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What is really sad is that I was in Florida in middle of October and drove around looking for the "A" house (and did find it and it is nothing great!), but we were on the road (we went by Hope Springs Drive, a little lost) that Caylee's remains were found and turned around in the school parking lot.

We made the comment "wonder if she is right here in these woods and we would not even know it."

Very sad to know we drove right by her and if we would have only got out of the car to look, she could have possibly been found sooner.

:-(
 
Thanks Florida Katz

so am I correct in thinking that leaves of some plants fall off which builds up on the ground. If there are no fires that burn it out for years and years (like here in California) then it can get quiet deep with layers of fallen leaves and such?
OT while we are discussing snakes and creepy crawlers, when a hurricane comes through does this dislocate creepy crawlers to peoples yards? :eek:


Yes and Yes ! Yes, there are the types of trees that drop leaves, and the leaves do build up and then either burn from fires or turn brown from flood waters. Yes, it can get deep with a mixture of leaves, vines, palm fronds, brush/ tall grass and sandy dirt.

Yes on the creepy crawlers being dislocated, but it happens both during and after brushfires and hurricanes. In 2004 when we had hurricanes Francis and Gene, I found a 6 ft. cotton mouth wrapped around the palm tree in my screened in pool area. By the time I found it, she had already had babies and they were in my pool skimmer. DH was in the Middle East at the time, so I was on my own to get them out !! :eek: Then the weekend of Mothers Day in 2008, we had a 70 acre brush fire in the preserve around my neighborhood. I'm in a cul-de-sac which backs up to the preserve. During and right after the fires, we had snakes, wild boar, bobcats, deer, armadillos, rabbits, crawfish, regular fish, turtles, otters and a few other crawlers coming out through our yards. On a regular day when we have no fires or hurricanes, I still find snakes, rabbits, squirrels, armadillos, bobcats and an occasional deer walking or slithering through my yard.
 
You will see the same kind of overgrowth when you drive through the country in East and SE Texas and Louisiana. The Kudzu has made it to us and is like a solid wall. There are plenty of pine forests where you can walk, but those are commercially maintained and controlled. The wild growth gives me the creeps when I think about having to walk even a few feet through it. The pics posted could easily have been taken where I grew up. Whew...!!
 
Thank you Pirate and AlphaLeader for the narratives of your experiences in viewing the site. The plain, clear, down to earth descriptions you both provide in such calm language help to bring some comfort to me since I am unable to personally view the area and have become so emotionally invested in the case. I know I would have been shaking the entire time. I can truly understand why the site was not discovered before it was from what you have related to us. It must have been one of the most difficult things to do, but it is very much appreciated, both the visits and the descriptions.
 
I had to pick someone up at the airport and arrived about 45 minutes early so I took a detour and followed Lee Vista to Chickasaw to Suburban. I had not been out there since Dec 12 and at that time you couldn't get near the scene. It was chaotic and highly energized. This time it was quiet and I was able to really feel the area.

Once you turn on Chickasaw from Lee Vista, it's about two miles to Suburban. As I made that turn my stomach began to churn. And when I turned onto Suburban I began to shake. As I approached the intersection of Hopespring and Suburban I could see a memorial on each side of Hopespring.

The area where Caylee was found is just beyond that intersection- maybe 20 yards or so. It is definitely much closer to Hopespring than to the dead end and well before the entrance to Hidden Oaks Elementary school.

What surprised me is this- the area that was cleared was NO WAY even close to an acre. Not even 1/2 or 1/4 acre. It was about the size of a large above ground swimming pool. I know it was reported that they found evidence in an area an acre in size but I don't know how they did that. Caylee was very close to the road- definitely not 60 feet- maybe 30-40 feet at the most.

However, the woods are very dense there. You cannot see clearly more than 4 or 5 feet into the untouched areas because of all the scrub and palmetto bushes. It is absolutely plausible to me that her body sat there with nobody noticing. When you turn right off of Hopespring onto Suburban it goes about 1/8 or 1/4 of a mile before it dead ends. There is nothing other than woods on the right and the bus loop entrance to the elementary school on the left at the very end.

Once school closed at the end of May or beginning of June, there was no reason for anybody to pass by there as the entrance to the bus loop is gated and the main entrance to the school is on the other side. The playground/school grounds are not open to the public when the school is closed. I cannot imagine kids playing in or near those woods since it is so dense and low lying. So yes, I do believe Caylee would not have been noticed.

I also think it would have been very easy for Casey to dump the body here without anybody noticing. Since nobody would have any reason to drive past there when school is closed she could have easily parked with her car facing Hopespring, opened the trunk and unloaded a bag with her daughter's remains in broad daylight and nobody would have seen her.

I did not see anything round nailed to a tree but I did see what looked like a short (2ft hi) lattice type landscape fence that was propped up against a tree closer to the dead end. And I did notice the chain link fence closer to the dead end but not close to where Caylee was found. It is shiny and new- must have been put up very recently as those things tend to look tarnished and rusty after a year or so.

The physical response I had to being in that area was intense. My body was shaking when I drove past there and it took about 30 minutes after I left before I felt normal again. That area is absolutely full of strong signs that something horrible happened there. I felt no peace, I felt a very angry vibration in the air. I can't explain it and I won't even try to speculate or place a source for that deep feeling- but it is not restful and calm. It is highly charged in a way I've never felt before. And I don't know if I can imagine that area ever feeling peaceful again.

And I am generally a very calm person- I rarely react so physically to anything- and if I do, it doesn't last as long as this did.

I wonder if any other sleuthers felt the same when/if they visited the area.

Pirate.............thanks for your report! It gives those of us that are out-of-state a pretty good idea of how close Caylee was to home. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for those people who live right there on Hopespring and Suburban. I read about the school and their efforts to minimize the psychological affect this whole thing has on the children, and that's necessary since the children will be constantly reminded of this when they're coming and going to school.

A brief story.........in 1918, in a small town in upstate NY, there was a terrible murder. A farm hand killed a man and his daughter with an axe while they were asleep in their beds. The daughter's girlfriend, who was spending the night, was injured but escaped. The man's wife had spent the night with her mother, on a farm a mile away, as her mother had suffered a stroke. This murder tramatized the school children who had to walk by the farmhouse where the murders took place on their way to school. My uncle, at the age of 90, still remembered the fear he had when he walked past that house.
 
I'm in the Volusia/Flagler area and I know of a place near me where I can get white sage. Would it do me any good to shred & scatter it there since I can't burn it?


And I've seen speculation about entering the woods all over this board. Should I start a thread and post those pictures?

Not sure about shredding and scattering it, but I guess it couldn't hurt ?

I WOULD NOT enter the woods on that property as long as they have the "No Trespassing" signs posted if I were you. They also have a camera posted at the top of a light post, pointing down on the property. Not sure who monitors the camera, but I've seen OCSO on the local news telling people that they will arrest them if they trespass on the property.

I wish we could figure out a way to identify and contact the property owner so we could ask if a cleansing could take place there. When I watched the video on YouTube of the psychic, her daughter, grandson and dog, as soon as they turned off of Hopespring and onto Suburban when the dog started panting loudly, I got this sick feeling, and I wasn't even there, but watching it on the internet. DH said that when he went to the site he had an uneasy feeling, and he is usually not sensitive to that kind of thing.
 
Thanks Florida Katz, you answered my question and curiousty... yuck and yikes to your creepy crawler visitors.
 
Would the land be suitable to build on if the foliage was all razed? Was the whole neighborhood a swamp before it was turned into a housing development? I'm just wondering if the difficulty in making the land suitable, not just snakes and removing foliage but also the land itself as far as drainage, could be why the owner has never done anything with it.

I mean, it's one thing for it to be covered in thick foliage, but it's entirely another if the land is too low-lying and prone to flooding.

I lived in SW FL over 20 years and my Grandfather always said the entire state was a swamp before development began.
My neighborhood was very well developed, but just one empty lot was enough to harbor large snakes.
 
If anyone can direct me in a harmless way to try to clear this area I will do it. Can I sprinkle sage or toss some seeds? I will take any advice- either on an open forum or in a direct message.

PS- I know that the sage I need is not the kind we cook with. But I do need specifics. I don't want to burn anything there just in case.


I am part Cherokee, and we have a non intrusive way. We make rattles to scare away evil spirits, and at the same time, to invite the attention of good spirits. Rattles used to be made with turtle shells filled with corn kernels, but you could use any type I guess.(like the Mexican type) You can also make them from gourds and squashes.

Funeral ceremonies have great religious significance, and among Eastern Cherokee the funeral is the most Important life cycle ritual.
 
white sage ritual




Sage is used for clearing negativity--inside and outside ourselves, and from our dwellings, a room, an office, an attic or any other type of structure. We use it to cleanse our auras, too, when we have a 'bad hair day' and we're carrying around a lot of junk that we want to get rid of in a hurry.


Sage emits negative ions; just as a waterfall or running water, emits the same thing. This is why, when people are near running water, they always feel cleaner, cleaned off or just 'better' for seeming no reason at all. But there is a deeper reason. Our aura holds positive ions, much like a carpet when you walk across it, creates static electricity. Only, these positive ions are like dust in our aura and it simply makes us feel sluggish, tired, or just not our usual frisky, peppy self.


The smoke from the sage meets the positive ions, clings to them and neutralizes them out of our aura, or from the room or house where you live or work.


PROTOCOL FOR THE USE OF WHITE SAGE


Let me take you, step-by-step, on how to utilize a wand or stick of sage:


The first rule is this: once the sage is lit, you do not stop it from burning. The spirit of the sage knows just how much negativity or positive ions are around and it will burn accordingly. When the ions have been neutralized, it will cease burning on its own. You can tell how 'bad' it is by the quality of the smoke the smudge stick emits: thin, light smoke indicates the place or person is fairly clean. Thick, rolling white smoke means the place or person has a lot of positive ions or negativity around them and it needs this thicker smoke to deal with it. If you are done smudging, then set the bowl on your electric or gas stove and let it burn itself out until it is done. Under no circumstances are you to put it under water to douse the smoke or do something to stop it from burning. The spirit of the wand knows what is needed, and where. If you watch the smoke, you will see it drift to a particular part of the room, car, or person because that is where the healing/catalyzation of energy needs to be done and accomplished.


1. Always have a heat proof bowl to put the sage in, after it has been ignited. We use an abalone shell; but any piece of thick, fired pottery (or even a Pyrex bowl) will do. If you are using a bowl, you may well want an oven mitten on you hand to prevent burns because sage burns HOT. It is the spiritual nature of it to do so. Do not use a container that is not bake or tempered for high heat--it will crack it and it could cause a fire. Do not use anything metal, because heat is conductive and you will get burned.


2. Be safe. Do not have doors or windows or a fan on when you "smudge" yourself, a room or your house. It can blow sparks out of the bowl and onto the floor or surrounding area. Don't be wearing billowy, long-sleeved blouse or shirt when you fan the smoke. Don't have long hair draped down near the bowl with the smudge stick being held in it. Be common sensed about this.


3. Light the sage with a match at the very tips of the leaves on top of the wand. Once they flame to life, then blow them out quickly. We use a feather fan to do this, but you can use a piece of stout paper or even cardboard or a paper fan. It's important to NOT let it blame and burn. Once it is lit, and the flame is blown out, it will smoke thinly or thickly, afterward. The catalyzation comes with the smoke, not the flame.


4. Place the lit, smoking top of the wand of sage deep down inside the bowl and steady the rest of it, on the stick portion at the other end, with your other hand.


SMUDGING A ROOM


Keep the windows and doors closed to the room you have chosen to smudge. You can take a fan or a small piece of cardboard and start in one corner of your room, and gently waft the smoke after it clears the bowl, from the floor, up, toward the ceiling. Do this in a clockwise circle in each corner of your room. When you are done with the fourth corner, move to the center of the room, raise the bowl chest high and waft smoke up toward the center of the room. You are now done. When you leave the room, shut the door behind you. When you go back in an hour later; you'll see that the room feels better and is even "lighter" appearing to your eyes than before.


SMUDGING A HOUSE


If you are doing a complete house, then do each room in this fashion. Do not miss a room. Get all of them. If you want only one room done, then close the door behind you and smudge the room--and leave the smoke in that room--do not open windows or doors to let it out. It will dissipate surprisingly swiftly. You can also smudge your garage and basement in the same, above manner. Just make sure the garage door is closed and that the door leading to the basement is closed while smudging and closed after you depart from it.


SMUDGING YOURSELF​



Bend over, so that the bowl is about the level of your feet and ankles. Gently waft the smoke, with your fan, upward. As you slowly unbend and straighten up, you are bringing the sage/bowl and fanning the smoke up, up, upward until you've sent the smudging smoke up above your head. You are now "smudged" and clean, as we say.


SMUDGING AN ANIMAL


Take care not to burn the animal, or have sparks fly out on their coats or hair. Start at their head and gently waft the smoke from their feet to their head, and then move back, over their spinal area, and to their rear feet/tail region. They are now smudged.


SMUDGING AN OBJECT


If you have a piece of jewelry given to you, an heirloom piece, or something that you love, but it has "bad vibes" or just a bad feeling on it, then you can do the following: Lay it out on a table or some place where it is flat. Start at one end of the piece and gently fan the smoke across it, so that the smoke covers and flows across the entire piece. When it's done, let it sit for 24 hours, and then you can use it. The feeling/vibes will be very different. On a stubborn piece, you might have to do this 2 or 3 times, once a day, to get it entirely cleansed.


USING IT AS A TEA


I was taught to take 3 leaves, crinkle and break them up and put them into the bottom of a tea cup. Pour boiling water over them and let it steep 10 minutes. You can then drink it and eat the leaves. This is used to break a fever, induce a sweat and we drink this during a sweat lodge to cleanse ourselves of our inner negativity and darkness. If you're feeling bad, sometimes a cup of white sage tea helps a lot. Drink only one cup in a 24 hour period.


A SAGE BATH--AHHHH...


One of the nicest things you can do for yourself is crinkle up an entire wand or one ounce of dried leaves, into your bathtub. Fill it with warm to moderately hot water (don't burn yourself). Then, settle down into this big cup of tea for about 10-15 minutes. The sage is a natural cleanser and your physical body and aura both get cleaned up this way. It is particularly wonderful after a highly stressful time.​


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First let me say that the first two posts were written very well. Thank you to their authors.

When I went to a Tori Amos concert at The Kimmel Center in Philadelphia, she had sage burning all throughout the building and someone was shaking a container (like the Priests use) with sage all around her piano and organ. I guess it makes for a positive night, clearing all negativity, if any.



ITA HappyChic about the first two posts being written with so much thought, and appreciate that.

I am also glad to know about white sage as I have never heard about it before. I'm now going to see what kind of a shop sells this. It seems a wonderful way to clear out negativity in an open area, and think even sprinkling it would be very meaningful.

Also, in Oregon there are many developers who leave open spaces of vegetation for aesthetic value. In fact many developments in my area and on the Oregon coast leave a strip of natural vegetation with trees in the middle of the roads. xox
 
I really don't think so because there are homes behind her house now and she would have had to cross a lot of yards IIRC. I know on the maps it shows it an empty area, but it is not now.

Okay, so the Google maps and others are out dated then I take it. Does anyone locally know if the new houses were there in June?
 
Yes and Yes ! Yes, there are the types of trees that drop leaves, and the leaves do build up and then either burn from fires or turn brown from flood waters. Yes, it can get deep with a mixture of leaves, vines, palm fronds, brush/ tall grass and sandy dirt.

Yes on the creepy crawlers being dislocated, but it happens both during and after brushfires and hurricanes. In 2004 when we had hurricanes Francis and Gene, I found a 6 ft. cotton mouth wrapped around the palm tree in my screened in pool area. By the time I found it, she had already had babies and they were in my pool skimmer. DH was in the Middle East at the time, so I was on my own to get them out !! :eek: Then the weekend of Mothers Day in 2008, we had a 70 acre brush fire in the preserve around my neighborhood. I'm in a cul-de-sac which backs up to the preserve. During and right after the fires, we had snakes, wild boar, bobcats, deer, armadillos, rabbits, crawfish, regular fish, turtles, otters and a few other crawlers coming out through our yards. On a regular day when we have no fires or hurricanes, I still find snakes, rabbits, squirrels, armadillos, bobcats and an occasional deer walking or slithering through my yard.
No offense, but what makes you want to live there???:eek::eek::eek::waitasec:
 
I had to pick someone up at the airport and arrived about 45 minutes early so I took a detour and followed Lee Vista to Chickasaw to Suburban. I had not been out there since Dec 12 and at that time you couldn't get near the scene. It was chaotic and highly energized. This time it was quiet and I was able to really feel the area.

Once you turn on Chickasaw from Lee Vista, it's about two miles to Suburban. As I made that turn my stomach began to churn. And when I turned onto Suburban I began to shake. As I approached the intersection of Hopespring and Suburban I could see a memorial on each side of Hopespring.

The area where Caylee was found is just beyond that intersection- maybe 20 yards or so. It is definitely much closer to Hopespring than to the dead end and well before the entrance to Hidden Oaks Elementary school.

What surprised me is this- the area that was cleared was NO WAY even close to an acre. Not even 1/2 or 1/4 acre. It was about the size of a large above ground swimming pool. I know it was reported that they found evidence in an area an acre in size but I don't know how they did that. Caylee was very close to the road- definitely not 60 feet- maybe 30-40 feet at the most.

However, the woods are very dense there. You cannot see clearly more than 4 or 5 feet into the untouched areas because of all the scrub and palmetto bushes. It is absolutely plausible to me that her body sat there with nobody noticing. When you turn right off of Hopespring onto Suburban it goes about 1/8 or 1/4 of a mile before it dead ends. There is nothing other than woods on the right and the bus loop entrance to the elementary school on the left at the very end.

Once school closed at the end of May or beginning of June, there was no reason for anybody to pass by there as the entrance to the bus loop is gated and the main entrance to the school is on the other side. The playground/school grounds are not open to the public when the school is closed. I cannot imagine kids playing in or near those woods since it is so dense and low lying. So yes, I do believe Caylee would not have been noticed.

I also think it would have been very easy for Casey to dump the body here without anybody noticing. Since nobody would have any reason to drive past there when school is closed she could have easily parked with her car facing Hopespring, opened the trunk and unloaded a bag with her daughter's remains in broad daylight and nobody would have seen her.

I did not see anything round nailed to a tree but I did see what looked like a short (2ft hi) lattice type landscape fence that was propped up against a tree closer to the dead end. And I did notice the chain link fence closer to the dead end but not close to where Caylee was found. It is shiny and new- must have been put up very recently as those things tend to look tarnished and rusty after a year or so.

The physical response I had to being in that area was intense. My body was shaking when I drove past there and it took about 30 minutes after I left before I felt normal again. That area is absolutely full of strong signs that something horrible happened there. I felt no peace, I felt a very angry vibration in the air. I can't explain it and I won't even try to speculate or place a source for that deep feeling- but it is not restful and calm. It is highly charged in a way I've never felt before. And I don't know if I can imagine that area ever feeling peaceful again.

And I am generally a very calm person- I rarely react so physically to anything- and if I do, it doesn't last as long as this did.

I wonder if any other sleuthers felt the same when/if they visited the area.

We do not know if
precious Caylee lost her life here or not, or if she was merely laid to rest here. REGARDLESS ~ EVIL actions transpired here.

I am an "old school" Roman Catholic. I believe in the sacred powers of holy water. IF sprinkled on the path in, and where she was found, praying that all evil leave, and that dead Caylee, who is alive in Christ, be granted eternal rest and peace.In the name of the Father, Son, and holy Ghost.AMEN.

In many ways, something so simple, could be very powerful, and lend peace and comfort to the area, and to the soul of sweet Caylee. Any takers ?

Private property or not,IF I were not in OHIO, I would trust God
to watch over me,and visit the site.
 
Okay, so the Google maps and others are out dated then I take it. Does anyone locally know if the new houses were there in June?

I am not local, but they looked to me in November that they had been there a couple or three years at least. (yards, trees)
 
this may be a dumb question but
isn't there summer school at Hidden
Oaks Eleementary School in the summer
months? Someone mentioned that after
May the gates to the school were locked,
therefore the road wouldnt have been used
much. I know my grandson is in Elementary
school and had to go to summer school because
he was left back as he missed alot of school
due to epilespsy. I was just wondering this.
It would lead me to believe if there
was summer school there, she would not have
taken the chance in dumping her when school
was in session for fear a bus would
pass by, so thought something
on this line may have with a timeline of her
dumping her- would even lead me to believe she
dumped on her a weekend and not during the week
or during the week but in the evening.
 
We do not know if
precious Caylee lost her life here or not, or if she was merely laid to rest here. REGARDLESS ~ EVIL actions transpired here.

I am an "old school" Roman Catholic. I believe in the sacred powers of holy water. IF sprinkled on the path in, and where she was found, praying that all evil leave, and that dead Caylee, who is alive in Christ, be granted eternal rest and peace.In the name of the Father, Son, and holy Ghost.AMEN.

In many ways, something so simple, could be very powerful, and lend peace and comfort to the area, and to the soul of sweet Caylee. Any takers ?

Private property or not,IF I were not in OHIO, I would trust God
to watch over me,and visit the site.

I would do it if I were there.

I would trust God and wear HIGH boots. Trust me, there are lots of snakes.
 
this may be a dumb question but
isn't there summer school at Hidden
Oaks Eleementary School in the summer
months? Someone mentioned that after
May the gates to the school were locked,
therefore the road wouldnt have been used
much. I know my grandson is in Elementary
school and had to go to summer school because
he was left back as he missed alot of school
due to epilespsy. I was just wondering this.
It would lead me to believe if there
was summer school there, she would not have
taken the chance in dumping her when school
was in session for fear a bus would
pass by, so thought something
on this line may have with a timeline of her
dumping her- would even lead me to believe she
dumped on her a weekend and not during the week
or during the week but in the evening.

Unless it has changed, buses don't run for summer school in the south.
 
I just checked the Orange County Property Apprasisers site. Check this link for property owner info. Appears this area is a conservation area and only shows a value of $100.

http://www.ocpafl.org/pls/webappI/get_parcel_master?pid=302313129000021&query_data=1111111P

ok I'm shocked. It says that it's owned by a guy who lives in Winter Park, so why are they calling it a conservation area. conservation areas are owned either by the Homeowner Association, or by the city. And if it's only worth $100, then maybe I should make an offer on it, so we can then turn it into a memorial park or something...
 

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