Phone Calls and Phone Records

[missy1974]

Apologies, I have been away for a period and just caught up. So I just read this latest according to Zellner articles trending "Cellphone tower records of SA & TH provide airtight alibi for him. She left property he didn't."

If the cellphone records do claim SA did not leave the property - do proposed theories of him trying to disperse the bones get quashed? Meanwhile if he stayed on the property, how had he not noticed anyone dumping bones? Perhaps he did not take his cell phone with him..but I am curious about the "airtight alibi" and how the calls ascertain that TH "left property".

I think the alibi/phone thing would only relate to the 31st. And it is just saying that TH left the property (according to her cell tower records) and SA did not.

SA also had a landline, and we don't have those records.

The States theory or theories (because it depends on what trial you are reading) was that she was killed in the house or the garage, so how would her phone leave the property? and if it did leave the property..... how did it get back, and burned in the barrel?

IF the records show the phone pinged in Green Bay or near her residence, or near Zipperers, or maybe even the bridge where a phone/papers were found by Pam (that no one seems to have a record of), I don't know how SA is at home killing her but her phone is on the move and comes back to the Salvage yard, so for now, we have to wait and see ;-)

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

He could have taken it from her, She was dead at the house and the phone was with him when he left. All he had to do is leave his phone in the house..

I think that this only helps if they have a clear time of death.

 

[Madeleine74]

That's true he would have had control of her / her phone / his phone. One has to wonder why TH, if alive and on her own, would not have ever used her own cell phone again after 2:40pm that day. That's what really is the issue. Because we know at 2:40pm she was on the Avery property and we also know that SA called her 2x less than 30 min before that (obscuring his own cell # in both those calls).

There's also the matter of it not being only the phone, but TH's camera and PDA, all of which ended up burned in the same burn barrel about 20 ft from SA's trailer.

 

[AutumnDawn]

If he was using his cell phone and talking to various people while pinging from his residence, while Teresa's phone was pinging from a different location then that is an airtight alibi.

 

[Madeleine74]

If he was using his cell phone and talking to various people while pinging from his residence, while Teresa's phone was pinging from a different location then that is an airtight alibi.

Nope, it's only an airtight alibi for the phones. Doesn't tell you who was in possession of TH's phone at the time.

 

[missy1974]

If he was using his cell phone and talking to various people while pinging from his residence, while Teresa's phone was pinging from a different location then that is an airtight alibi.

Or if he was on his landline.

And how do we know for sure she was there at 2:41? Bobby? Dawn? because their testimony was so reliable?

Dawn's testimony is not 100% reliable IMO First off, she said that TH called her, when in fact Dawn called TH, then she said that TH said by the way it WAS the Avery brothers (past tense) and to me sounds like she was already there, otherwise, how would she know this?

 

[AutumnDawn]

Yes, landline would prove that be was inside his house talking on the phone while Teresa's phone was pinging somewhere else. It would still be an alibi.

Steven, Dawn, and Bobby all say she was at the residence around the same time. We know she couldn't find the Zipperers because it was on the voicemail. Then you have Dawn who talked to her saying she was on her way to the Avery's. In my opinion I think she was really there around the time they stated.

I believe she was at the Zipperers around 3:00 as JoEllen first stated.

 

[missy1974]

Yes, landline would prove that be was inside his house talking on the phone while Teresa's phone was pinging somewhere else. It would still be an alibi.

Steven, Dawn, and Bobby all say she was at the residence around the same time. We know she couldn't find the Zipperers because it was on the voicemail. Then you have Dawn who talked to her saying she was on her way to the Avery's. In my opinion I think she was really there around the time they stated.

I believe she was at the Zipperers around 3:00 as JoEllen first stated.

I tend to agree with you ;-) that she was at Zipperer's after, because we know that she called at 2:12 and left a message stating she was having trouble's finding their place. Did she give up and go to Avery's hoping she would get a call back?

As for anyone's testimony..... there are so many issues with it all LOL We have to not believe some testimony to believe others.... for example, propane guy and bus driver say 3:30-3:40. Then if we look at statements from early in the investigation.... it just makes the whole afternoon cloudy, Bobby not home... Bobby home and sleeping, etc.

 

[Madeleine74]

No one has alleged that SA left the Avery property that afternoon of Oct 31, so I'm not sure the value of proving it through his phone pings.

The question is if TH left the Avery property alive that day. Evidence suggests she did not.

1. She was never seen again after arriving at Avery's yard
2. She was never heard from again after arriving at Avery's yard
3. Her phone no longer connected to any tower as of 4:35pm
4. Her phone, camera, PDA were all burned in SA's burn barrel together, 20 ft from his trailer.
5. Her remains were on Avery property

The totality of the evidence taken together is what puts TH's phone and phone calls in context.

 

[AutumnDawn]

I personally do not believe the propane guy saw Teresa's vehicle, maybe he saw a vehicle that looked similar since it is a business. The bus driver lady I personally took that out a long time ago.

1. If she went to the Zipperers after the Avery stop, then Steven Avery was not the last to see her. Weigert and Reimeker had the same conversation that Zipperers was initially thoughy to be the last stop, not Avery.

2.Teresa herself set her phone to call forwarding at around 2:40ish, why she did that we will never know. I also find it weird that the papers made available to us show Avery as her last call of the day at 4:35, and nothing else to the November 1st, did everyone just stop calling her, and pick up the next morning. (Just an observation)

3/4. All that could have easily been planted. There are absolutely no pictures of the remains when they were found at the site, so we don't even know for sure what was actually found. The people responsible for working this kind of scene like an anthropologist was not called in, the "cremains" were shoveled into a box. The FBI report says that the remains cannot be excluded as Teresa Halbachs, with no further explanation, which means they could be hers or they could be someone else's. The test by the FBI wasnt even finished until January 19th, several months after they had publicly declared it was Teresa. More bones found in quarry. Her personal items would be easy to plant. Could they have found the vehicle with her personal items, and no body, possibly.

I'll look for more on how her/the remains were handled and that death certificate. I need to switch over to my laptop!

 

[Madeleine74]

I don't know if TH manually set her phone to forward calls that day or if there was some setting that happened automatically as a result of something else.

That TH was in touch with no one after 2:40pm that day who could verify she was alive and well, along with her phone no longer pinging a tower by 4:35pm and that SA himself places her with him at that time, means those 2 are linked by time and space. SA saying TH was alive, well, and left the property, isn't proof of such a thing occurring.

IF TH went to the Zipperer residence after SA, there's been no evidence presented to prove this. As such, the last known stop TH made that day is the Avery Salvage Yard.

If one is going to allege it was "easy to plant" a victim's stuff in the burn barrel in front of SA's trailer and claim that's what happened and that's how the evidence got where it was found, then the burden shifts to prove the planting, not merely suggest it could have or must have happened.

 

[AutumnDawn]

Well his lawyers did ask if they planted evidence, but of course no one is going to openly admit to that. I'm pretty sure his current lawyer is working on that angle, and have way more access then we have.

With that being said Steven and Chuck both stated they saw lights on the property on the night of the 3rd and 4th. Coincidentally on the 3rd Colborn goes missing from his own timeline for over an hour, also on the 4th when headlights are seen back by the gravel pit Colborn was off that day. Now, there is absolutely no way to prove it was him out there, because they only saw lights, and be sure isn't going to admit to it. Coincidentally though the very next day the vehicle is found on the Avery property.

JoEllen stated herself she was there at 3:00 before she changed it.




There was just

 

[Sarah]

Very, very interested to see where the tower records place her and at what time.
As for it creating an 'airtight alibi' for SA, it doesn't really change anything for me unless it places her back at her apartment or miles away.

I've maintained from the beginning that I believe the Propane guy's sighting.
This probably isn't the thread to go into it, but it's bolstered by what the bus driver says, he's adamant in his testimony that he had the right day and he states that on average he'd only ever see a couple of cars on that road each day - so while he didn't see the driver and can't be 100% sure that it was even TH's car, it would have to be a heck of a coincidence for there to be another blue/green SUV leaving the yard at around that time on that day.
And if there had been another customer visiting the yard in a car matching that description at that precise time . . . well don't you think somebody would have come forward?

I've always favoured the scenario that she left the yard but something caused her to return shortly afterwards.
My personal opinion was (and still is mainly) that it was somehow connected to the damage to her car and that she'd perhaps gone back to get mechanical help.

However, recently my mind has been turning to the possibility that SA gave us the answer with the reason he gave for his 4:35 call.
Perhaps he really had asked her to photograph another vehicle while she was with him but she did the sensible thing and told him to go via the 'official' AutoTrader route, then later had a change of heart and turned back.
I'm not sure that he's imaginative to come up with a good story for that 4:35 call, so maybe there was a little bit of truth slipping through there.

 

[missy1974]

Sarah ~ I agree about the cell records. They would have to place her at her residence, or even Green Bay I think to create an "air tight" anything. There is just no scenario that I can come up with where it would ping in those places if SA has possession of her phone at that time. I think, but not sure, even Zipperer's was close enough to Avery's, that it wouldn't be a for sure thing that she was in either place. Or what if she was run off the road a few miles away? Lots of questions.

Propane guy does seem pretty reliable doesn't he? He stated what he saw that day... didn't embellish it, didn't say he actually saw TH.... and now knowing that only a few vehicles go by around that time on any given day, it's just more believable, but lets be honest..... they didn't investigate this case very well LOL Maybe it was a customer that was there that day?

Also... the 4:35 call, was never answered, and most likely went to VM but was not even long enough to leave a message.... so I don't think he ever asked her to come back and take another picture. Also.... I don't think she would encourage anyone to go through AutoTrader because she actually made more money doing a "hustle shot", which is when they contact her directly.

AutumnDawn ~ we have discussed the handling of the bones, burn site in the bonfire thread and/or the bones thread I totally agree with you about the handling of the remains, the "crime scene", everything about it was just so wrong. IMO

 

[Sarah]

Sarah ~ I agree about the cell records. They would have to place her at her residence, or even Green Bay I think to create an "air tight" anything. There is just no scenario that I can come up with where it would ping in those places if SA has possession of her phone at that time. I think, but not sure, even Zipperer's was close enough to Avery's, that it wouldn't be a for sure thing that she was in either place. Or what if she was run off the road a few miles away? Lots of questions.

Frustrating isn't it?
I'd really love to know where those tower pings place her.
At the moment I'm still not seeing anything to change my opinion that SA is the most likely culprit, but I agree - if the towers place her at home or even a significant distance away from Avery's, then there's no plausible scenario IMO whereby he was the killer and I'll happily retract my earlier opinions!

Propane guy does seem pretty reliable doesn't he? He stated what he saw that day... didn't embellish it, didn't say he actually saw TH.... and now knowing that only a few vehicles go by around that time on any given day, it's just more believable, but lets be honest..... they didn't investigate this case very well LOL Maybe it was a customer that was there that day?

I've thought from the beginning that the circumstances of his sighting were reliable and after the testimony was released it completely sealed my thoughts on it.
Of course it's possible that it was another customer, but it seems a pretty big coincidence that somebody else was there at that time on that day in a similar vehicle and I find it hard to believe that nobody has come forward with that information either at the time or now with all the current publicity.
You'd also think that there would be customer records at the salvage yard that LE should have followed up on.
Regardless of SA's guilt in all this, there are a LOT of loose ends that don't seem to have been investigated. Seems LE didn't learn anything from the first time and still had the blinkers on when it came to SA.

Also... the 4:35 call, was never answered, and most likely went to VM but was not even long enough to leave a message.... so I don't think he ever asked her to come back and take another picture. Also.... I don't think she would encourage anyone to go through AutoTrader because she actually made more money doing a "hustle shot", which is when they contact her directly.

Sorry Missy, I don't think I phrased that very well.
I know the 4:35 call wasn't answered and in a scenario where SA is guilty I suspect that call was either to ensure the phone had been effectively disabled or to locate the phone so that he could dispose of it.
What I meant was when he was put on the spot to explain the purpose of the call maybe he drew on something that had actually happened rather than trying to invent a story out of thin air.

Purely speculative, but I think it's plausible for him to have asked about the other car in person when she was on site to photograph the minivan and for whatever reason she initially declined but went back later. IMO there are lots of reasons that she may have had conflicted feelings about taking a direct booking in those circumstances.

> Financially. Of course it makes sense for her to take a direct booking. She's just getting on the road with her own business and it would be foolish to turn down work, especially if she's being paid directly rather than after AutoTrader have taken their cut.
> Timing. If (and I don't believe this) she still had to fulfill the Zipperer appointment after leaving Avery's then she may not have had time to fit in another car but may have agreed to pop back later.
> Safety. If she was uneasy around Avery she may have preferred to keep their professional relationship at arm's length and only deal with that particular client via a third party (i.e. AutoTrader)
> Professional Ethics. We don't know the specifics of her contract with Autotrader, but I'd imagine that they'd discourage (if not prohibit) photographers from entering into direct contracts with clients for further work while they were out on an Autotrader job.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I tend to agree with you ;-) that she was at Zipperer's after, because we know that she called at 2:12 and left a message stating she was having trouble's finding their place. Did she give up and go to Avery's hoping she would get a call back?

As for anyone's testimony..... there are so many issues with it all LOL We have to not believe some testimony to believe others.... for example, propane guy and bus driver say 3:30-3:40. Then if we look at statements from early in the investigation.... it just makes the whole afternoon cloudy, Bobby not home... Bobby home and sleeping, etc.

But wouldn't that mean that she had talked to someone at Zipperer's to get better directions? I wonder if they checked Zipperer's cell phone and landline records.

 

[missy1974]

No, I don't think she did BCA, because Zipperer's didn't even hear the message until later in the evening IIRC... but she could have left, hoping to get a call back, she didn't, so maybe she went back and was able to find it that time. I do remember JZ testifying (or was it in her statement?) that TH said something about being lost. I don't know what to think at this point BCA LOL Everything about this case seems to have way too many unanswered questions IMO

And I doubt they checked Zipperer's cell/landline records..... but I guess anything is possible LOL

 

[Wendy101]

Wait! Wasn't this phone tampered with? How can we trust anything on the phone .. Anything could have been deleted

 

[Limaes]

Teresa got lost for a bit on her way to the Zs, phoned them, then arrived soon after to find Mrs Z in the front yard. She finished the job there then left and spoke to Auto Trader telling them she was on her way to the Avery's...she was never heard from again.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

 

[Hippiemomof5]

Wait! Wasn't this phone tampered with? How can we trust anything on the phone .. Anything could have been deleted

I'm confused. The phone was found burned in the Janda burn barrel. Any pings before it was turned off or burned are still very important and could possibly give us more information.