UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #17

[Marantz4250b]

At around 1pm, Letby had messaged her mum Susan about the Grand National, which was taking place that day.

She wrote: "Is dad betting on the Grand National? If so can he see which are greys and put a bet on for me please x"

LL initiated the bet from what I can see

Yeah, now you mention it I recall reading that now.

 

[esther43]

What we know about Minna.

She was in LL's early text messages, three days after death of baby D -

LL messaged Minna Lappalainen: "Work has been awful."
ML: "Oh dear. Staffing probe?"
LL: "We have had three unexpected deaths, transfer out, few sick ones, unit full. What I’ve seen has really hit me tonight."
ML: "Have you worked today?"
LL: "No, been off since Wednesday morning and now it has all hit me."
ML asks if LL tries "talking to a proper counsellor".
LL replies that she does not think she can.
ML: "Why not?"
LL: "I can't talk about it now...I can't stop crying...I just need to get it out of my system."
ML advises LL to think carefully what to do, before adding: "Maybe you need to take time off."
LL: "Work is always my priority. I won’t let it affect it. I just haven’t let myself cry over it until now. Once I’ve let it out my head will be clear."

In Aug 2015 LL messaged Minna asking if she was going to Salsa, on the day/eve after baby F was poisoned. LL had been texting another nurse that morning about her worries for baby F, and again that evening. She didn't mention it in her texts with Minna.

Minna was the shift-leader on the day of baby Q's vomiting and collapse, and went to help Mary when the alarm went off. She recorded in the nursing notes that after Q's collapse LL aspirated air from his stomach.

Prosecution - Given that Q was her designated baby and she aspirated the air, the prosecution says it is surprising that she did not make the nursing note yet she did make notes in other babies records at about the same time.

The prosecution asked Minna if LL had recorded observations for her other baby in room 1 at 8.30am, she would expect her to do observations again at 9am.

At the end of LL's shift -
Minna messages: 'Thank you for being a good friend today', adding a heart emoji.
LL: 'Don't need to thank me Minna, I'm always here for you. Please don't feel you're alone...'
ML: '...But really I'm really happy u were there for me....'
LL: 'Take care, hope you sleep well, see you tomorrow'.

LL messaged the doctor that evening asking if she should be worried about what Dr Gibbs was asking Mary, saying she'd told Mary and Minna at the desk that she was going to room 1.

On Monday when LL was told by the unit manager not to come in for her night-shift she messaged a different nurse colleague to discuss it. As far as has been reported she didn't message Mary or Minna to discuss it.


LL's text to Minna in June 2015 is similar to her text to the doc, a year and one day to the day in June 2016

LL to doc: I can't do this job if it's going to be like this. My head is a mess. Why is she ringing at this time. There must be a problem.
Doc: Lucy - you did nothing wrong at all. It is an odd time to ring, but you've had a rough few days and a good manager would realise that. There is no problem. I suspect my head is in about the same place. The management was appropriate and your recognition of an unwell baby was spot on. The care delivered was quick and accurate. I can't fault anything with your delivery of care to either baby last week. If there was anything I would have said so. Eirian knows you. Has there ever been a reason for you not to trust her?
LL: I can't talk about this now. Sorry, I just need a bit of time.
12 mins later:
LL: Sorry, that was rude. Felt completely overwhelmed & panicked for a minute. We all worked tirelessly & did everything possible, I don't see how anyone can question that. E has always been very supportive.
Doc: No it wasn’t rude. It was unexpected and that’s never nice. Ok now?
LL: I’m having a meltdown++ but think that's what I need to do. Anyway I’ll be ok. You have enough on your plate too.

This is such an interesting compilation. Thanks for putting it together. What did Minna mean about thanking LL for being there for her? Did LL write off something as 'complete' by Minna to avoid her getting into trouble with seniors around what happened with child Q?

 

[Marantz4250b]

How interesting it's a brand of whiskey. I find whiskey a bit of an old man's drink!
Could have flashbacks from unrelated event. Or maybe it was the favourite drink of someone involved in the case. All total speculation and jmo

It's going off on a bit of a tangent but it's weird how things go round in circles and things become "trendy" due to marketing and suchlike. I watched a documentary a week or so ago about a guy who was stabbed to death after a couple of young women got themselves into his life basically on the promise of sex in order to rob him of what they thought were expensive watches and some drugs, I think. Which was ironic as that was precisely what he'd just been released from prison for orchestrating!

Anyway, this is a young black guy, into his rap music and suchlike and I distinctly recall that some of their messages were about drinking and how much he, and they, were into brandy! I'm like wtf - a young black guy drinking an old white blokes drink! That really has to be the marketing achievement of the century, quite honestly! Totally blew my mind.

 

[DinerMite]

I didn't realise that LL had switched shifts which is why she was looking after Baby A:

"Letby replied with a reference to her covering for a colleague when she was on duty in the unit at the time of Baby A's death, writing: 'It's the last time I do you you a favour changing shifts! Ha ha!'

Her colleague responded: 'Yes, I did think that. But I'm sure the girls were glad you were there.'"

Not sure if that changes anything but, if guilty, it would suggest Baby A wasn't planned and it was more opportunistic?

 

[Dotta]

Initially I thought they were code names for the babies but she writes the initial of the babies name in her diary, not the initial of the codename or anything. Maybe she is just listing all her pets over the years or just writing random words down that's in her eyes view. Strange really, I really hope we get more info on this.

Diary might have been "official" while the notes were 100% personal for her eyes only.

I still think they referred to victims.

But, of course, I might be wrong.

JMO

 

[Marantz4250b]

I absolutely love Ferrero R chocolates
Rafaello!!! Mmmm

Yes, better than the regular ones, I think.

 

[DinerMite]

@Tortoise - Regarding your Minna post, it is quite evident that her 'go to' person changes. It appears to start with JJK who LL states doesn't understand, then we get to Minna who suggests therapy and LL brushes it off, then she goes for Doc Choc who appears to give her all she needs and she is "so relieved that it's [him] who has been there throughout"

 

[Tortoise]

I didn't realise that LL had switched shifts which is why she was looking after Baby A:

"Letby replied with a reference to her covering for a colleague when she was on duty in the unit at the time of Baby A's death, writing: 'It's the last time I do you you a favour changing shifts! Ha ha!'

Her colleague responded: 'Yes, I did think that. But I'm sure the girls were glad you were there.'"

Not sure if that changes anything but, if guilty, it would suggest Baby A wasn't planned and it was more opportunistic?

She knew 12 hours ahead that she would be working and twins were on the unit.

9.21am -
LL received a text asking her to work night shift.
LL: "Yes that's fine...is it busy?"
Colleague: "We have 3 on CPAP...twins last night...wanted six staff on."
LL: "No problem."

9.25am –
LL to a colleague: “I'm working tonight and tomorrow now as busy. Will just have a quiet one today. Slept well. They have 3 30wkers on CPAP."
Colleague: "It will calm down again soon then."

LL reply to another colleague: "I've been moved forward as busy. Doing tonight and tom."

 

[Dotta]

I didn't realise that LL had switched shifts which is why she was looking after Baby A:

"Letby replied with a reference to her covering for a colleague when she was on duty in the unit at the time of Baby A's death, writing: 'It's the last time I do you you a favour changing shifts! Ha ha!'

Her colleague responded: 'Yes, I did think that. But I'm sure the girls were glad you were there.'"

Not sure if that changes anything but, if guilty, it would suggest Baby A wasn't planned and it was more opportunistic?

If guilty

How cunning to sound as if she was doing a favour!
She seemed always on the alert to strike!

Never let the opportunity to pass!
Geez!!!

I reminds me of some addicts who always find the way to binge on their addictions.

JMO

 

[Sundial]

How interesting it's a brand of whiskey. I find whiskey a bit of an old man's drink!
Could have flashbacks from unrelated event. Or maybe it was the favourite drink of someone involved in the case. All total speculation and jmo

I’m not sure tbh, Bergerac is also red wine (from the Bergerac place), they (with the whiskey) are strange things to repeatedly write about though.
JMO

 

[Sundial]

"Ambassador, with these Ferrero Rocher you are really spoiling us".

Does anyone recall if it was Bergerac in that advert? I can’t remember tbh and could be completely wrong, but everytime I hear the discussion on Bergerac and how many times she wrote it, I just think of those chocolates dished out at Christmas (well, not just at Christmas tbh!!) and thinking; Jees she must really be partial to that red wine. It’s all I can think of lol
JMO

 

[ShireChe]

I’m not sure tbh, Bergerac is also red wine (from the Bergerac place), they (with the whiskey) are strange things to repeatedly write about though.
JMO

It is possible that Bergerac is a pet (maybe named by her dad, as Bergerac would be in his frame of reference) or a nickname for Kathryn De Beger

 

[Dotta]

well done!

I've got this for that note -

https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/resources/images/16683528/

Tigger LLetby :heart: LLetby

[black blotch covering the words 'I’m' ?] sorry I couldn’t save you. My best friend :heart: LL

[LOVE] Smudge

Today is your [birthday covered by black blotch] My best friend LL

Engage [space] I loved you [black ink heart] please help me <->

LL. [Tigger overwriting Love] was all we needed but time let us down

LOVE ^ LL. I can’t do this any more. LLetby

Please help me HELP HELP

Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown. Minna

HELP ME LOVE Please help me

Please help me [Minna squashed in gap] please help me. HELP ME [love hearts in red and black]

Smudge [redacted] LOVE HELP I don’t want to engage [redacted]

I loved you what more could I have done [redacted]. [redacted]

Keeping self to

[…] couldn’t [Tigger] I have been enough for [black blotch] self [redacted] HELP

Was I really that bad a friend/person that you could do that to me. Smudge. I don’t deserve th[blotch]

I loved you + I think you knew that. [redacted] minna [redacted]

And now I am the bad guy – I wanted you to stand by me but you didn’t

I can’t do this anymore. LLetby. I can’t do it anymore [^Smudge] Retrospectively Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown LOVE [red blotch]

Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown [v I loved you]

Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown [redacted]

Tigger [space] my best friend [redacted 3 words]

Bergerac Kathryn

Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown Lucy LLetby

My life is a joke

Kathryn de Beger Catherine [Chase?] Kathryn

Bergerac Kathryn [^what a joke] de Beger Karen Rees

Karen Rees Karen Rees [^what a joke] Hayley Cooper

I hate my life

I’ve tried my best but I can’t [space] How can life be this way.

It seems to me dr A might be a Tiger!
Wrrrr

That is "tigger"

 

[Sundial]

well done!

I've got this for that note -

https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/resources/images/16683528/

Tigger LLetby :heart: LLetby

[black blotch covering the words 'I’m' ?] sorry I couldn’t save you. My best friend :heart: LL

[LOVE] Smudge

Today is your [birthday covered by black blotch] My best friend LL

Engage [space] I loved you [black ink heart] please help me <->

LL. [Tigger overwriting Love] was all we needed but time let us down

LOVE ^ LL. I can’t do this any more. LLetby

Please help me HELP HELP

Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown. Minna

HELP ME LOVE Please help me

Please help me [Minna squashed in gap] please help me. HELP ME [love hearts in red and black]

Smudge [redacted] LOVE HELP I don’t want to engage [redacted]

I loved you what more could I have done [redacted]. [redacted]

Keeping self to

[…] couldn’t [Tigger] I have been enough for [black blotch] self [redacted] HELP

Was I really that bad a friend/person that you could do that to me. Smudge. I don’t deserve th[blotch]

I loved you + I think you knew that. [redacted] minna [redacted]

And now I am the bad guy – I wanted you to stand by me but you didn’t

I can’t do this anymore. LLetby. I can’t do it anymore [^Smudge] Retrospectively Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown LOVE [red blotch]

Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown [v I loved you]

Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown [redacted]

Tigger [space] my best friend [redacted 3 words]

Bergerac Kathryn

Lovewasallweneededbuttimeletusdown Lucy LLetby

My life is a joke

Kathryn de Beger Catherine [Chase?] Kathryn

Bergerac Kathryn [^what a joke] de Beger Karen Rees

Karen Rees Karen Rees [^what a joke] Hayley Cooper

I hate my life

I’ve tried my best but I can’t [space] How can life be this way.

Such a strange bizarre bunch of stuff to write imo; what I also don’t get is why she writes her name as many times as she does. Was she practicing or looking at her signature, were the police saying her handwriting or initials are on records etc, discussing with barrister on a phone call?
It’s also weird where she’s just writing “hello” on these notes too.
Moo

 

[Marantz4250b]

Such a strange bizarre bunch of stuff to write imo; what I also don’t get is why she writes her name as many times as she does. Was she practicing or looking at her signature, were the police saying her handwriting or initials are on records etc, discussing with barrister on a phone call?
It’s also weird where she’s just writing “hello” on these notes too.
Moo

The whole thing is deeply odd, to be honest. It's not the writings of someone who's mentally stable, imo. The question is, if she wasn't mentally stable when writing these, is it because of the stress of the investigation, her grievance and being suspended or was she like that prior, perhaps since very young?

 

[Sundial]

To me she's very much an enigma. We know so little about her (which, tbh, isn't surprising) but she just seems so different from what you'd expect someone to be like who'd been charged with horrendous crimes. I mean she's about a million miles from the Bev Allitt type, imo. Female murderers always seem to me to give off a definite vibe of utter lunacy and detachment from reality along with not really caring about the consequences to themselves - Joanne Dennehy, Aieleen Wornous, etc.

LL doesn't come over like that. At least in my opinion. If you try to disregard her current situation she doesn't really give the impression of being anything other than slightly odd, if you ask me. And, tbh, I'm not even sure that that's really true as many people are odd when compared to what polite society considers to be "normal". I've certainly dated for odder (and a few who could reasonably described as absolitely bat s*it crazy) in my time.

All MOO and just my random bored Saturday afternoon musings!

I’m not sure I could agree with all this. On one hand you make some good points, but I recall a case many years ago now in the uk where a woman in her 40s was charged with sexually abusing children in the nursery she worked at.
When the news broke, people were understandingly horrified, they didn’t believe it, said how truly wonderful she was at her job, kind, didn’t fit the “typical” look etc. The way they described her was so similar to what you mention her about LL, not the ‘typical’ type highly regarded by her colleagues and parents.
It turned out that she was in fact guilty and the utter shock and disbelief from her family, co-workers and parents of that was so awful. As you’d imagine.

That someone so sweet, seemingly flawless at the job etc, just like the evidence we have heard with this case; was actually indeed guilty of this awful crime. It’s thankfully a rareity, but it does happen even with the most “wonderful” adored of colleagues or care provider.

To think it doesn’t happen because of a pretty face, qualification or whatever would be very naive.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

I’m not sure I could agree with all this. On one hand you make some good points, but I recall a case many years ago now in the uk where a woman in her 40s was charged with sexually abusing children in the nursery she worked at.
When the news broke, people were understandingly horrified, they didn’t believe it, said how truly wonderful she was at her job, kind, didn’t fit the “typical” look etc. The way they described her was so similar to what you mention her about LL, not the ‘typical’ type highly regarded by her colleagues and parents.
It turned out that she was in fact guilty and the utter shock and disbelief from her family, co-workers and parents of that was so awful. As you’d imagine.

That someone so sweet, seemingly flawless at the job etc, just like the evidence we have heard with this case; was actually indeed guilty of this awful crime. It’s thankfully a rareity, but it does happen even with the most “wonderful” adored of colleagues or care provider.

To think it doesn’t happen because of a pretty face, qualification or whatever would be very naive.

JMO

100% agree.

How many times we read in the Press:

"Oh, he was such a nice man, always said Hello"

Of course, there are many, many variations to this response.

Ad nauseam.

JMO

 

[Sundial]

@Tortoise - Regarding your Minna post, it is quite evident that her 'go to' person changes. It appears to start with JJK who LL states doesn't understand, then we get to Minna who suggests therapy and LL brushes it off, then she goes for Doc Choc who appears to give her all she needs and she is "so relieved that it's [him] who has been there throughout"

Not forgetting Dr V where they chatted about emigration: she seemed to “go to” her for a while too.
jmo

 

[Sundial]

Does anyone recall if it was Bergerac in that advert? I can’t remember tbh and could be completely wrong, but everytime I hear the discussion on Bergerac and how many times she wrote it, I just think of those chocolates dished out at Christmas (well, not just at Christmas tbh!!) and thinking; Jees she must really be partial to that red wine. It’s all I can think of lol
JMO

Actually just thinking aloud to my own ramblings, it was Cognac!! I remember now; Cognac and Ferrero Roccher!!
This trial is taking everyone down a right rabbit hole!!!

 

[Sundial]

It is possible that Bergerac is a pet (maybe named by her dad, as Bergerac would be in his frame of reference) or a nickname for Kathryn De Beger

A frame of reference from her dad? How so?