AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #25

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Sound can travel oddly in wooded areas, too. If the neighbors across the street are talking in their back yard, at least 400 feet away, it sounds like it's coming from behind my house right under my windows. I can hear every word the next door neighbors on one side say, but can't even tell whether the neighbors on the other side, about the same distance away, are in their yard.

We hear gunshots all the time that sound very near but come from the other side of the wooded area, close to a mile away. Closer shots in the stream midway between, where hunting is allowed, are muffled.


Same here. I'm in a wooded area, but probably 1/2 mile from a Walmart and two shopping centers, an interstate about 1500 ft away, and a busy secondary road about 1000 ft away. We have hunters who hunt on our property. I rarely hear them shoot, but I can hear every gunshot at a turkey shoot at a bar about 1/4 mile away. I can't hear any conversation, or cars at any of my neighbors. I know I can hear if my MIL shoots a shotgun outside, but I doubt any of my other neighbors have weapons at all.
 
Wow. Under what conditions would there not be footprints? Heavy leaf covering leading up to the doorway? But how couldn’t there be prints in the entryway and house? Do certain rubber shoes leave ghost prints?

I know from our friend TrackerGD that shoeprints are a signature that can tell us a great deal about the Perp. How on earth could there be no prints? Did he take the time to remove them? Seems unlikely.
Wore shoe booties like the rug cleaning guys do?

Scratching my head.

Maybe there is a gravel walkway, or maybe LE walked over the footprints before they realized it.
 
Sheriff: Jayme Closs's parents victims of homicide; no gun found
Sheriff Chris Fitzgerald said Wednesday that he believed Jayme Closs was home when James and Denise Closs were shot to death based on evidence found at the scene and a 911 call placed early Monday morning.

"Some of it from that 911 call, and some of it part of that active investigation," Fitzgerald says.

This is a theoretical floor plan by AbbeyBabbey, an appraiser who has inspected, measured and sketched thousands of houses. Her rendition of a possible floor plan is based on her experience, her knowledge of Construction Industry Standards, known facts in this case and pictures/videos/aerial views of the house.

From Thread 13 AMBER ALERT - WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #13:

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Thank you for the link to the floor plan. I have been hoping to see one. I know it’s not a definitive plan, but it’s from someone with many years dealing with real estate.
 
I think parents were pretty smart grounded people... didn’t want jayme sleeping with phone... think they said her phone in kitchen...?? I still think perp waited James Denise home... try’s to kick or shoulder in door... James is there... immediate head shot... he’s down... Denise calls 911 takes step toward entry way to shut door or help James... boom second shot... not head shot but brutal due to weapon and proximity... she takes hit flings phone.. then bee lines to bathroom.. probably wounded and not long from there... after second shot perp is either on move to get jayme running outback or his accomplice is getting jayme..

Not sure completely... just think of perp takes 10 steps inside house and shots Denise inside it would leave evidence ..,

Dunno

One of the reasons I think there were two perps, a male and female, is because I can't see James going to the door unarmed if someone is trying to kick the door in. It would have taken a few kicks to bust in the door. I think it is more likely female knocked on the door and maybe said her car had broken down and cell phone was dead. James cracks it open to look and the male perp kicks in the door and shoots him. Denise and/or Jayme might have been trying to get out the other door when he shot Denise.
 
Does anyone find it of any worth that the family went from not saying a word to speaking quite a bit to the media now? Is this a tactic? Desperation?
 
Has there been any new information or statements from LE in the past week? I'm still trying to catch up. Has LE indicated that there is more than one perp involved? I noticed several references to there being more than one and just wondered if this was supported by a source or is just speculation.
From what I can tell there seems to be no new leads, and it's looking pretty hopeless at this point. Poor Jayme. Its not likely she will be found alive.

Any news on the two cars? Were there any more drivers that came forward or are they still not accounted for?

It is speculation. I do think it's a possibility, but LE has not indicated anything about the number of perps AFAIK.
 
Interesting. The neighbors don’t seem to be reliable witnesses. Just about everything they’ve said has been called into question.

If I were the defense (projecting to trial), I’d be asking where the neighbors were that night, what got them home at 10:30PM. They roll up the sidewalks at 9PM in the country. Most houses are pretty dark by then. Perhaps they were out to dinner, at a party . . . OK, had they been drinking? (Might as well be blunt)
 
Are there any cases that serve as precedence for this tactic? I'm open to being wrong, but it just doesn't seem like a logical tactic to me.

Matthew Hoffman | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

Matthew Hoffman, killed three during a home invasion. Brutally and with a serrated hunting knife. He also dismembered them and killed the family dog.

All while a 13yo girl was bound in the kitchen. She had no idea he had even killed her mother, brother and mothers friend. He then kidnapped the girl.

Police ran into Matthew at least twice (once during a search and once in a park) over the next several days and became suspicious of him. They never released this information to the public or said anything to the public about vehicles he was using. They simply followed him until something tipped them off that the girl was in the house. The next morning they went in and found both perp and victim (alive).

That's just one I know of, for sure off the top of my head and it's a short time line but I know there are others. If they have a POI and believe that POI can lead them to a missing child they won't put information out there that could lead to the person either killing the child or running before they have enough evidence to make an arrest.
 
Try not to laugh too hard at this sketch. It’s a ranch style bungalow I’m familiar with that was about 20-30 years old when I was last there 6 ish years ago. It’s front door. Small den or fam room to the right. Hallway leads to three beds on left and washroom at the end. Living room is big and there’s a deck behind it. Kitchen to the right. Basement stairs are off the kitchen. Not shown also off the kitchen are garage access, washroom and laundry.

Talking about the closs house made me wonder if their home was set up like the one I sketched maybe? The one I sketched didn’t have a walk out basement. Did the closs home?

If there was garage access off the kitchen and a washroom there maybe that’s how perp shot mom and escaped with Jayme?

Tempted to delete this post bc that sketch is horrible!!
 

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Assuming Jayme is with perp, that IS grounds for arrest, regardless of anything else he may have done and LE has always put the perp’s name and pic out if they know it, just like they show the car in Amber Alerts when they have that info. That is how these people are caught. Of course the would release his name and photo. Jmo
 
Thank you for the link to the floor plan. I have been hoping to see one. I know it’s not a definitive plan, but it’s from someone with many years dealing with real estate.

I do not (at all) agree with the proposed floor plan for quite a few reasons and generations of real estate, home construction/ engineering, rental properties and flipping experience in my family.

First, open floor plans weren't a thing at the time this house was built.

Second the large picture window on the front of the house to left is almost certainly the living room. This isn't a luxury home build that would put larger picture windows in a master bedroom. The big windows = living room in 90% of houses.

The proposed floor plan also puts two very different windows in the living room. One that is taller and double wide and one that is short and small. This is unlikely. If there were two windows in the living room on the same wall they would likely match.

Second, builders often avoid putting bedrooms over top of garages because it costs them more to do so. Insulation to keep the bedrooms warm and to reduce noise. It also usually means finishing the ceiling in the basement (which many builders don't do).

I think the odd placement of the deck off the east side of the house where I believe the bedrooms are located was done for practical and economical purposes as an add on (maybe when that permit was pulled that someone mentioned).

Previously the house had no exit aside a front door. Having been in these types of homes for both buying and selling purposes this is a huge deterrent and major inconvenience especially if the family has a dog (it means the dog is left to go out the front door for it's business or you have to go up/down steps to let them out).

The only other option would be to do a deck off of the back elevated second floor (likely kitchen, which I believe it centrally located or located to the back north side) which would be a costly endeavor and require a level of skill that would likely require a professional install (most states require that staircases on decks that are two stories tall have at least one landing which increases cost significantly, has to meet code regulations, etc.).

My guess is that the deck was built (maybe coinciding with getting Molly) and the door added at the end of the hallway leading to the bedrooms then because taking her out got to be a pain in the butt. It's an odd placement but would have given that second exit they needed and allowed James to do the work himself at a significant savings.
 
I've never taken the 4 minutes as literally. I think he was just using that because it was how long it took them to get to the house. Based on the 911 call, response time, the call log, and other info I'd estimate the perp was in the house for 2-9 minutes. There are some ways they may have a really good estimate of how long, but it's impossible to say whether or not they know because they're not saying.

As far as saying it multiple times, there was another point during that same interview where there was a facebook question by someone asking:

"How long had the parents been dead for? Do you think someone may have been there much longer than originally believed?"

Sheriff's Answer: I don't know their time of death, but we don't believe so.


I'd add that it's not just this interview alone that makes me think the timeline is shorter. Another thing is that if you remember LE asking about about anyone who saw the cars in the area. They only asked for 12:30am-1:30am. If LE believed the crime started at 12:31am, which is when the neighbors told media that they heard the shots, then they would have extended that timeline to earlier. They'd have wanted to know about those vehicles being in the area earlier than 12:30am. I mean, LE knows for a fact the perp left the house by 1am, yet they still extend the timeline when looking for the vehicles to 1:30am.

Every indication from LE has been that their working timeline for the crime is a pretty narrow 2-9 minute window. Is it possible that they are wrong? Of course it is! But they know a lot more than we do, and when they give multiple indications about a timeline I am going to go with what they say.

I'm on the same page/same line of thinking as you bizzle2 as far as the timeline. There have been several hints that the timeline is shorter and neighbors reported time of hearing gunshots may not be accurate or relevant. Plus LE has never even made mention of the 12:31 gunshots. I think it's also important to think about the info that LE has that we do not know. LE knows when the vehicles of interest passed certain points because they know where the cameras are located and the time of the recordings-- they probably can even estimate the speed of the vehicles. They may have the vehicles on camera going towards the residence as well as away. They may be leaning towards a more narrow timeline of events based on those vehicles or the lack of any other vehicles in the 30 minutes leading up to the 911 call. They also likely know things about Denise's phone-- like if it was charging on the charger, they can tell what time the phone was removed to call 911. They have known for a long time the family was all accounted for in the house at 10 PM when Denise spoke to one of her sisters. We only learned that recently but there may be other things LE knows that clarify the family's timeline inside the house and point to the timing of the attack. I'm choosing to listen to the sheriff when he says this crime did not take very long. One thing I am giving leeway on, however, is the amount of evidence left behind. I hope the sheriff is bluffing on that a little and only saying that to make it seem like they have nothing. They might actually have DNA but have not yet identified it. But that's only a hope I have. JMO.
 
well...as much as no one can agree on lay out of house I guess it would be safe to assume perp either had no clue to lay out or had been there before and knew exactly what the lay out was.
 
looking back at the pic of the front door area where inside could be seen it looked like a cabinet of some type was strait inside from front door, there must be a wall there surely a cabinet wasn't just sat in the middle of the floor with no wall behind it?
 
This is my best guess at a layout. My scale of the actual size of rooms is a bit off as it's hand drawn. I suspect there were walls of some sort dividing the living / kitchen areas and likely a hall closet.

The areas I question are the three colored areas. We need a laundry room, staircase and bathroom.

My best guess is that the red area is laundry off the kitchen perhaps with a half bath and pantry or closet. And yellow / blue being bathroom and staircase. With no way to tell which would be which.

OR that the dining room is a third bedroom and the red area is dining.

Also possible that red swaps with the dining room. Making that back left red area the dining room and where the dining room is marked could be laundry and staircase.
A few photos of Jayme showed the interior of a house which I assumed was the Closses. I was trying to piece together interior a month or so ago and had an idea in my head.
 
A few photos of Jayme showed the interior of a house which I assumed was the Closses. I was trying to piece together interior a month or so ago and had an idea in my head.
the pics I seen look to have same furniture as the house the family interview was in and I assume that is aunts house. maybe? I don't know.
 
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