18 y/o Black male shot dead by Police in St Louis suburb of Berkeley MO

[reedus23]

When it comes to interactions such as that between Antonio Martin and LE, some of us would rather focus on the obligations of people to not shoot, try to shoot, or otherwise attack police officers. We, every last one of us, has that obligation. And if you want to talk about rights, we also have the right to not shoot police officers. However, if we do attempt to shoot a police officer, he generally has the right to shoot us first.

Is someone suggesting AM was justified in shooting, trying to shoot or otherwise attacking a police officer? If so, I have seen nothing that would suggest he was anywhere close to justified in doing so.

 

[MyBelle]

A police camera can be intended to protect whoever you want it to protect. It is simply about the truth.

Also, if you had read my post that you are replying to here you would have read where I said "it is for the safety of everyone, including and especially LE"

Also, you say if a child grows to distrust police, it is not the problem of police? Maybe it is just me, but I would say that is a big problem for the police. Are you suggesting LE does not want or care if the public they serve trust them ?

Maybe they are not responsible FOR the problem but they are definitely responsible TO the problem.

JMO

I don't see police killing thugs who point guns at them to be a real problem. The role of police is to serve and protect and that includes themselves when some points a gun at them. Any citizen has the right to shoot anyone who is pointing a gun at them. It's called "self-defense." Police don't expect thugs and criminals to respect them. I'm not sure where you get the idea that "respect of thugs" is some kind of requirement.

 

[CoolJ]

This case in particular has nothing to do with our rights when interacting with LEO.

Antonio Martin tried to shoot a cop. The cop shot him first. That's what this case is about.

If Antonio Martin had exercised his right to not try to shoot a cop, he would still be alive today. I think the attitude that it's okay to shoot a cop is a major problem that we're facing today, and I've love to see that attitude get fixed.

LoL, you keep repeating what I am saying. I guess you are agreeing with me?

Where are you seeing an attitude that it is ok to shoot a cop?

 

[reedus23]

This case in particular has nothing to do with our rights when interacting with LEO.

Antonio Martin tried to shoot a cop. The cop shot him first. That's what this case is about.

If Antonio Martin had exercised his right to not try to shoot a cop, he would still be alive today. I think the attitude that it's okay to shoot a cop is a major problem that we're facing today, and I've love to see that attitude get fixed.

Likely so, but there is a bigger picture here that also needs to be discussed and if there is no discussion (and I'm not talking about here on WS), then the problem of citizens shooting cops is only going to grow. But there will be no meaningful discussion by those who wrongly think it is ok to shoot cops until cops are willing to admit their shortcomings. What I fear, is that what we see right now is actually just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[reedus23]

I don't see police killing thugs who point guns at them to be a real problem. The role of police is to serve and protect and that includes themselves when some points a gun at them. Any citizen has the right to shoot anyone who is pointing a gun at them. It's called "self-defense." Police don't expect thugs and criminals to respect them. I'm not sure where you get the idea that "respect of thugs" is some kind of requirement.

Ahhhh but therein lies the problem. Does that person's right to self defense include self defense against a cop who that person believes is unlawfully trying to cause him harm?

 

[MyBelle]

BBM
You would know better than me, but that just doesn't seem to be what Terry vs. Ohio says

Again, this is why I keep harping on getting Police Departments to educate the public. It just isn't that clear.

So if I get pulled over for a traffic violation, I can be frisked?

Police can pretty much do whatever they want and you have to raise it as an issue in court if you are arrested and charged. Good luck in convincing a Judge to believe your version of events rather than the arresting officer's.

 

[CoolJ]

I don't see police killing thugs who point guns at them to be a real problem. The role of police is to serve and protect and that includes themselves when some points a gun at them. Any citizen has the right to shoot anyone who is pointing a gun at them. It's called "self-defense." Police don't expect thugs and criminals to respect them. I'm not sure where you get the idea that "respect of thugs" is some kind of requirement.

I don't know where you get the idea that I think "respect of thugs" is some kind of requirement?????
I have said nothing even remotely similar to that.

 

[MyBelle]

Ahhhh but therein lies the problem. Does that person's right to self defense include self defense against a cop who that person believes is unlawfully trying to cause him harm?

Nope. No problem. Cops are doing their job. Pointing a gun at anyone can get you killed. I think most children learn the concept of actions have consequences fairly early in their learning curve.

 

[sonjay]

Is someone suggesting AM was justified in shooting, trying to shoot or otherwise attacking a police officer? If so, I have seen nothing that would suggest he was anywhere close to justified in doing so.

Second night of protests after Antonio Martin shooting
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/25/protesters-berkeley-shooting/20889139/

Crowd Protesting Antonio Martin’s Death Shuts Down Missouri Highway
http://time.com/3647114/antonio-martin-death-protest-shuts-down-missouri-highway/

Another police-involved shooting death of black teen sparks tensions in St. Louis
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...0f3de4-8b76-11e4-8ff4-fb93129c9c8b_story.html

Antonio Martin, Black Teenager, Fatally Shot By Police 2 Miles From Ferguson
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/24/antonio-martin-police-shooting_n_6376210.html

Berkeley suspect's grandmother: 'I want to see the gun in his hand'
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-berkeley-grandmother-20141224-story.html

While headlines like these don't actually claim that AM was justified in trying to shoot the cop, they certainly suggest that the cop wasn't justified in shooting AM. If a person knew nothing about the AM case except for these headlines..... there's not much question what they'd think.

And then we have all the people who seem to think that the AM case is somehow symptomatic of Terry stop abuse, or LE not not being sufficiently trained in "de-escalating" situations, or proof that LE is so racist that people like AM are justified in their distrust of police. And the people who suggest, either implicitly or explicitly, that the cop's dashcam and bodycam not being operational is some sort of evidence that it was a bad shoot.

This case is symptomatic of a criminal culture that fosters the attitude that it's okay to shoot cops. And that's a major and serious problem that must be dealt with, IMO. Not least of which is that it's likely to result in even more shootings by police, who are justifiably concerned about people like AM shooting at them.

 

[CoolJ]

Police can pretty much do whatever they want and you have to raise it as an issue in court if you are arrested and charged. Good luck in convincing a Judge to believe your version of events rather than the arresting officer's.

Police can do pretty much whatever they want..??
Good luck convincing a judge to believe my version of events rather than arresting officer??

I'm not sure if that is true but if it were do you not see the problem with that?

 

[ontheclock]

Likely so, but there is a bigger picture here that also needs to be discussed and if there is no discussion (and I'm not talking about here on WS), then the problem of citizens shooting cops is only going to grow. But there will be no meaningful discussion by those who wrongly think it is ok to shoot cops until cops are willing to admit their shortcomings. What I fear, is that what we see right now is actually just the tip of the iceberg.

Do you think the problem is cops unwilling to admit their shortcomings? Methinks it's something else. You say they think that wrongly. I totally agree.

 

[Archangel7]

Ahhhh but therein lies the problem. Does that person's right to self defense include self defense against a cop who that person believes is unlawfully trying to cause him harm?

In this case based on what we have, absolutely not. Self defense by a citizen against a citizen has some criteria. Resisting unlawful arrest has certain specific criteria which are almost impossible to meet in this day and age.

None of which remotely apply in this case.

 

[MyBelle]

I think it is pretty obvious that we have an "obligation" not to shoot or attack police officers. What is not so obvious is what rights you have when interacting with police officers. Our verified LEO brought up Terry vs. Ohio. That has nothing to do with this case in particular but has lots to do with what has been going on the last 3 or 4 months. So I responded as to what I think is needed to fix the problems that we are facing today.

afaik, there is only one constitutional right that covers interaction with police officers: the right to remain silent. If there are other rights I'm not aware, please enlighten me. If someone is dumb enough to try to hurt a police officer, they will be prosecuted and sent to prison. If someone is dumb enough to kill a police officer in my state, they will receive the death penalty.

 

[Curious Guy]

I sense this thread is perilously close to being hijacked into another bad cops discussion.

 

[reedus23]

Nope. No problem. Cops are doing their job. Pointing a gun at anyone can get you killed. I think most children learn the concept of actions have consequences fairly early in their learning curve.

So cops break down your door on accident when it should have been the neighbors door. They throw in some flash grenades, shoot your dog and bust down your bedroom door where you and your significant other are. Mind you, you don't even know who it is that just broke down your door. You and your significant other should just lie there and hope that whoever it is that just broke into your bedroom doesn't shoot you and your significant other?

We had a poster earlier relate a story of an officer that had pulled her over and she had painfully told us of what that officer demanded of her. The right thing in such a situation is to simply allow the officer to have his/her way with you? No right to defend yourself from such behavior?

 

[CHERIE.T]

Second night of protests after Antonio Martin shooting
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/25/protesters-berkeley-shooting/20889139/

Crowd Protesting Antonio Martin’s Death Shuts Down Missouri Highway
http://time.com/3647114/antonio-martin-death-protest-shuts-down-missouri-highway/

Another police-involved shooting death of black teen sparks tensions in St. Louis
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...0f3de4-8b76-11e4-8ff4-fb93129c9c8b_story.html

Antonio Martin, Black Teenager, Fatally Shot By Police 2 Miles From Ferguson
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/24/antonio-martin-police-shooting_n_6376210.html

Berkeley suspect's grandmother: 'I want to see the gun in his hand'
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-berkeley-grandmother-20141224-story.html

While headlines like these don't actually claim that AM was justified in trying to shoot the cop, they certainly suggest that the cop wasn't justified in shooting AM. If a person knew nothing about the AM case except for these headlines..... there's not much question what they'd think.

And then we have all the people who seem to think that the AM case is somehow symptomatic of Terry stop abuse, or LE not not being sufficiently trained in "de-escalating" situations, or proof that LE is so racist that people like AM are justified in their distrust of police. And the people who suggest, either implicitly or explicitly, that the cop's dashcam and bodycam not being operational is some sort of evidence that it was a bad shoot.

This case is symptomatic of a criminal culture that fosters the attitude that it's okay to shoot cops. And that's a major and serious problem that must be dealt with, IMO. Not least of which is that it's likely to result in even more shootings by police, who are justifiably concerned about people like AM shooting at them.

bbm
That's sadly how many see it.

 

[reedus23]

In this case based on what we have, absolutely not. Self defense by a citizen against a citizen has some criteria. Resisting unlawful arrest has certain specific criteria which are almost impossible to meet in this day and age.

I hear ya. I'm gonna drop it because I don't think some like to discuss the issues. What makes it a tough thing to talk about is the fact that 99% of all cops' actions are admirable but unfortunately, to work towards fixing any problems that may or may not exist, it requires talking about the 1%, which leaves some with the impression that LE as a whole is being bashed. Soooooo, I will drop it and I will watch the body count increase on both sides because those discussions cannot be had on a national level much less here on WS(not addressed to you Archangel but to others).

 

[CoolJ]

afaik, there is only one constitutional right that covers interaction with police officers: the right to remain silent. If there are other rights I'm not aware, please enlighten me. If someone is dumb enough to try to hurt a police officer, they will be prosecuted and sent to prison. If someone is dumb enough to kill a police officer in my state, they will receive the death penalty.

The only right is to remain silent??? Hmm.. You obviously have not been reading any of my posts.

Put it this way then. When interacting with a police officer what basic rights do you lose? Are you saying you lose all of the except the right to remain silent?

 

[MyBelle]

Police can do pretty much whatever they want..??
Good luck convincing a judge to believe my version of events rather than arresting officer??

I'm not sure if that is true but if it were do you not see the problem with that?

Nope. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to beat even a DUI arrest? Unless you have pretty deep pockets to hire an attorney to contest the breathalyzer, it can't be done. That's because the Judge knows the probability of guilt is overwhelming.

Cops are allowed to rely on their judgment. Which is why I give them my utmost respect and have taught my children to do the same. If cops do something "wrong", such as use of excessive force, it better be captured on video.

This case involves a justified shooting just as Michael Brown's was justified.

 

[CoolJ]

Where are you folks seeing a culture or attitude that it is ok to kill cops?