POLL ADDED Connect The Dots-Working theories thread #2

[nonfictionrocks]

Yes. You said it better. So if you answered the poll, you would make us go from 3 to 4.

ETA: Hello 4!

Okay, I answered but for the record, it now says 6! :thumb:

 

[cluciano63]

Ugh, I am watching a show now about the disappearance of a young woman some years ago and LE knew who was guilty but just could not find a way to prove it or to charge this guy with anything...it took them more than 7 years to come up with enough to charge him...(Shannon Melendez case...this creep burned up her body after killing her.) And even after all of those many years, the case they finally presented was pretty much circumstantial, fortunately they convicted him. Just makes my skin crawl to think that this case could drag on while LE seeks enough evidence.

 

[liz b.]

Those 3 of us who believe Kyron was either abducted (by anyone other than TH, DS or accomplice) or is still at the school/surrounding area of school, are you feeling as though Kyron will be found the first week of school?

You raise an interesting question. I'll just say that I think it would be a great relief if he was found then. But,sadly,no, I don't think Kyron will be found for a very long time....

All JMO

 

[cluciano63]

But if Kyron is near the school, he is obviously well-hidden and not likely to be found easily. Professionals searched for him there, I think quite thoroughly. I don't think it is more likely he will be found sooner rather than later if he is near the school or elsewhere, sadly. One day, by accident, perhaps...unless of course Terri just sent him away someplace, which seems more and more unlikely with each passing hour.

 

[just]

...Who knows, but I think the two hours of country driving had more to do with TH trying to calm herself down, dealing with Kyron, and being in a panic, than it did trying to calm down a sick baby.

.... Just a thought -- I'm just trying to piece it together. I think the call to DeDe was a panic call. And I can't imagine DeDe would have anything to do with intentionally harming a child, but I think she would cover for TH if she was told it was accidental, and TH had called freaking out in a panic..."OMG, you have to help me... I didn't mean for this to happen, and will go to jail and I'll never see my daughter or my son again...!"

By the way, I hope my computer is never searched. Because now I have looked up anti-freeze, and undetectable poisons.

We need some more information!! I'm about to chew my own arm off.:crosseyed:

I agree that the driving around was to calm herself down. I'm thinking that if he is deceased, he is in Forest Park. It seems logical to me and those of us who are local realize how enormous that place is. My guess is she drove into one of those trail head locations, parked, did whatever she was going to do - and left. I distrust the effectiveness of cadaver dogs because of the Ward Weaver case and how they didn't pick up on those poor girls buried - one in his shed, the other under cement. He gave them permission to search and they didn't find them.

She then zipped around to various places to create alibis and confusion of her whereabouts, and to calm down and call her buddy DDS. (All of this is IMHO of course).

I'm thinking that TH can't believe she hasn't been caught and at this point has justified that she *had* to kill/give away Kyron because of KH, or that she has convinced herself she never did it at all. As I've stated before, I also believe like OJ, she's a 'oh yeah then prove it' type personality and doesn't exactly care that people know she's guilty but is angered that if they're too stupid to have evidence, they're too stupid to put her away.

Her face at those pressers to me was scared to death (of being caught) and trying to watch the others for how to react as a grieving person because she had no clue.

Second more hopeful theory: I still don't put it past her to have pre-planned a hand-off to an Elizabeth Smart type kidnapper or kidnappers (remember that loon that kidnapped ES had a female accomplice - so druggie/cult/insane people). She could have found someone like that at our Saturday Market - no phone call required as they probably don't own one - and groomed them for a hand off. Kyron could be wearing a male burka and walking around Washington or who knows where as we speak. Let's hope he's okay and will be home soon.

 

[For_Love_of_Kyron]

Does anyone else think that Kyron's smile in the science fair picture looks weird? Looking at the other pictures of him, his smile is so big and bright that you can see his happiness in his eyes. That is missing from this particular picture. Something is just not the same IMO.

I think it's that beautiful smiling face in that last science fair picture of him that made me become so attached to this boy, and this case. It's the reason I cannot get this innocent child out of my head, the reason I cry for this lost little boy everyday. Standing in front of that project... such a great big smile, the glint in his eyes.... so proud of his display at the science fair.... So relaxed and calm.
And in just hours... He's gone, disappeared. No more smiling, happy, proud Kyron.
He reminds me of an older version of my own happy little boy. They have similar hair color, the same color eyes, and wear glasses that look almost identical. They have a very similar smile, and in many of the pictures of Kyron growing up, I can see my son. In fact, in a number of cases I have near identical pictures to the ones taken of him. My little boy will turn 5 exactly 1 week before Kyron's 8th birthday.
I know how he would feel seeing something he worked so hard on up on display for everyone to admire. It would be a happy day indeed.

It was supposed to be a happy day.
That smile should have stayed all day.

But, instead... he's gone.

It's not because the happiness is missing from the picture that I find it so devastating. It's because the happiness is so evident.

That picture absolutely breaks my heart, every time I look at it.

 

[cluciano63]

I do think it is a smile that resulted from a "smile, Kyron, I'm taking a picture now."

 

[SacreBleu]

I'm working on a theory, but need some more information. Does anyone know if the Horman truck has underseat or under floorboard storage that might accomodate a child Kyron's size? That said, and after thinking about it a bit more, that might not even have been necessary, if: TH did away with Kyron between 8:45-9:00 am and "stored" him in the truck; got her alibi for 9:00 - 10:00 set; got nervous and did drive around for an hour; went to the gym; got home at 12:45. Kaind did not arrive home until 2:00. That gave her over an hour to dispose of the body - wherever. Perhaps, even on their property? What am I missing, timewise?

 

[PDXMom]

I'm working on a theory, but need some more information. Does anyone know if the Horman truck has underseat or under floorboard storage that might accomodate a child Kyron's size? That said, and after thinking about it a bit more, that might not even have been necessary, if: TH did away with Kyron between 8:45-9:00 am and "stored" him in the truck; got her alibi for 9:00 - 10:00 set; got nervous and did drive around for an hour; went to the gym; got home at 12:45. Kaind did not arrive home until 2:00. That gave her over an hour to dispose of the body - wherever. Perhaps, even on their property? What am I missing, timewise?

I think that's feasible, timewise, but if he was deceased in the truck for any amount of time, wouldn't the forensics team be able to detect something? Even if it's his clothing fibers in an unlikely part of the truck? I'm interested to hear what others think. I keep coming back to the truck too. But in my scenario, TH got so irritated at baby K being fussy (maybe even throughout the night before) that one misstep from Kyron unleashed her rage and she struck him or slammed the door & knocked him out. Or something. But then there should be evidence of that in truck, shouldn't there?

 

[Jade2010]

I keep remembering

- The Skyline groundskeeper who said he saw children outside the school, by the door, that I think was close to Kyron's classroom, and they were playing.

- I see the aerial photograph in the Skyline Elementary School thread and this confirms for me that Kyron's room is close to that door and I think that is the same door the groundskeeper saw the children playing outside of.

- Does that door lock automatically behind you if you open it? If you go outside it and come back in, will it let you? Or will you have to walk around to another way into the school?

- And if this did happen and Kyron couldn't get back in the door, would his path lead him past a person who saw opportunity to grab him and put him in his vehicle? Would this path have led him toward the parking lot (filled with people at the science fair) to get back into the building.

Someone could have taken Kyron in this scenario or - Kyron is still at the school/school grounds becuase all it takes is one person who is searching one particular area of the school/school grounds (who thinks oh this kid has been abducted) who doesn't give all his/her effort to search his 'assigned' area.

credited to October

credited to Ruby Red
Janitor Bill Tandy walks past Kyron Horman's classroom at Skyline Elementary School in the early hours of June 7, 2010.

 

[gwenabob]

I keep remembering

- The Skyline groundskeeper who said he saw children outside the school, by the door, that I think was close to Kyron's classroom, and they were playing.

- I see the aerial photograph in the Skyline Elementary School thread and this confirms for me that Kyron's room is close to that door and I think that is the same door the groundskeeper saw the children playing outside of.

- Does that door lock automatically behind you if you open it? If you go outside it and come back in, will it let you? Or will you have to walk around to another way into the school?

- And if this did happen and Kyron couldn't get back in the door, would his path lead him past a person who saw opportunity to grab him and put him in his vehicle? Would this path have led him toward the parking lot (filled with people at the science fair) to get back into the building.

Someone could have taken Kyron in this scenario or - Kyron is still at the school/school grounds becuase all it takes is one person who is searching one particular area of the school/school grounds (who thinks oh this kid has been abducted) who doesn't give all his/her effort to search his 'assigned' area.

credited to October

Kyron's classroom is at the front of the school where the marker is. The flowerboxes were toward the back of the school along the upper path overlooking the soccer field.

The LS did not say he saw kids come out to play. He also did not say the children were unattended by an adult. He said he saw them come out and look at the flower boxes and he hoped they would not come down to the field.

I do not know for sure, but I suspect those side doors are kept locked during the school day so that people cannot enter, but can exit.

If a child went out and could not get back in, I think the front door at the center would be the way back in. However, it does not make sense to me that the back doors, near the covered play area would be kept locked all the time. I can't imagine all the kids would have to traipse around the school to the front every time just to return from recess. One of those back doors might be kept unlocked as well. But I don't really know for sure. Just conjecture.

 

[cluciano63]

I think that's feasible, timewise, but if he was deceased in the truck for any amount of time, wouldn't the forensics team be able to detect something? Even if it's his clothing fibers in an unlikely part of the truck? I'm interested to hear what others think. I keep coming back to the truck too. But in my scenario, TH got so irritated at baby K being fussy (maybe even throughout the night before) that one misstep from Kyron unleashed her rage and she struck him or slammed the door & knocked him out. Or something. But then there should be evidence of that in truck, shouldn't there?

I think it is possible that if Kyron were deceased and in the truck for an hour or so, it might not be detected, but someone with knowledge of cadaver dogs or anatomy might know for sure. Fibers, hairs, etc, would not be that unusual in the family truck. Terri being at the first market before 9:12 just confuses me greatly, as I do believe this could have been an act of rage, but can't see where Kyron would be at that time at all. And I also don't see Kyron getting into some other vehicle that morning and leaving with someone else at Terri's request. So in other words, I am completely lost.

 

[Etilema]

I keep remembering

- The Skyline groundskeeper who said he saw children outside the school, by the door, that I think was close to Kyron's classroom, and they were playing.

- I see the aerial photograph in the Skyline Elementary School thread and this confirms for me that Kyron's room is close to that door and I think that is the same door the groundskeeper saw the children playing outside of.

- Does that door lock automatically behind you if you open it? If you go outside it and come back in, will it let you? Or will you have to walk around to another way into the school?

- And if this did happen and Kyron couldn't get back in the door, would his path lead him past a person who saw opportunity to grab him and put him in his vehicle? Would this path have led him toward the parking lot (filled with people at the science fair) to get back into the building.

Someone could have taken Kyron in this scenario or - Kyron is still at the school/school grounds becuase all it takes is one person who is searching one particular area of the school/school grounds (who thinks oh this kid has been abducted) who doesn't give all his/her effort to search his 'assigned' area.

credited to October

credited to Ruby Red
Janitor Bill Tandy walks past Kyron Horman's classroom at Skyline Elementary School in the early hours of June 7, 2010.

According to page 8 of this document:

http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools/skyline/files/school-skyline/Parent_Handbook_2008-Final.pdf

"For security purposes, only the main entrance and East
door will be unlocked during school hours."

I believe the door that you are referring to is the north door. So presumably it would be locked on the outside, as you suggest.

 

[MarieFaith]

Kyron's classroom is at the front of the school where the marker is. The flowerboxes were toward the back of the school along the upper path overlooking the soccer field.

The LS did not say he saw kids come out to play. He also did not say the children were unattended by an adult. He said he saw them come out and look at the flower boxes and he hoped they would not come down to the field.

I do not know for sure, but I suspect those side doors are kept locked during the school day so that people cannot enter, but can exit.

If a child went out and could not get back in, I think the front door at the center would be the way back in. However, it does not make sense to me that the back doors, near the covered play area would be kept locked all the time. I can't imagine all the kids would have to traipse around the school to the front every time just to return from recess. One of those back doors might be kept unlocked as well. But I don't really know for sure. Just conjecture.

I just want to say that at the elementary school where I subbed for several years, the playground was way in the back down a hill. (This is a mountainous area.) And, yes, the back doors were always locked. You could go out the back and side doors, but not back in unless you had a key. And only certain teachers had keys. So, it was not at all unusual after recess for the students to walk all the way around the school and re-enter through the front door. It was not a big deal to the students...anything that prolonged outdoor time was just fine with them.

My youngest child was a student there from 1st through 5th grade, and even though this was a small town/low crime area, I would have been uncomfortable if things had been any other way.

 

[Jade2010]

Can someone direct me to a photo where I can see the flower beds that the groundskeeper said the kids were looking at? It seems to me he meant the door by Kyron's classroom and couldn't that be called the 'back' of the shcool if you are the groundskeeper mowing the soccer field? How would he see children in the 'back' of the school if he is at the soccer field?

“It seemed like just a pretty normal day,” he said. “It was kind of damp and wet. It had been wet for a while and the fields were hard to mow. (I) noticed that there was some children that came out the back door, and I thought, ‘please don’t come down and play soccer.’ But they came out and looked at some plants that were in the raised bed.”

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100582364.html

 

[cypress]

All of this is IMHO, and I'm talking/typing this out along with you in the hope of finding an answer.

Accident of rage -- Where did it happen? If it happened inside the school, then Terri had to either coax an upset and/or injured Kyron outside while wrangling baby K, doing all this without being seen, or she had to maneuver an unconscious/injured Kyron out of the school without being seen. This is extremely unlikely, IMHO. If an accident happened outside of the school, such as her backing over him, I don't believe her automatic reaction would be an elaborate plan and the staging of alibis. Also, IMHO, there would be forensic evidence in and on the truck as well as in the parking lot of the school.

IMHO, I don't think this is an accident, at least not one committed by Terri. If Terri did this, it had to be planned, especially given the precision of what many consider her alibis. IMHO, Terri loves Kyron, and if she accidentally killed him, in a rage or by accident, she wouldn't have been able to converse with Andrea at FM in such a calm, unaffected manner. Her timeline is too tight for her to have accidentally killed Kyron and to have the presence of mind to mostly alibi out her day.

It has occurred to me that another parent could've hit Kyron in the parking lot, but again, would the first reaction to running over child be to pick up a lifeless body, put it in your vehicle and discard it? No screaming? No hesitation? I find this unlikely.

A stranger predator as a theory is also difficult for me to fully wrap my brain around. I can believe a SO saw the sign outside the school and decided to test the waters, but again, there's the issue of being seen. Skyline is a small school with a small and central parking lot, and even if planned it would've been difficult to carry out unseen. I don't have a problem with the theory of a SO doing this, but a stranger to the school complicates it, because of the physical logistics. SOs typically get a thrill off this kind of thing, but they don't want to be caught, either. There would've been no easy, private way to remove Kyron from the school, and while the Science Fair created opportunity there were simply too many variables, not at an acceptable risk to a stranger SO, IMHO.

The theory I most favor is a person familiar with and to the school whose background is unknown either because he hasn't been caught offending before or because LE and school officials are unaware of it. I firmly believe the latter, as crimes like these escalate. I believe Kyron was incapacitated at the school and wheeled out of the school in a trashcan or removed in some other container whose presence was familiar to the school and therefore wouldn't have been thought odd, and that's the reason no one can remember anything out of the ordinary -- because how Kyron was removed from the school was by very ordinary means. I believe Kyron was assaulted and killed off school grounds, and he will not be found unless LE shifts the focus of their investigation or until another child is killed and either a trophy from Kyron is found among the SO's possessions or the SO will confess to Kyron's murder and probably others.

 

[Jack]

But if Kyron is near the school, he is obviously well-hidden and not likely to be found easily. Professionals searched for him there, I think quite thoroughly. I don't think it is more likely he will be found sooner rather than later if he is near the school or elsewhere, sadly. One day, by accident, perhaps...unless of course Terri just sent him away someplace, which seems more and more unlikely with each passing hour.

IMO, Kyron could still be near the school. He may be being held in someone's home or outbuilding. Or he may have just not been found. I was reading something about how searchdogs sometimes will alert on a scent and if the handler misinterprets or sees an animal carcass and assumes the alert was based on the animal carcass rather than another source then they can be within feet of the search object and still miss it.

 

[Jade2010]

Kyron's classroom is at the front of the school where the marker is. The flowerboxes were toward the back of the school along the upper path overlooking the soccer field.

Is Kyron's classroom where the orange icon dilly is? Thanks.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I think that's feasible, timewise, but if he was deceased in the truck for any amount of time, wouldn't the forensics team be able to detect something? Even if it's his clothing fibers in an unlikely part of the truck? I'm interested to hear what others think. I keep coming back to the truck too. But in my scenario, TH got so irritated at baby K being fussy (maybe even throughout the night before) that one misstep from Kyron unleashed her rage and she struck him or slammed the door & knocked him out. Or something. But then there should be evidence of that in truck, shouldn't there?

Hiya PDXmom, not sure if you've gotten your answer about forensics in the truck, but I didn't see anyone answering on this thread so I'll share with you what little that I know...

I am almost certain that it was butterfly1978 that researched some info about forensics such as cadaver dogs and what amount of time a deceased body must have been present for a cadaver dog to be able "hit on it" giving a positive affirmation that yes, there was a deceased body[in the truck for instance as we are talking about here].. The info she found was remarkable...
2 minutes is the answer! A dead body being in the truck for ONLY 2 mins, that's just 120 seconds and a cadaver dog will be able to pick up on the "scent of death"

I found that truly amazing and was shocked. I would have thought the amount of time necessary would have been ALOT longer, like several hours is what I was thinking...

I do not know the specific thread where butterfly1978 posted this tidbit of info that she'd found[I am almost 100% positive that it was her that posted the info]

I'll see if I can find it and I'll edit this post and add a link to where you or anyone interested can see this "informative" info....

BTW- The post I am looking for not only mentioned the 2 min cadaver dog info but also had mention of the "death band" on the hair and wondering how long it took for the "death band" to appear on the shaft of the hair...
So if anyone knows off hand what and where this post is please feel free to help by posting a link to it... TIA

ETA~ Nevermind I researched and found the info and posted the info and link in my post below.. Take a min to read the article. It really is quite remarkable what these dogs are capable of doing and the accuracy is "off the charts"...

 

[PDXMom]

Hiya PDXmom, not sure if you've gotten your answer about forensics in the truck, but I didn't see anyone answering on this thread so I'll share with you what little that I know...

I am almost certain that it was butterfly1978 that researched some info about forensics such as cadaver dogs and what amount of time a deceased body must have been present for a cadaver dog to be able "hit on it" giving a positive affirmation that yes, there was a deceased body[in the truck for instance as we are talking about here].. The info she found was remarkable...
2 minutes is the answer! A dead body being in the truck for ONLY 2 mins, that's just 120 seconds and a cadaver dog will be able to pick up on the "scent of death"

I found that truly amazing and was shocked. I would have thought the amount of time necessary would have been ALOT longer, like several hours is what I was thinking...

I do not know the specific thread where butterfly1978 posted this tidbit of info that she'd found[I am almost 100% positive that it was her that posted the info]

I'll see if I can find it and I'll edit this post and add a link to where you or anyone interested can see this "informative" info....

BTW- The post I am looking for not only mentioned the 2 min cadaver dog info but also had mention of the "death band" on the hair and wondering how long it took for the "death band" to appear on the shaft of the hair...
So if anyone knows off hand what and where this post is please feel free to help by posting a link to it... TIA

Hi there, SmoothOperator! (I always sing Sade when I see your screen name)
Thanks, and yes, I do recall someone providing the great info on what the dogs can detect. Truly amazing. The death band, I vaguely recall as well. I'd love to read through all of it again.