Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #212

[Deleted member 229974]

I hope the jurors sift through everything with a fine tooth comb.

I have faith that they will.

 

[jepop]

I hope the jury won't have their judgement clouded by the disturbing videos of RA in custody at the prison. It should be possible to believe both that it was wrong to house RA in isolation in the prison and that he murdered Abby and Libby. RA shouldn't get a pass on murdering the girls even though he did some hard time while awaiting trial.

Very important points you raise here, moo. Feel sure this will be explicated clearly in prosecution's closing. In part, defense is seeking to cloud jury's reasoning abilities with pity and possibly disgust. I believe this jury is very perceptive though, judging from their questions.

It's heartening to me to believe they'll apply reason to the strong totality of circumstantial evidence which implicates RA and no-one else. After years of investigations and many, many eliminations of alternate suspects. Moo

 

[Deleted member 229974]

Not correct.
An expert witness is specifically giving their own opinions at trial, based on their specialized knowledge and analysis of the evidence presented in the case, unlike lay witnesses who are typically limited to testifying about what they directly observed.

So they are considered “expert” opinions?

 

[shonyakay]

Some interesting things RA told Liggett and Mullin on October 13, 2022.

"Liggett then read Tip #74, Allen’s self-reported tip stating he was on the trail dressed in similar clothes as Bridge Guy."

Interesting. So did RA actually describe what he was wearing to Dan Dulin on February 18, 2017? We all thought he didn't because that wasn't in the tip narrative that was located in RA's PCA.

Liggett then showed Allen photos of Bridge Guy.

“Absolutely, not me, Allen said. “I’ve never met the girls. Even if it looks like me, I’ve never seen them … It’s not me. I’ve never met these girls before."

Even if it looks like me?

"If that picture was taken from one of the girls’ phones, then it is not me.” - RA

RA knew, if he was keeping up with the investigation, that LE released info that Libby took that picture on her phone at a press conference days after talking to DD.

"We have people that saw you,” Liggett said.

“There weren’t that many people who saw me unless they were coming from behind me, and I didn’t see them,” Allen responded.

I believe once BB noticed RA on platform 1, he left the bridge, and that is when he seen Abby and Libby. He knew then that the only ones ahead of him were Abby and Libby so he waited on the trail to make sure BB was gone and no one else was behind him before he made his move and started to follow them across the bridge.

On October 26, 2022 in Holeman's interview with RA.

"There is no way that round is from my gun on the bridge,” Allen told him

At this time RA had no idea where the round was actually found. This right here corroborates he is BG because BG accosted the girls' with a gun on the bridge. It also corroborates RA's confession to Dr. Wala when he told her he did something with his gun on the bridge and that is when he thought his bullet came out.

 

[Mitch1]

DBM

 

[Mitch1]

Some interesting things RA told Liggett and Mullin on October 13, 2022.

"Liggett then read Tip #74, Allen’s self-reported tip stating he was on the trail dressed in similar clothes as Bridge Guy."

Interesting. So did RA actually describe what he was wearing to Dan Dulin on February 18, 2017? We all thought he didn't because that wasn't in the tip narrative that was located in RA's PCA.

Liggett then showed Allen photos of Bridge Guy.

“Absolutely, not me, Allen said. “I’ve never met the girls. Even if it looks like me, I’ve never seen them … It’s not me. I’ve never met these girls before."

Even if it looks like me?

"If that picture was taken from one of the girls’ phones, then it is not me.” - RA

RA knew, if he was keeping up with the investigation, that LE released info that Libby took that picture on her phone at a press conference days after talking to DD.

"We have people that saw you,” Liggett said.

“There weren’t that many people who saw me unless they were coming from behind me, and I didn’t see them,” Allen responded.

I believe once BB noticed RA on platform 1, he left the bridge, and that is when he seen Abby and Libby. He knew then that the only ones ahead of him were Abby and Libby so he waited on the trail to make sure BB was gone and no one else was behind him before he made his move and started to follow them across the bridge.

On October 26, 2022 in Holeman's interview with RA.

"There is no way that round is from my gun on the bridge,” Allen told him

At this time RA had no idea where the round was actually found. This right here corroborates he is BG because BG accosted the girls' with a gun on the bridge. It also corroborates RA's confession to Dr. Wala when he told her he did something with his gun on the bridge and that is when he thought his bullet came out.

So you believe him when he says “even if he looks like me” and wearing similar clothes but not when he says “absolutely not me”?
You seem to only be interested in confirming your belief that RA is BG.?

If the defense paid to get BG’s height verified and it turned out to be oh, I don’t know 5’10 and those analyst can replicate their accuracy with anyone, over and over again- would you still believe that RA is BG?

 

[shonyakay]

So you believe him when he says “even if he looks like me” and wearing similar clothes but not when he says “absolutely not me”?
You seem to only be interested in confirming your belief that RA is BG.?

If the defense paid to get BG’s height verified and it turned out to be oh, I don’t know 5’10 and those analyst can replicate their accuracy with anyone, over and over again- would you still believe that RA is BG

I am pointing out the fact that he seems to be saying that BG looks like him.

If he was BG would he have admitted that to LE?

No way.


A 5'10 man with bunched up jeans at the bottom?

Edited: I meant of course RA would say he didn't do it (The crime) to LE, hence my question, "If he was BG would he have admitted that to LE?"

 

[Deleted member 229974]

I don't know if it made a notification about the headphones or not. Screen was too glitchy. But it did start working again the next afternoon after it has dried out. But it never really worked correctly again.

So what. That officer was just downloading texts and pictures. He had no known reason to look at the audio port at that time. Lesson learned.

Her pants were wet and the phone was in the pockets when they crossed the creek.

I think the point Tristan is trying to make, is that even without an expert’s examination of the phone as to water, mud or blood causing the connection issue, you seem insistent that that is the reason for it. IMO

 

[Mitch1]

I am pointing out the fact that he seems to be saying that BG looks like him.

If he was BG would he have admitted that to LE?

No way.


A 5'10 man with bunched up jeans at the bottom?

I think a better question would be would BG had self reported to LE? I say NO way, he is long gone

 

[SouthEnd]

I think the point Tristan is trying to make, is that even without an expert’s examination of the phone as to water, mud or blood causing the connection issue, you seem insistent that that is the reason for it. IMO

That's the only reasonable explanation given all the other evidence in the scene.

IMO

 

[Deleted member 229974]

The point is arcing occurs. Temperature, debris, moisture and time create variables. This is more of the defense using a small variable to launch more conspiracy.

They’re just making sure the Prosecution is doing their job. IMO

 

[shonyakay]

I think the point Tristan is trying to make, is that even without an expert’s examination of the phone as to water, mud or blood causing the connection issue, you seem insistent that that is the reason for it. IMO

Not OP, but what else could be a "plausible" conclusion?

Eldridge admitted on Cross that water or dirt may have caused the audio output to display in error.

 

[Warwick7]

So they are considered “expert” opinions?

Yes

 

[zh0r4]

First, this is the witness's opinion....
Second how does anyone know how long or short it takes for water, debris and blood to move in and damage a headphone jack?

Whether or not the phone had water damage is not related to the data retrieved from the Knowledge C database. The data shows a physical hand on Libby’s phone physically plugged in headphones. It logs both when the headphones are plugged in and unplugged. The witness is more than qualified and is a former FBI digital analyst. This water damage narrative is a totally different issue and has nothing to do with the Knowledge C database. Furthermore, Cecil didn’t even finish the cell phone extraction, which was completed by Eldrige. They had 7 years to do this, but didn’t finish it. I’m very confused how attacking credible witnesses is conducive to getting justice for Abby and Libby? I want the right person to be held accountable. I don’t believe being pro law enforcement means attack law enforcement that doesn’t reinforce my beliefs. I wish LE had been more thorough and responsible about evidence in the beginning, but let’s avoid pretending they didn’t make mistakes and that those trying to discover more years later are the baddies. JMHO.

Source with timestamps:

2:01:34 Stacy Eldrige former FBI digital examiner

2:04:39 Reviewed the Oct 2017 extraction,
Cecils reports and deposition

2:10:40 Downloaded Knowledge C Exhibit
TTT extraction E227

2:12:30 Cecil's report review, Feb 13 5:44 & Feb 14 4:33AM E QQQ? AT&T historical log

2:17:20 What did AT&T log tell us about the connection

2:21:03 No evidence of when calls were missed, voice mails, pings

2:25:30 Audio output Knowledge C, wired headphone being inserted 5:45-10:32pm

2:29:30 Any alternate explanation to human hands? No.

 

[shonyakay]

I think a better question would be would BG had self reported to LE? I say NO way, he is long gone

Glad you mention it,

Mullin asked about why Allen reported being on the trail on Feb. 13, 2017.

“It was the next day or a couple of days later,” he said. “I went down because my wife said they wanted to talk to anyone who had been there.”

‘I didn’t do it’ - Carroll County Comet

This is a two-part series. Tomorrow we will post Allen’s confessions testified to by employees and former employees of the Indiana Department of Corrections. “I didn’t do it.” Richard Allen sat in an interview room at the Indiana State Police Lafayette Post across the table from Lt. Jerry...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[AugustWest]

I am pointing out the fact that he seems to be saying that BG looks like him.

If he was BG would he have admitted that to LE?

No way.


A 5'10 man with bunched up jeans at the bottom?

Tall men can have jeans that bunch at the bottom. I'm over 6 feet tall and I roll several pair of mine up.

 

[jepop]

Whether or not the phone had water damage is not related to the data retrieved from the Knowledge C database. The data shows a physical hand on Libby’s phone physically plugged in headphones. It logs both when the headphones are plugged in and unplugged. The witness is more than qualified and is a former FBI digital analyst. This water damage narrative is a totally different issue and has nothing to do with the Knowledge C database. Furthermore, Cecil didn’t even finish the cell phone extraction, which was completed by Eldrige. They had 7 years to do this, but didn’t finish it. I’m very confused how attacking credible witnesses is conducive to getting justice for Abby and Libby? I want the right person to be held accountable. I don’t believe being pro law enforcement means attack law enforcement that doesn’t reinforce my beliefs. I wish LE had been more thorough and responsible about evidence in the beginning, but let’s avoid pretending they didn’t make mistakes and that those trying to discover more years later are the baddies. JMHO.

Source with timestamps:

2:01:34 Stacy Eldrige former FBI digital examiner

2:04:39 Reviewed the Oct 2017 extraction,
Cecils reports and deposition

2:10:40 Downloaded Knowledge C Exhibit
TTT extraction E227

2:12:30 Cecil's report review, Feb 13 5:44 & Feb 14 4:33AM E QQQ? AT&T historical log

2:17:20 What did AT&T log tell us about the connection

2:21:03 No evidence of when calls were missed, voice mails, pings

2:25:30 Audio output Knowledge C, wired headphone being inserted 5:45-10:32pm

2:29:30 Any alternate explanation to human hands? No.

Don't see how what you posted here as data shows there was a physical hand plugging in ear phones into the audio jack. Not in the least clear. Jmo

 

[zh0r4]

It changes nothing. The bodies were laying where they were killed. They never moved. The phone never moved. No one had headphones on at 10 pm.

This is incorrect according to the former FBI digital analyst. The Knowledge C database showed a physical interaction by a human hand plugging headphones into Libby’s phone between 5:45pm-10:32pm. Therefore the phone was technically moved. Also, Dr. Kohr was unfortunately unable to give a TOD (except between when they disappeared and when they were found). This doesn’t mean they were or were not alive, but that the state’s narrative does not fit the facts presented in the trial thus far. The judge also refused to allow the D to present geofence data-why? Why would geofence data from Libby and/or RA’s phone be omitted? What did it show? JMO.

Source (starts @ abt 2 hours in, specific timestamps listed in the comments)

 

[MiniMoo]

I think a better question would be would BG had self reported to LE? I say NO way, he is long gone

If the perpetrator made sure to unalive those girls and leave behind no tracks - it is highly unlikely that person would dob himself in straight away.

Not with a video release or voice recording, I'd think.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[katydid23]

Here's what Fox59 is saying to expect in closing statements:

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-defense-rests-its-case/

Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland will go first, not utilizing his full two-and-a-half hours at the start, to remind jurors that investigators have a photograph of what they believe is Allen’s car not far from the murder scene and a bullet found near the bodies that an Indiana State Police expert testified came from Allen’s gun and confessions to his wife and his mother and a prison psychiatrist that he killed the girls and had exclusive knowledge about a white van that may have driven by as he was attempting to sexually assault the girls and his own statement that he was walking on a nature path to the bridge that day.

Lead defense attorney Bradley Rozzi will go next and will make his final attempt to convince jurors that investigators arrested the wrong man, that Allen’s DNA was not at the crime scene and the girls’ DNA was not found on Allen’s clothes or knives or car, that the State Police test that linked the found bullet to his handgun was flawed in an apples-to-oranges comparison, that social media was awash with references to a white van during the early parts of the investigation, that Allen suffered from psychosis while in solitary confinement in a state prison cell and made false confessions and the investigation was botched from the start, Allen’s own voluntary interview from 2017 was lost in the files until two years ago, and no witnesses positively identified Allen as being on the scene that day.

Then McLeland will give his final closing argument and Judge Gull will give jury instructions with emphasis on the concept of reasonable doubt, the credibility of Allen and witnesses and the reminder that Allen’s decision to not testify on his own behalf cannot be held against him.

They left out the Bridge Guy video, which I think is important evidence. I think it has been established, through circumstantial evidence and common sense, that RA is Bridge Guy. I think the jurors may believe that too by now.


I think the repetitive confessions, on paper and on audio are going to sway some jurors in that direction because of the reported voice similarity, and his original admission of being on the bridge, wearing same clothing as BG. Having same body type, very short legs---you can see in side by side pictures the way his jeans fall and crunch up at his ankles. Rounded shoulders. Minor details but when seen all together it is important.

RA never mentioned someone who looked like him being on the trail or the bridge at that same time. None of the immediate witnesses saw TWO men at that time. There was just one man on the bridge with the girls and it was RA/BG.

The theory that some other guy might have jumped the girls went they walked off the bridge seems so very unlikely. There was already a strange man forcing them off the bridge at gunpoint---how did some other guy suddenly take over? That makes no sense. The only way would be if BG was also involved, so if he is he should be found guilty and maybe he will cough up the accomplice and make a deal?

Leaving that video out of this article seems odd to me. We were not in court nor have transcripts so we don't know everything that was seen and heard by the jury.But I believe that the video will be instrumental in laying out the evidence in the connection between BG and RA. IMO

IF the jurors believe that RA =BG, then the prosecution is almost all the way there. Because the video makes it clear that the guy on the bridge, being secretly filmed following behind them, is the same guy that said Guys, Down The Hill...and that is the last moment in time that the girls were seen alive and well by anyone besides BG.