Travis Alexander and Jodi Arias - What do you believe?

[Chanler]

I seem to remember a request for a Psych Eval s ome time back, wish we could see the results!!! Ted Bundy did a good job defending himself because he was a pre-law student right? I think he also worked as a DV or VCA counselor along with Ann Rule for a time. He had experience with the legal system and was actually very intelligent. I don't think Jodi wants to represent herself, more than likely the last attorney would not allow her to call the shots.

Hi, Knox; I'm sure that several of us here would be willing to pool money to see that evaluation!

You're so right about Bundy: He was a bright, methodical sociopath who tended to view situations beyond his homicidal obsession in a very logical way. And, you're right, he did work with Ann Rule at crisis clinic during part of his killing spree.

I think that Jodi is different; her focus is very personal; Bundy was quite content to kill strangers. He actually viewed himself as a predator; almost operating like an animal of prey picking off sheep from the edge of herd.

Travis's murder scene was a mess of emotion. In retrospect, it seems that Jodi had time to clean it up, remove the palm print, the camera, and other incriminating evidence; and perhaps even stage a fake robbery. She didn't; even though she habitually presents herself as a picture of composure. (In fact, her apparent stoicism is one of the reasons that caused distrust among Travis' friends and ultimately suspicion.)

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Hi, Knox; I'm sure that several of us here would be willing to pool money to see that evaluation!

You're so right about Bundy: He was a bright, methodical sociopath who tended to view situations beyond his homicidal obsession in a very logical way. And, you're right, he did work with Ann Rule at crisis clinic during part of his killing spree.

I think that Jodi is different; her focus is very personal; Bundy was quite content to kill strangers. He actually viewed himself as a predator; almost operating like an animal of prey picking off sheep from the edge of herd.

Travis's murder scene was a mess of emotion. In retrospect, it seems that Jodi had time to clean it up, remove the palm print, the camera, and other incriminating evidence; and perhaps even stage a fake robbery. She didn't; even though she habitually presents herself as a picture of composure. (In fact, her apparent stoicism is one of the reasons that caused distrust among Travis' friends and ultimately suspicion.)

It would be interesting to see what the evaluation has to say that's for sure. I wonder if it will come up during her trial. She is definitely not Ted Bundy. I remember reading an article, where Ann Rule said that Ted Bundy would walk her to her car after work because you didn't know what kind of weirdos were out there...and all that time he was on a killing spree.

I'm sure she's hoping she gets a male lawyer this time around, because no doubt she'll think she can manipulate him with her sweet demeanour. I think the only person that believes her story is herself and I'd hate to have to try and defend her in court.

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Again her story changes:

...the defendant told the police that the victim was unconscious after being shot but then crawled around and was stabbed."

I thought she said that she originally claimed that she didn't see what happened to Travis?

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3846408.pdf

 

[Knox]

Finally some DETAILS!!!! Thanks for posting!! Be back later ...

 

[Chanler]

Again her story changes:

...the defendant told the police that the victim was unconscious after being shot but then crawled around and was stabbed."

I thought she said that she originally claimed that she didn't see what happened to Travis?

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3846408.pdf

Hi, Nobodyzgirl; great discovery! On her TV interview, Jodi said this:

"I heard a really loud pop. And the next thing I remember, I was lying next to the bathtub and Travis was screaming.....”

Then later, after she leaves the bedroom where she was left, apparently unattended and unmanacled:

“I saw Travis was on the floor in his bathroom on all fours. As soon as this guy left, I just got up and I charged her. And I ran straight down the hallway. And right before she could turn around even and see what was going on, I shoved her really hard. And she fell over him.”

[Then this summary: Jodi says the woman was armed with a knife, but can only “assume” the woman stabbed Travis.] “I didn’t see her stabbing him. He had some blood all over the floor. And there was some just coming down on his arms and on his hand, his right hand. I started pulling on Travis. And I said, ‘Come on, come on, come on.’ He finally just said, ‘I can’t.’ And then he said, ‘I can’t feel my legs.’

http://www.hollywoodcelebgossips.co...rias-is-travis-alexander-killer-photos-video/

On the video, as I see it described and remember it, Jodi says nothing beyond "the pop" about hearing or seeing Travis shot or, for that matter, stabbed. Perhaps it is the discrepancy that you noted and other differences that prompted a police official to say after the airing of the interview that they hadn't heard that story before.

Jodi's alibi was extremely primitive. When its walls began to crumble in the police interrogation, I imagine that she tried hard to cobble together a more presentable theory on the spot. When she told the story again to the TV interviewer, the story (as you discovered) changed again. (To me, the TV story is shaped less to strengthen her alibi than to make her role more dramatic and praise-worthy. She becomes a comic book heroine who risks her life trying to save poor Travis and then make a forceful exit.)

P.S. http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/124525
Interestingly, in an early newspaper interview, Jodi seems to be claiming that her DNA was found in the apartment only because she had spent time there. During the same interview, however, she indicates that during police questioning, she did break down and tell them:

"And while police won't release any details on why Arias is their suspect, the calm, soft-spoken woman told the Tribune on Friday from a phone in her jail cell that she is innocent.

"Originally, I just sort of, I didn't tell them a lot..." Arias said of her statements to detectives. "Then I just broke down and told them what I knew. It was almost like it was happening, like I was watching ... I was just very calm and rooted in my own innocence."

Arias declined to discuss all the reasons police believe she killed Alexander, but said that while investigators' evidence is "compelling enough," it is purely "speculation."

"None of it is solid proof that I committed a murder," Arias said.

Arias said detectives told her that they found her DNA inside Alexander's home, but said that her DNA "could've been found there just as easily as (Alexander's)" since she spent a lot of time over there

 

[Knox]

When you read the Court's rulings on the aggravated circumstances, it's pretty clear the State's asssertions were not applicable to the factor's that must be met in those they rejected. I hope this is not representative of the State's entire case.

From the minutes;

• The State did not argue that the defendant relished the murder. The evidence showed that the defendant photographed the victim in the shower shortly before attacking him and several inadvertent photos were taken during the attack due to the configuration of the digital camera. The Court finds that the State has waived relishing as a factor to support a finding of heinousness or depravity.

I think you were the one Chanler that said the wounded photos of Travis were accidental. What is meant by "configuration of the digital camera"?

I wonder if her statement that Travis said "I can't feel my legs" is actually one of the only true things she has said? As for the changes in her story; it's simple really, like we have all said, each time she learned about new evidence, she had to change her story to make it fit. I have never looked forward to a trial in my life, but I am on the edge of my seat to hear the defense presented in this case.

 

[Boyz_Mum]

Does the "configuration of the digital camera" mean it could have been set to take photos every 90 seconds or something like that? If the camera had been set up to take photos of a "shower scene", is it possible Jodi set up the camera as though she were going to go in there with him? I'm having trouble saying what I am trying to say and I am not too good with photography myself. (Does anyone "get" what I'm trying to say?)

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Does the "configuration of the digital camera" mean it could have been set to take photos every 90 seconds or something like that? If the camera had been set up to take photos of a "shower scene", is it possible Jodi set up the camera as though she were going to go in there with him? I'm having trouble saying what I am trying to say and I am not too good with photography myself. (Does anyone "get" what I'm trying to say?)

I think you mean that she set the camera on automatic timer, with the plan to have "shower scene" pictures of both her and Travis.

I really wonder what happened that fateful day to turn it into a murder. Was that plan all along and she was going to have one last "hoorah" with Travis before she shot and bludgeoned him to death, or did he turn her down and push her away and she got angry and shot him. I don't know what the law in Arizona is with respect to guns and how easy it is to register one in your name, though she did bring it with her, so one could assume that she was planning to kill him. From reading the minutes, it sounds more and more like a "crime of passion" with the amount amount of violence that was involved.

It will be interesting to see how her counsel handles this when it comes time to trial. She certainly does spin a different story each and every time new evidence appears, she must be the only one who believes her fantasy about the abductors and she can't even remember what she said beforehand, and how the discrepancies are so glaringly obvious to everyone except her.

 

[Boyz_Mum]

Thank you nobodyzgirl, you translated what I was trying to say! :clap:

Is the auto timer part of what's considered the "configuration of a digital camera"? If so, I do wonder if Jodi "set up" the camera to do what I'll call a "shower scene" and Travis could have said something like "I told you no, it's over..." and she went off the deep end, forgetting the camera was set to take photos (hence the blurry shots versus the clear shots of him in the shower?)

 

[Chanler]

When you read the Court's rulings on the aggravated circumstances, it's pretty clear the State's asssertions were not applicable to the factor's that must be met in those they rejected. I hope this is not representative of the State's entire case.

From the minutes;

• The State did not argue that the defendant relished the murder. The evidence showed that the defendant photographed the victim in the shower shortly before attacking him and several inadvertent photos were taken during the attack due to the configuration of the digital camera. The Court finds that the State has waived relishing as a factor to support a finding of heinousness or depravity.

I think you were the one Chanler that said the wounded photos of Travis were accidental. What is meant by "configuration of the digital camera"?

I wonder if her statement that Travis said "I can't feel my legs" is actually one of the only true things she has said? As for the changes in her story; it's simple really, like we have all said, each time she learned about new evidence, she had to change her story to make it fit. I have never looked forward to a trial in my life, but I am on the edge of my seat to hear the defense presented in this case.

Hi, Knox, my sense is that the defense is attempting to nitpick the charges down a bit by picking on individual adjectives. I think that this won't really effect the case; it might actually keep the jury on the main point: Jodi savagely slaughtered her friend. (When I read the statement, it even occured to me that Jodi's lawyers might actually be doing this to gain her trust: It shows that they're doing something and might make her more cooperative.)

The court statement about the pictures of Travis dying seems to confirm what Jodi said in an interview: She said that the police told her that last pictures were taken from the floor. I think that law enforcement indicated somewhere that there were dark and somewhat difficult to distinguish. I assume that's what "the configuration of the digital camera" means.

You might be right about "I can't feel my legs" might be true. Reading Jodi's account, however, I had the feeling that the entire account was made out of wholecloth. That two knife-wielding armed ninja-types would be unable to control or disable little Jodi after they had apparently already shot Travis seems to me completely unbelievable. I think that she put herself in the center of the action because the police already knew that her hands were cut up when she arrived at her destination. As for Travis' legs, I think that she wanted to show that she had made some effort to save his life.

 

[Knox]

Thanks all ... Have we discussed that the gun she used might have been in Travis's home? Maybe his or one of the roommate's? I guess that does not make much sense in relationship to the knife as it would also have to be in the home already too and we have not heard of any missing knives?

Chanler, I think Travis did say something about his legs to Jodi, it's where that heroic gesture of her's spawned from ... truth mixed with fiction.

 

[Chanler]

Thanks all ... Have we discussed that the gun she used might have been in Travis's home? Maybe his or one of the roommate's? I guess that does not make much sense in relationship to the knife as it would also have to be in the home already too and we have not heard of any missing knives?

Chanler, I think Travis did say something about his legs to Jodi, it's where that heroic gesture of her's spawned from ... truth mixed with fiction.

Hi, Knox, we haven't really heard much about the gun. Jodi asserted that the gun used didn't match a gun that she owned. Certainly, if she not only had a gun on her trip and carried it into his house, that would all but establish some possible premeditation. If it was Travis' gun, it would weaken the possibility that the Ninja pair were responsible: Surely they would have brought their own gun especially because that's apparently how they started the attack.

And, you're right, there is something especially vivid about that Travis statement. It's a haunting image.

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Hi, Knox, we haven't really heard much about the gun. Jodi asserted that the gun used didn't match a gun that she owned. Certainly, if she not only had a gun on her trip and carried it into his house, that would all but establish some possible premeditation. If it was Travis' gun, it would weaken the possibility that the Ninja pair were responsible: Surely they would have brought their own gun especially because that's apparently how they started the attack.

And, you're right, there is something especially vivid about that Travis statement. It's a haunting image.

Good points Chanler about the gun, though I have to admit, just because she says it's not the same gun that she owned, doesn't make it true, look at how many time she's lied. I also recall her saying she lost her gun, wonder if she reported it missing/lost? LOL If her gun is registered, I would assume that the LE would be able to verify easily enough whether she owned a gun similiar to the one used. I wonder if Travis owned a gun? It amazes me that she left such a mess at his home, with all types of evidence that she was there, though was able to dispose of a gun without it ever appearing, I do know that she drove a long distance, and no doubt there are tons of places to dump it, though it's amazing that is the only evidence she seems to have effectively destroyed.

 

[Chanler]

Good points Chanler about the gun, though I have to admit, just because she says it's not the same gun that she owned, doesn't make it true, look at how many time she's lied. I also recall her saying she lost her gun, wonder if she reported it missing/lost? LOL If her gun is registered, I would assume that the LE would be able to verify easily enough whether she owned a gun similiar to the one used. I wonder if Travis owned a gun? It amazes me that she left such a mess at his home, with all types of evidence that she was there, though was able to dispose of a gun without it ever appearing, I do know that she drove a long distance, and no doubt there are tons of places to dump it, though it's amazing that is the only evidence she seems to have effectively destroyed.

Hi, Nobodyzgirl, I agree completely. I mentioned Jodi's claim not because I believe it, but because it's practically the only thing we have heard about a gun. I think that illegally buying or trading for a gun isn't that difficult in Arizona.

I think that she left the house in such a disarray because it was such an overwhelming emotional experience. It seems to have followed a sequence: Sex; then pictures of Jodi nude in bed; pictures of Travis nude in the shower; then, apparently very shortly thereafter, bang, bang, bang. But this picture perfect execution went wrong: Jodi only got one shot off (Has there been any news of missed shots?); perhaps the bullet jammed: That might help account for Jodi's story about the Ninja's gun jamming.) There seems to have been a considerable struggle: Travis's arms had defensive wounds and Jodi had hand injuries that her friends saw. At some point, the effects of Travis' injuries gave Jodi the upper hand; he was probably on the floor when she administered many, if not most of the adrenaline-driven stab wounds. Perhaps he was still breathing when she cut his throat. Perhaps she was just too upset to stop.

With 27 stab wounds and a cut throat, this was no Ninja execution. But then, something striking happened: The blood was washed off the body, almost as if the killer is returning the adored murdered victim to some pristine state. The clean-up left the palm print and presumably other evidence, but made Travis look more presentable.

 

[Knox]

Hi, Nobodyzgirl, I agree completely. I mentioned Jodi's claim not because I believe it, but because it's practically the only thing we have heard about a gun. I think that illegally buying or trading for a gun isn't that difficult in Arizona.

I think that she left the house in such a disarray because it was such an overwhelming emotional experience. It seems to have followed a sequence: Sex; then pictures of Jodi nude in bed; pictures of Travis nude in the shower; then, apparently very shortly thereafter, bang, bang, bang. But this picture perfect execution went wrong: Jodi only got one shot off (Has there been any news of missed shots?); perhaps the bullet jammed: That might help account for Jodi's story about the Ninja's gun jamming.) There seems to have been a considerable struggle: Travis's arms had defensive wounds and Jodi had hand injuries that her friends saw. At some point, the effects of Travis' injuries gave Jodi the upper hand; he was probably on the floor when she administered many, if not most of the adrenaline-driven stab wounds. Perhaps he was still breathing when she cut his throat. Perhaps she was just too upset to stop.

With 27 stab wounds and a cut throat, this was no Ninja execution. But then, something striking happened: The blood was washed off the body, almost as if the killer is returning the adored murdered victim to some pristine state. The clean-up left the palm print and presumably other evidence, but made Travis look more presentable.

You have given me new food for thought Chanler.

The gun jammed or was otherwise not functional after the first shot. Travis was either unconscious or momentarily disabled ... uh-oh, now what? Do you think she had the knife in hand or within reach at that moment, or did she have to run downstairs to the kitchen and grab one, or did she carry a pretty substantial pocket knife in her purse? Does it make sense that if she had a gun or obtained one at the scene that she would also have a knife? Why when the gun would do the job all on it's own? Still not competely sold on her bringing the gun to the scene. This could have been formulated after they had sex and before the shower (she did not get the reaction she wanted from him).

This all goes back to whether or not this was pre-meditated, both scenerios make sense to me. If she brought the weapons she had a plan in advance and only one variable could have changed the outcome.... Had Travis told her that he would take HER on the cruise or I've missed you let's try and work this out, he would probably be alive today. I think it was a last ditch effort on her part either way.

The gun jamming on the Ninja killers ... SEE, there's that little grain of truth again. She weaves those grains into her lies ...

 

[Chanler]

You have given me new food for thought Chanler.

The gun jammed or was otherwise not functional after the first shot. Travis was either unconscious or momentarily disabled ... uh-oh, now what? Do you think she had the knife in hand or within reach at that moment, or did she have to run downstairs to the kitchen and grab one, or did she carry a pretty substantial pocket knife in her purse? Does it make sense that if she had a gun or obtained one at the scene that she would also have a knife? Why when the gun would do the job all on it's own? Still not competely sold on her bringing the gun to the scene. This could have been formulated after they had sex and before the shower (she did not get the reaction she wanted from him).

This all goes back to whether or not this was pre-meditated, both scenerios make sense to me. If she brought the weapons she had a plan in advance and only one variable could have changed the outcome.... Had Travis told her that he would take HER on the cruise or I've missed you let's try and work this out, he would probably be alive today. I think it was a last ditch effort on her part either way.

The gun jamming on the Ninja killers ... SEE, there's that little grain of truth again. She weaves those grains into her lies ...

Hi, Knox. As I don't think there is a significant time gap between his photographs in the shower and him dying on the ground. And I think he was nude when he was found dead. I think that ever since Psycho, people have realized that we are exceptionally vulnerable in the shower. If she was using the camera as a prop to control him or keep him relaxed rather than as a memento maker, it would help make more sense of why she ditched it.

I think that she came armed and armed with a plan.

I think that by then, she knew the chances of them getting back together were long past.

Your comment about him changing her mind at the scene did, however, remind me of a clear parallel: On the night before he assassinated the president, Lee Harvey Oswald spent the night with his estranged wife. In one sense, he needed to go there to retrieve his rifle, but he also asked her to move back with him. She refused. I'm sure that she's still wondering whether he was simply testing her or whether if she had said yes, JFK would have lived out his first term.

(Coincidentally, I'm reading a book now about the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand by Serbian nationalists, the murder that caused the domino tumble towards World War I. There are several similar "what if" moments, of events that might have changed everything.)

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Hi, Knox. As I don't think there is a significant time gap between his photographs in the shower and him dying on the ground. And I think he was nude when he was found dead. I think that ever since Psycho, people have realized that we are exceptionally vulnerable in the shower. If she was using the camera as a prop to control him or keep him relaxed rather than as a memento maker, it would help make more sense of why she ditched it.

I think that she came armed and armed with a plan.

I think that by then, she knew the chances of them getting back together were long past.

Your comment about him changing her mind at the scene did, however, remind me of a clear parallel: On the night before he assassinated the president, Lee Harvey Oswald spent the night with his estranged wife. In one sense, he needed to go there to retrieve his rifle, but he also asked her to move back with him. She refused. I'm sure that she's still wondering whether he was simply testing her or whether if she had said yes, JFK would have lived out his first term.

(Coincidentally, I'm reading a book now about the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand by Serbian nationalists, the murder that caused the domino tumble towards World War I. There are several similar "what if" moments, of events that might have changed everything.)

From the way I read the court minutes, I agree with you Chanler, it doesn't sound like there was a significant time gap between the shower pictures and the other picture taken from the floor. I also, think you are right when you say the gun jammed, that makes perfect sense and in order to finish what she started she stabbed him. Stabbing someone 27 times, you definitely need to have a lot of anger and passion in you, one would think. Does anyone recall if they have the knife in evidence?

I am sitting on the fence whether she went with the intention of killing him, or whether when she continued her advances (which is just my opinion) and he rejected her, she went into a rage, with the mentality of "if I can't have him then no one will".

 

[Chanler]

From the way I read the court minutes, I agree with you Chanler, it doesn't sound like there was a significant time gap between the shower pictures and the other picture taken from the floor. I also, think you are right when you say the gun jammed, that makes perfect sense and in order to finish what she started she stabbed him. Stabbing someone 27 times, you definitely need to have a lot of anger and passion in you, one would think. Does anyone recall if they have the knife in evidence?

I am sitting on the fence whether she went with the intention of killing him, or whether when she continued her advances (which is just my opinion) and he rejected her, she went into a rage, with the mentality of "if I can't have him then no one will".

Hi, Nobodyzgirl, thanks for your note. Shooting someone in or near a shower seems like the kind of careful plan a newbie killer might dream up: I think that Brian DiPalma, the director, said the two times we are most unprepared for attack are in a shower or in an elevator when the doors open. In her interview, Jodi emphasized that she was inexperienced with guns; perhaps the truth talking again. (My brother-in-law, an experienced hunter, once told me that inexperienced shooters frequently find ways to jam guns.)

You might be right about the two possibilities. I tend towards the premeditated from the start explanation. I almost think of her posing for him on the bed as the first part; in effect, loosening up for taking his picture in the shower.

I agree with you: The savagery of the attack; literally dozens of stab wounds and the complete throat slashing indicates either or both a crime of intense passion and/or a botched murder attempt that suddenly becomes frantic. Travis was so much bigger and stronger than Jodi that I suspect that she suddenly found herself in a situation quite different from the simple shower execution she planned.

One thing that argues that it was premeditated was that all the major wounds were on him; cuts on her hands (and I assume forearms) might be accounted for as him trying to wrest the knife from her or simply fend off stabbing. If it was suddenly improvised, his physical advantage would have come more into play. I think that she had both the gun and knife at hand when she attacked him.

I imagine that the forensics will tell the tale. I'm sure that Jodi and her lawyers are wondering right now whether they will allow to stand on her Ninja defense or, more likely, argue that Travis attacked and she killed him defending herself. (That would enable her to say that she drove into the desert shocked and terrified that nobody would believe her story.)

 

[Chanler]

Sorry for the consecutive entries. Some poster early on posted this photo album, which includes crime scene photographs, presumably taken after the cops had left with some of the evidence. I'm printing them again because they indicate how much more potential evidence there is and also how the murderer obviously thought more about cleaning Travis' cherished body than at removing evidence of her own crime.

http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z216/disneymom69/HOUSE/?start=all

 

[nobodyzgirl]

New Counsel appointed:

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/docs/Criminal/082009/m3857149.pdf

LET THE RECORD REFLECT on August 10, 2009, this Court ordered that new
Counsel be appointed to represent the defendant.

IT IS ORDERED appointing Victoria Washington and Kirk Nurmi as Defense Counsel
for all further proceedings.
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED affirming the Capital Case Management Conference set
for September 25, 2009 at 11:30 a.m. before Judge Duncan.

bbm: Interesting that the court ordered new counsel be appointed, wonder what's up with that