forgotten about them. Have they started in with their insane comments again?

 

[Breezie]

Family of gunman, victim in Dayton shooting release statement

 

[glamourkitty1922]

I dunno. They hide their faces, because they are cowards.

I don’t see them showing up. They don’t have the guts.

Their mommies probably won’t let them anyways.

I hope Antifa stay hidden in their holes like cockroaches. We don't need more terrorists causing misery.

 

[rsd1200]

from his photo standing next to his sister. He looks exactly what a mass shooter would look like. There's an odd expression, dead eyes. Why did LE drop the ball 10 years ago?

What could they have done, ten years ago? He was 17, and they had to prove that he was making "true threats". He shot up a place where folks actually liked him, not the school that he went to, so even if they'd banned him from within 500' of that school, for life, this still would have happened.

 

[Gardenista]

Exclusive video shows Dayton gunman Connor Betts in bar in hours before shooting - CNN

 

[crhedBngr]

Sadly, some people aren’t redeemable. They have faulty wiring that can’t be fixed. And sounds like this guy was one of them.

I'm wondering if he had a history of violence against his parents as well.

I know we're not allowed to sleuth them, but this thought did cross my mind.

I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on.

JMVHO.

 

[Tillicum]

Exclusive video shows Dayton gunman Connor Betts in bar in hours before shooting - CNN

How creepy is that?

 

[x_files]

I prefer to hold off on judging the parents until we know more. It’s quite possible they tried to get help for their son but had nowhere to go. Friends of the Sandy Hook shooter’s mother say it was no secret she’d tried to get her son assistance from multiple sources but was turned away.

Or perhaps they did get help and the mental heath professional(s) assured them he wasn’t dangerous (like the U of C counselor who discouraged police from placing the Aurora theatre shooter on a hold for mental health evauation just weeks before his crime).

I have friends with a child just 10 that has already threatened lives of family members and w/the help of Google tried to build a bomb. Their parents took them to multiple psychologists but nothing helped. They almost went broke because insurance wouldn’t cover more than 12 visits yet they were denied public resources because they made “too much money”. And these are not rich people!

Their older child told their school counselor they felt their life was in danger at home because of the troubled sibling, but school and DFS never followed up. Imagine being a teenager fearing for your life, summoning up the courage to tell “authorities” and no-one cares. The messages they took away from that were a) their life doesn’t matter. b) speaking up just creates trouble and c) F#%K school!

Now that kids depressed and cutting class. Not good.

But back to the troubled kid. Eventually a psychologist told my friends to take the child to an ER and have them admitted. The hospital transfered the kid to a mental heath facility for observation, and after a week professionals there said the parents needed to take the child home and “get them some therapy”. Which of course they’d already done.

The parents realized if the kid came home one of them would have to move out with the other kids in order to keep them safe. For the first time in an otherwise happy marraige there was talk of divorce.

My friends consulted a family attorney who advised them to not pick up the child. They would be charged with child abandonment but as a ward of the state the child would finally get the help they needed.

They followed the attorney’s advice and DFS (the same DFS that did absolutely NOTHING when the sibling reported they felt unsafe at home) immediately started an abandonment investigation. For the sake of all their children they stuck to their guns, endured public critisism and decided to take their chances in court defending “abandonment” charges. First so their child could finally receive the mental health treatment they so badly needed. And also so they didn’t have to continue to lock up their knives, bleach, scissors, lighters, matches and anything else their 10 year old might try to kill them with.

When they explained their dilema to DFS, instead of providing menta health resouces DFS put their efforts towards finding an extended family member that would take the child in. And granted custody to relatives who’s own children are drug/alcohol addicts and/or convicted criminals. The child is still not getting the help they need, and they’re getting older. Soon if they feel like it they’ll be able to drive to their parent’s house and burn it down. Or run their siblings/schoolmates over in the street. Or both.

This child has no criminal record. They will be able to buy firearms legally in just a few years. (and no philosophy here-IMO stricter gun laws wouldn’t stop this kid from getting one illegaly if necessary). This child has been exhibiting multiple red flags for years and could very well be in the news soon committing some heinous act of violence. These parents are aware enough to recognize it and resisted the urge to stick their heads in the sand. They feel helpless and are worried sick.

I’m sure there are other families in similar situations, also at a loss as to what they can do. Some of their kids will hurt people, thankfully lots more probably won’t. But mental health resources need to be available to counsel those kids who can be helped and identify the ones who can’t.

These shootings aren’t because of Trump supporters or leftist socialists. It sickens me to see politicians, pundits and “news” venues use mass shootings as a tool to further political agendas and fan more hate. It won’t help a bit and IMO just gives the next batch of shooters more reason to get all worked up.

If only politicians, community activists, religious leaders, school officials and society in general would abandon the heady thrill of hate/righteous indignation. Imagine what could be accomplished if that energy were redirected and people worked together to promote tolerance and make sure mental health resources are available to anyone who needs them. But that won’t generate ratings, clicks or win elections. So it’ll never happen.

I feel like this is NOT a rare situation.
Why are they so many violent angry children?
(theoretical question.)

 

[x_files]

What could they have done, ten years ago? He was 17, and they had to prove that he was making "true threats". He shot up a place where folks actually liked him, not the school that he went to, so even if they'd banned him from within 500' of that school, for life, this still would have happened.

Not sure why the KILL/RAPE list wasn't deemed a real threat when he was still in HS.
Strangling his friend, holding a loaded gun up to his other friend's head. Those would be considered assault.
Why no arrests? It confuses me. So many ignored red flags by LE before he went amok last Saturday night.

 

[danzn16]

Exclusive video shows Dayton gunman Connor Betts in bar in hours before shooting - CNN

It says there was communication between CB and his friend after CB left the bar. I wonder if he told them he was in Ned peppers and maybe that is why MB and friend had left Blind Bobs and were waiting in line to get in. So CB knew exactly where they were when he started shooting. I feel like it is is much too much of a coincidence for him to shoot both people he knew versus it being random. All just speculation on my part.

So so strange.

 

[Safeguard]

When the dead have been buried and the legal/political score settled, we will still be facing a nation of angry young men. Does it escape everyone's notice, that all the proposed and much argued "solutions" to mass shootings, fall far short of addressing alienated, angry, young people?

When will there be some "legislation" proposed, that we have to take our kid's, and their problems seriously? That we can't rely on mandated reporters, school personnel, friends or others to notice when our children exhibit violent anti-social tendencies.

Where can parents turn, when they suspect their child is dangerous, but there is no (legal) proof?

imo, this generation, of newly minted, "adults" is in crisis for which we have NO system in place to deal with. No manual or guidelines...

Take away all the weapons you can, and you still are still left with the genesis of the problem. When are we going to get around the solutions for that?

eta: There's been a gigantic shift in the dynamics of American families, and clearly it has not been beneficial to our children. Particularly our boys. I really think we need to look at that a lot harder than we are willing to.