Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

[flourish]

When I lost my child, I grieved for years. I buried my child in the cemetery.

KC went to Blockbusters. KC dumped Caylee like three day old trash.

When I got my tattoo in memory of my child, I had their initials included.

KC's tattoo displayed her goals "happy life", no references of Caylee exist to date on her tattoo.

During the first year, I could only go to work. I had to be dragged to the stores. I couldn't go near a toy store or any isles with baby products.

During KC's first 31 days (that we know of), KC partied like it was 1999. Pole dancing and kissing gals. Target and grocery shopping were KC's daily routine haunts. TL was KC's entertainment.

When people who didn't know I lost my child asked me about it, I told them where and what happened with my child.

KC ---- oh well, we all know how many different versions of Caylee's disappearance and murder have been spoken by her.

By the way, I have never, not once, let my personal experiences influence my opinions of KC. From the moment NG had KC's arrest on her show, I knew Caylee was gone and KC was responsible; directly or indirectly.

*Sigh*....I hear ya... :hug::hug::hug: I still have a hard time with certain toys, too.

In Casey's letters, she says something about how sometimes she can't stop smiling and sighing when she thinks of Caylee's smile...I can't remember exactly, but my point is, that sentence re-affirmed my opinion that Casey is not and never was in grief over Caylee's death. While many bereaved mothers will think of their child and smile, of course, there is always an accompanying feeling sadness...at not ever being able to see that smile again...the fear that you'll somehow forgot exactly what your child's laughter sounded like...Casey's description just sounded so false and contrived and...yep, I'm gonna say it again, GIDDY. Makes me want to freaking puke. :sick:

IMO

 

[Nore]

Hi DairyGirl, a bit O/T. Do you ever feel like you are numb or in some sort of time warp? I do. I lost a girl at 28 wks. and a son at 36yrs.There is no difference in the pain,it does not go away one just learns to cope.I still cry for both.We had our girl moved to be with us,this 41 yrs.after her death.Couldnt stand the thought of her all alone.I feel your pain along withfeelings for all our moms of Angels.:angel:

 

[notthatsmart]

I have NOT found this to be true. I lost a baby at 20 weeks to a stillbirth and attended support groups for parents that lost children. I have also had several friends that have lost children. I cannot think of one that was able to hide their grief. It was almost an aura, that is how I knew that this was another mother with a loss. Especially in the first few weeks/months. I just read KC's note that she apparently wrote at Christmas time, 2008, weeks after she knew Caylee was gone. This was a note to a women she claimed was her closet friend. Their wasn't a syllable about Caylee in there, during Christmas yet, the hardest time for a parent to face after a loss. She supposedly could talk about anything to this woman but not a word about any kind of loss. I realize that KC isn't normal and she has personality disorders but unless your heart is made of stone (or you intentionally caused the death) your pain is pallable. There is no way Caylee's death was even remotely an accident. If the duct tape didn't tell me that, KC's own behavior confirmed it.

Sounds to me like she wasn't as close to this woman as the woman claims. I do not open up to aqaintences or even friends that are not that close. I may chit chat and feed them the info they need to keep them happy, but no way am I opening up to them. Thats for family......... IMO

 

[DairyGirl]

Hi DairyGirl, a bit O/T. Do you ever feel like you are numb or in some sort of time warp? I do. I lost a girl at 28 wks. and a son at 36yrs.There is no difference in the pain,it does not go away one just learns to cope.I still cry for both.We had our girl moved to be with us,this 41 yrs.after her death.Couldnt stand the thought of her all alone.I feel your pain along withfeelings for all our moms of Angels.:angel:

Thank you, Nore. I think you have to learn to be numb to dull the pain, but it never goes away. The mothers here have spoken of the pain I have felt. It is universal, a club no one wants to belong to. KC DOES not belong to that club.

 

[logicalgirl]

Maybe I am off base, but I would think for one to do an assessment that they would have to meet/speak with/know the individual being assessed. At least for me to believe it were a reliable assessment. I also just cant get past any of the "media types" who have inserted themselves into this case(or any case), and very rarely take any of them and/or their views as reliable(regardless of their opinion on guilt/innocence).

I wish Casey had seen a mental health professional, or, in the event that she has, I would like to know the view of that expert. This could open up some good avenues for real discussion on this topic we are engaged in "accident vs intentional". I personally feel (as you all now know) that this was an accident. As such, I wish an "expert" would weigh in on the possibility of Caysee "losing it" after finding Caylee deceased. It sure explains a lot for me in regards to her actions after her death. I agree with most that her actions were and are bizarre, but I am just not comfortable in the notion that she seriously took 31 days to think up this story. To me it is as though she has totally disassociated herself from the actual event(Caylees death). No matter her guilt or innnocence there is something totally off about that to me. I refuse to buy "she is evil" as the reasoning unfortunately.

I don't believe we will see a mental health professional assess Casey beyond whether or not she is competent to stand trial and understands right from wrong. After all, look at Andrea Yates - that poor woman was under care for years - her husband knew she was in serious trouble and did nothing to get help for her, and yet she was found guilty. So whatever psychosis Casey may suffering from (if she is) - be it psychopath or narcissist - it will have no bearing on her guilt or innocence. She was declared fit for trial.

 

[DairyGirl]

Sounds to me like she wasn't as close to this woman as the woman claims. I do not open up to aqaintences or even friends that are not that close. I may chit chat and feed them the info they need to keep them happy, but no way am I opening up to them. Thats for family......... IMO

She made it clear this was her "sister", a sister from another mother and father. I realize that people like KC are incapable of forming real bonds but she talked about getting pregnant together. If she wasn't really feeling close to her she was doing her best to act like she was. I guess no one told her that mothers who lost children are supposed to act sad.

 

[logicalgirl]

KC does NOT exhibit nor has she been diagnosed with any mental deficiencies that prevents her, CA, GA or LA from knowing wrong from right in any legal meaning.

JB, with his clients permission, would have that bit of info printed in the USA Today, go on a full blown media blitz to every national and local media outlet stating this if there was any.

Sheeze, if KC was innocent, JB would have done this immediately. The fact that JB hasn't made any statement, submitted ANY type of discovery that it was an accident or verified proof that KC was not involved in Caylee's murder in any way, shape or form in close to two years speaks volumes more.

By legal standards as I understand them, KC is innocent until proven guilty and it is up to the SAs office to produce evidence of her guilt. That I get. What I don't get is JB's proclamation of KCs innocence yet she still sits in jail, adapting very well I might add.

I have read most if not all the SA's released evidence. I have spent hours reading. I have subjected myself to CA and GA's depos. My family has endured more crock pot dinners than I can count. My clothes have sat in the dryer for days. Even being snowed in under 33 inches of snow for weeks didn't deter me from reading.

Still waiting to read anything of substance (motions poorly written don't count) that JB releases. I will probably add more gray hairs while waiting, and waiting, and waiting .......... Baseball World Series will come and go (Go Tigers), Nascar will have run 36 races, the Super Bowl playoffs will have been played and March Madness will be over by the time we get to see any real meaningful evidence from JB.

I don't want to get jeered off the board - but I've always had a sneaky feeling that at the beginning - Baez was so fin love with himself being in such demand, that he's snagged a high profile case that was all over the news with this cute little chick that he ignored the obvious and actually believed Casey's story. In two years we've seen his attitude towards Casey freeze over step by step, as more and more evidence came to light. She is "his girl" no more - he almost acts like he can hardly stand to be around her. If he wasn't such a full of himself buffoon, I might feel a little bit sorry for him for being so suckered.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Thank you for admitting that you have not read all the docs. I for one have admitted it as well. However, I have read thousands of documents since this case began. I have read most of the discovery with the exception of some of these latest letters. I think it is unrealistic to claim you have read all the docs.IMO

I believe we have a 12-step program for doc reading. The first step is admitting you have a problem I'm a recovering member. "Hi :wave: My name is Bond. I am a doc reader". And, for those times when I cave to temptation I recite Intermezzo's WS prayer, "Lord, Forgive me for what I am about to read." rayer:

Personally, there are more documents that I haven't read than ones I have. Which is one of the reasons I appreciate all the kind WS's that come on the forum and share/summarize what they have read, so I have a small window into what's in them. That gives me the opportunity to dive into areas I am interested in and not spend time on the areas that don't seem important to me.

In fact :waitasec: if every WS agreed to read one page...:waitasec:

And just to bring this post 'round to the thread topic. I dunno if it was accidental or intentional. There are pieces of information that push me in both directions, and I hafta own up to not knowing enough yet about exactly what happened. So...I'll continue to let all the brilliant WS minds broaden my thinking to all the possibilities that fit with what we know so far. :thumb:

 

[notthatsmart]

I have no authority on how people grieve. I have lost loved ones in my life and have actually resented the way people have treated me. Like something was wrong with me. Furthermore, I hated to go out to dinner,even up to a year later people would still confront me about it. They were dwelling on it more than me, and I was suppose to be the one grieving. At least at the school where I work, people were decent about it and not dwelling on it. That is what helped me to move on. There is no way in Heck I would show my emotions in public, but thats just me. I for one do not claim to know more about grieving than the next person. Some people are dieing inside, but you would never know it, and rightfully so, Its their personal feelings and not your business.

I do not know Kc, Kc does not know me, I do not deserve to see her grief. I have not earned that kind of respect from her. I dont know why so many sleuthers expect her to open up to the public. I personally believe the pain is there and it is eating her alive.. IMO

 

[logicalgirl]

I have no authority on how people grieve. I have lost loved ones in my life and have actually resented the way people have treated me. Like something was wrong with me. Furthermore, I hated to go out to dinner,even up to a year later people would still confront me about it. They were dwelling on it more than me, and I was suppose to be the one grieving. At least at the school where I work, people were decent about it and not dwelling on it. That is what helped me to move on. There is no way in Heck I would show my emotions in public, but thats just me. I for one do not claim to know more about grieving than the next person. Some people are dieing inside, but you would never know it, and rightfully so, Its their personal feelings and not your business.

I do not know Kc, Kc does not know me, I do not deserve to see her grief. I have not earned that kind of respect from her. I dont know why so many sleuthers expect her to open up to the public. I personally believe the pain is there and it is eating her alive.. IMO

IMO - Not all the world is as stoic and private as you wish to be nts. However, when Casey was writing her private letters to her new BFF in prison, supposively expressing her true feelings, was that "public" since she considered this woman her "sister" and "family" and declared her as such. Would you expect her to mention even a smidgeon of grief at the loss of Caylee?

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

IMO - Not all the world is as stoic and private as you wish to be nts. However, when Casey was writing her private letters to her new BFF in prison, supposively expressing her true feelings, was that "public" since she considered this woman her "sister" and "family" and declared her as such. Would you expect her to mention even a smidgeon of grief at the loss of Caylee?

I think it would be much more difficult for me to talk about being sexually molested by two family members than grief about my missing/murdered daughter.

 

[LinasK]

I have no authority on how people grieve. I have lost loved ones in my life and have actually resented the way people have treated me. Like something was wrong with me. Furthermore, I hated to go out to dinner,even up to a year later people would still confront me about it. They were dwelling on it more than me, and I was suppose to be the one grieving. At least at the school where I work, people were decent about it and not dwelling on it. That is what helped me to move on. There is no way in Heck I would show my emotions in public, but thats just me. I for one do not claim to know more about grieving than the next person. Some people are dieing inside, but you would never know it, and rightfully so, Its their personal feelings and not your business.

I do not know Kc, Kc does not know me, I do not deserve to see her grief. I have not earned that kind of respect from her. I dont know why so many sleuthers expect her to open up to the public. I personally believe the pain is there and it is eating her alive.. IMO

Yeah, but being stoic when one is grieving is not the same extreme as going out partying, renting videos, smiling. She acts just like Scott Peterson did when Laci disappeared! He went golfing and drinking margaritas, but... at least he pretending to help at the search center...

 

[notthatsmart]

IMO - Not all the world is as stoic and private as you wish to be nts. However, when Casey was writing her private letters to her new BFF in prison, supposively expressing her true feelings, was that "public" since she considered this woman her "sister" and "family" and declared her as such. Would you expect her to mention even a smidgeon of grief at the loss of Caylee?

Absolutely not. That woman was an aquaintance through jail house bars. Kc doesn't even know what a sister is. That is just Kc talkin shop. lol Kc is prolly confused of what family is suppose to be at this point. I am not going to put any stock into what this RA person has to say. Kc may have written letters to her, but I do not believe she opened up to her at all. Just bs with her. IMO

 

[logicalgirl]

Absolutely not. That woman was an aquaintance through jail house bars. Kc doesn't even know what a sister is. That is just Kc talkin shop. lol Kc is prolly confused of what family is suppose to be at this point. I am not going to put any stock into what this RA person has to say. Kc may have written letters to her, but I do not believe she opened up to her at all. Just bs with her. IMO

Okay I believe that you believe that.

 

[flourish]

Absolutely not. That woman was an aquaintance through jail house bars. Kc doesn't even know what a sister is. That is just Kc talkin shop. lol Kc is prolly confused of what family is suppose to be at this point. I am not going to put any stock into what this RA person has to say. Kc may have written letters to her, but I do not believe she opened up to her at all. Just bs with her. IMO

Well...I definitely agree with the last sentence, which was bolded and underlined by me most respectfully, for emphasis.

Yep...just bs with Casey...ya got that right

 

[okiedokietoo]

On the last thread you posted this, it was such an adamant statement, it was disputed, so I looked it up.

Horace Finklestein Post 147
Protecting children is certainly not programmed into us. Human behavior is learned not instinctual all credible research shows this.

http://www.parentingweekly.com/pregnancy/breathingspace/vol39/pregnancy_health_fitness.asp
"One scientist who believes that mothering behavior is learned and not instinctual is Sarah Blaffer Hrdy, professor emeritus of anthropology at the University of California at Davis and author of Mother Nature: A History of Mothers, Infants, and Natural Selection."
----------
"Although she concedes that maternal responses exist, she believes they are biologically conditioned, but not true instincts."

http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/documents/Hrdy_02.pdf
This is a lecture she gave at the University of Utah on the subject
February 27 and 28, 2001 (not going to quote the lecture)

Sarah Blaffer Hrdy is professor emeritus of anthropology at the
University of California, Davis. She was educated at Radcliffe College
and received her Ph.D. from Harvard University. Hrdy is the recipient
of a Guggenheim Fellowship, a member of the National Academy of
Sciences and the California Academy of Sciences, and a fellow of the Animal
Behavior Society and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.

 

[notthatsmart]

Yeah, but being stoic when one is grieving is not the same extreme as going out partying, renting videos, smiling. She acts just like Scott Peterson did when Laci disappeared! He went golfing and drinking margaritas, but... at least he pretending to help at the search center...

I do not believe Kc knew Caylee was dead. She thought she was with someone. As a matter of fact, I do not believe the Le even know when Caylee died. Kc is not Sp. He had motive, he was going out with a very beautiful young woman. His wife was just in his way. That is what I call motive. Kc loved Caylee. On many occasions thru text or email she expressed that she could not go out because she had Caylee. She was doing the right thing. No reason for me to believe something snapped after 2 and a half years.

Kc could not help search, she had an ankle bracelet on. I would never expect a grieving person to search for their loved one. As far as looking into it, the defense said on 48 hours that she did have someone looking into it. I think many are going to become surprised come trial time. IMO

 

[BondJamesBond]

An interesting article on a few different levels methinks: [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection[/ame]

"A person incapable of ascribing their own feelings to other people has great difficulties in understanding them."

I find myself doing this in an attempt to understand Casey...and then realize that's just my way of trying to figure her out. And, I'm guessin' I'm not the only one

 

[flourish]

On the last thread you posted this, it was such an adamant statement, it was disputed, so I looked it up.


http://www.parentingweekly.com/pregnancy/breathingspace/vol39/pregnancy_health_fitness.asp
"One scientist who believes that mothering behavior is learned and not instinctual is Sarah Blaffer Hrdy, professor emeritus of anthropology at the University of California at Davis and author of Mother Nature: A History of Mothers, Infants, and Natural Selection."
----------
"Although she concedes that maternal responses exist, she believes they are biologically conditioned, but not true instincts."

http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/documents/Hrdy_02.pdf
This is a lecture she gave at the University of Utah on the subject
February 27 and 28, 2001 (not going to quote the lecture)

Sarah Blaffer Hrdy is professor emeritus of anthropology at the
University of California, Davis. She was educated at Radcliffe College
and received her Ph.D. from Harvard University. Hrdy is the recipient
of a Guggenheim Fellowship, a member of the National Academy of
Sciences and the California Academy of Sciences, and a fellow of the Animal
Behavior Society and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.

Yeah, the nature vs. nurture debate still rages strong. I'm almost done (yay!) with a master's degree in teaching with a specializaiton in early childhood education. Right this very minute I am interrupting a paper I am writing about...the nature vs. nurture debate! (It's a boring uninspired paper, so that's not the point).

Point is, indeed the debate continues. It's not been resolved, or if it has, it's in a more "agree to disagree" or "it's both, dang it!" kind of resolved. "The developing nervous system is preprogrammed in many ways (nature), but its development can be affected dramatically by environmental agents (nurture). A genotype has a reaction range of phenotypes associated with it. Phenotypic expression depends on the unique environmental stimulation the organism experiences," (Pressley & McCormick, p. 58).

Resources:
Pressley, M., & McCormick, C.B. (2007). Child and adolescent development for educators. New York, NY: Guilford Press.


(Oddly enough, I'm also reading a great funny novel which explores this topic, too. It's called "The Irresistible Henry House." Fun read).

 

[okiedokietoo]

I do not believe Kc knew Caylee was dead. She thought she was with someone. As a matter of fact, I do not believe the Le even know when Caylee died. Kc is not Sp. He had motive, he was going out with a very beautiful young woman. His wife was just in his way. That is what I call motive. Kc loved Caylee. On many occasions thru text or email she expressed that she could not go out because she had Caylee. She was doing the right thing. No reason for me to believe something snapped after 2 and a half years.

Kc could not help search, she had an ankle bracelet on. I would never expect a grieving person to search for their loved one. As far as looking into it, the defense said on 48 hours that she did have someone looking into it. I think many are going to become surprised come trial time. IMO

Hey you 1000+ poster
1)SP -- it's sort of the same situation because TL told KC that she could stay at his apt but Caylee could not, I think something along the lines of it not being a suitable place for a child - maybe not a separate room for Caylee etc
2)texts, emails stating she couldn't go out because she had Caylee --
weren't some of those made in the "31 days" time frame and she was with TL and places unknown- times before the "31 days" were days CA wouldn't babysit imo
3)KC searching -- she didn't search during the "31 days", her mother tracks her down, in jail out jail..., and an ankle bracelet that prevents her from going out and searching. A LE monitored ankle bracelet would be a perfectly convenient excuse for someone that has no intentions of ever searching
IMO she didn't just snap after 2 1/2 years, she has always been off