Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #10 *Arrest*
- Thread starter TootsieFootsie
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Ugh, from your link:Full detail of EP’s messages to online friends in DM article…..so much resentment, in my opinion.
“and I would hope they care about their grandchildren enough to care about what Simon is doing. Don said they tried to talk to him, but he refused to talk about it, so they're staying out of it, but want us to pray together. I'm sick of this s***. I want nothing to do with them. I thought his parents would want him to do the right thing, but it seems their concern about not wanting to feel uncomfortable, and not wanting to get involved in their son's personal matters, are overriding that. So* them.”
Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates
Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.www.dailymail.co.uk
22:52
Patterson's Facebook messages about in-laws and estranged husband Simon are read to jury
Patterson showed little emotion and stared blankly at the screen containing the messages with her online friends.Crown prosecutor Jane Warren read the content of the texts to the court.
1. I said to him about 50 times yesterday, but I didn't want them to adjudicate (emoji) nobody bloody listens to me, at least I know they're a lost cause.
2. I wonder if they've got any capacity for self-reflection at all. I mean clearly the fact that Simon refuses to talk about personal issues in part stems from the behaviour of his parents and how they operate. According to them, they've never asked him what's going on with us, why I keep kicking him out, why his son hates him, etc. It's too awkward or uncomfortable or something. So that's his learned behaviour. Just don't talk about this s***.
3. Know nothing, but also more happened. John rang me last night to say that he thought there was a solution to all this. If Simon and I get together and try to talk and pray together. (Emoji, emoji) And then he also said, Simon had indicated there was a solution to the financial issues if I withdraw this child support claim?!
4. My head nearly exploded and I was like, what, what? I'm sorry, what?? And Don goes, oh sorry, just ignore what I've said. I don't want to get involved. So anyway, I sent a group message to them all last night saying how Simon is behaving is unconscionable and asking me to withdraw the child support plan is wrong and disadvantages me and his children, and how dare you, etc. Don messaged to say that he and Gail don't want to get involved in the financial things. But just hope we will pray for the kids (Emoji) So I replied this morning saying, I understand it's uncomfortable and awkward for them, but I want to copy them into this stuff because Simon needs to be accountable for the decisions he is making that are hurting his children, and I would hope they care about their grandchildren enough to care about what Simon is doing. Don said they tried to talk to him, but he refused to talk about it, so they're staying out of it, but want us to pray together. I'm sick of this s***. I want nothing to do with them. I thought his parents would want him to do the right thing, but it seems their concern about not wanting to feel uncomfortable, and not wanting to get involved in their son's personal matters, are overriding that. So
* them.5. His parents sent me a message yesterday afternoon and Simon sent me one last night, but I've read neither and I don't think I will. I don't want to hear it. Simon's will just be horrible and be gaslighting and abusive and it will ruin my day and his parents will be more weasel words about not getting involved. So I think I'm going to just move on. I don't need anything from these people. Simon's parents say they don't want to take sides, but by the very actions they have. Daughter came to them, laying all the same complaints about her husband that I did about Simon. They would never say to her, ‘Oh well, we can't believe you until we hear (his) side’ right now it's your word against his’. No, they would just believe that if their daughter's husband just walked away and refused to support her kids, they would have things to say to him. But by refusing to hold Simon to account, they've made it clear his word means more than mine. So that speaks volumes, even if they claim they haven't taken sides. They've had Simon fatigue every night for three months and never once picked up the phone to me since the separation and asked if I'm okay and need help. So that tells me their choices. Simon wants to walk away from his responsibilities too, well that's his choice. Maybe it's easier if he's not involved in even paying their school fees. Means I can choose their school all by myself and don't have to refer to him. If he wants them to go to a private Christian school, then he can help pay for it. If he doesn't want me to help, sorry, if he doesn't want to help pay for it, then I don't have to send them there, do I? So maybe it just means I have even more freedom about my choices, blessing in disguise.
7. A message sent to erinerinerin from another participant: Will you still go to that church?
8. I haven't been to their church in months, kids go with Simon every second Sunday and came to one with me at Leongatha the other Sunday.
9. His mum was horrified I had claimed child support. Why isn't she horrified her son is such a deadbeat that I had no choice but to claim? That's the content of that.
No. Erin’s defense made it clear that she lied:
ERIN Patterson lied to the police about foraging for wild mushrooms.
Defence counsel for the woman accused of cooking a meal of beef Wellington, containing death cap mushrooms on Saturday, July 29, 2023, Colin Mandy SC, acknowledged that in his opening remarks way back at the start of the triple murder trial.
“She also lied to the police about foraging for mushrooms,” said Mr Mandy to the jury on Day Two of the trial in the Supreme Court at Morwell on Wednesday, April 30.
“She admits that,” he said.
“She did forage for mushrooms. Just so that we make that clear, she denies that she ever deliberately sought out death cap mushrooms.”
Murder allegations, lies and the hazards of mushrooming - South Gippsland Sentinel Times
ERIN Patterson lied to the police about foraging for wild mushrooms. Defence counsel for the woman accused of cooking a meal of beef Wellington, containing death cap mushrooms on Saturday, July 29, 2023, Colin Mandy SC, acknowledged that in his...www.sgst.com.au
The reason for all the testimony is because the jury must deliberate on the facts of the case, not just what prosecution and defense assert in opening statements.
And if I was the prosecutor I’d drive home how Erin’s lies negatively affected so many in the community. Sending authorities on wild goose chases is terrible.
I do not see anything that shows that the defence has admitted to lying about the Asian grocer. The links you have supplied only admit to lying about the foraging, as far as I can see. The defence argument could be that she could have obtained mushrooms from both foraging and the Asian grocers. Maybe I am just not seeing the reason that the admitted foraging lie leads you to infer admission of an Asian grocer lie.
The ABC link mentions The below as a summary point to the more detailed reporting in the live blog for that day:
"
- 4.The defence says initial statements made to police by Ms Patterson — that she did not own a food dehydrator, that she had bought mushrooms from an Asian grocer and that she had not foraged for mushrooms — were lies brought on by her panicking.
But it is never mentioned in the detailed report of the blog (unless I am mistaken or blind).
I think it may have been summarised incorrectly. Is there any other media links that state it more explicitly?
It is not the first time a point from the opening statement has caused confusion. for example whether the death cap toxin was found in the leftovers or not as there were opposing reports. We now know that they were both kind of right, as one expert ruled it out based on not finding it under microscope, but a different expert found death cap DNA from testing at the chemical level.
IMO
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Key Event
5m ago
After they finish, Justice Beale signals an end for the day's proceedings and court is adjourned.
We'll return for a shortened day tomorrow.
www.abc.net.au
5m ago
Court is adjourned
By Judd Boaz
The prosecution concludes its rundown of the table, outlining the time and date of each factory reset.After they finish, Justice Beale signals an end for the day's proceedings and court is adjourned.
We'll return for a shortened day tomorrow.
Live: Erin Patterson told online friends she wanted 'nothing to do with' relatives, court told
Erin Patterson is charged with murdering three relatives by serving them a beef Wellington meal that contained death cap mushrooms. Follow the trial live.
www.abc.net.au
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Well, there's her motive to allegedly target his in-laws!Ugh, from your link:
22:52
Patterson's Facebook messages about in-laws and estranged husband Simon are read to jury
Patterson showed little emotion and stared blankly at the screen containing the messages with her online friends.
Crown prosecutor Jane Warren read the content of the texts to the court.
1. I said to him about 50 times yesterday, but I didn't want them to adjudicate (emoji) nobody bloody listens to me, at least I know they're a lost cause.
2. I wonder if they've got any capacity for self-reflection at all. I mean clearly the fact that Simon refuses to talk about personal issues in part stems from the behaviour of his parents and how they operate. According to them, they've never asked him what's going on with us, why I keep kicking him out, why his son hates him, etc. It's too awkward or uncomfortable or something. So that's his learned behaviour. Just don't talk about this s***.
3. Know nothing, but also more happened. John rang me last night to say that he thought there was a solution to all this. If Simon and I get together and try to talk and pray together. (Emoji, emoji) And then he also said, Simon had indicated there was a solution to the financial issues if I withdraw this child support claim?!
4. My head nearly exploded and I was like, what, what? I'm sorry, what?? And Don goes, oh sorry, just ignore what I've said. I don't want to get involved. So anyway, I sent a group message to them all last night saying how Simon is behaving is unconscionable and asking me to withdraw the child support plan is wrong and disadvantages me and his children, and how dare you, etc. Don messaged to say that he and Gail don't want to get involved in the financial things. But just hope we will pray for the kids (Emoji) So I replied this morning saying, I understand it's uncomfortable and awkward for them, but I want to copy them into this stuff because Simon needs to be accountable for the decisions he is making that are hurting his children, and I would hope they care about their grandchildren enough to care about what Simon is doing. Don said they tried to talk to him, but he refused to talk about it, so they're staying out of it, but want us to pray together. I'm sick of this s***. I want nothing to do with them. I thought his parents would want him to do the right thing, but it seems their concern about not wanting to feel uncomfortable, and not wanting to get involved in their son's personal matters, are overriding that. So
5. His parents sent me a message yesterday afternoon and Simon sent me one last night, but I've read neither and I don't think I will. I don't want to hear it. Simon's will just be horrible and be gaslighting and abusive and it will ruin my day and his parents will be more weasel words about not getting involved. So I think I'm going to just move on. I don't need anything from these people. Simon's parents say they don't want to take sides, but by the very actions they have. Daughter came to them, laying all the same complaints about her husband that I did about Simon. They would never say to her, ‘Oh well, we can't believe you until we hear (his) side’ right now it's your word against his’. No, they would just believe that if their daughter's husband just walked away and refused to support her kids, they would have things to say to him. But by refusing to hold Simon to account, they've made it clear his word means more than mine. So that speaks volumes, even if they claim they haven't taken sides. They've had Simon fatigue every night for three months and never once picked up the phone to me since the separation and asked if I'm okay and need help. So that tells me their choices. Simon wants to walk away from his responsibilities too, well that's his choice. Maybe it's easier if he's not involved in even paying their school fees. Means I can choose their school all by myself and don't have to refer to him. If he wants them to go to a private Christian school, then he can help pay for it. If he doesn't want me to help, sorry, if he doesn't want to help pay for it, then I don't have to send them there, do I? So maybe it just means I have even more freedom about my choices, blessing in disguise.
7. A message sent to erinerinerin from another participant: Will you still go to that church?
8. I haven't been to their church in months, kids go with Simon every second Sunday and came to one with me at Leongatha the other Sunday.
9. His mum was horrified I had claimed child support. Why isn't she horrified her son is such a deadbeat that I had no choice but to claim? That's the content of that.
Very damning evidence
What is the prosecution alluding to with the photos of the mushrooms?
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No this is a very small group from a larger group who had become friends from within a true crime group.
Samsung phone taken from Erin Patterson's home
By Judd Boaz
The prosecution presents a Samsung phone that was seized by police from Erin's home.Data was then extracted by police.
The first pieces of evidence we see from the phone are Facebook messages.
!====
The above from the ABC live blog.
I wonder how police were able to access the phone, assuming it had ether password or biometric access security. I assume Erin did not help them with this.
Secondly, how would they get past the data encryption, or could it have been an older phone without encryption?
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I want to make it clear I'm not asserting particular guilt or innocence. IMO EP seems like the sort of person who cannot, or finds it very difficult to, take 'no' for an answer. And a strong sense of feeling scorned by others who see things differently to her. 'Gaslighting', 'abusive', all sorts of "therapy language" that can also be weaponised. Obviously I don't know the full situation, none of us do, but this sort of rage expressed through text is terrifying. IMO JMO
Vortexaire
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I think the prosecution is trying to confirm that there is 100% certainty that Erin wouldn't get the Death Caps mixed up with benign edible mushrooms. But I'd like to see how this plays out in court over the coming days.
So basically:
no mix up -> Erin was deliberately planning to at least murder someone for months.
However, it seems like the mushroom expert testified that it is possible to get edible vs poisonous mushrooms mixed up as shown in The Guardian article here: Distinguishing between edible and poisonous fungi is difficult, mushroom expert tells Erin Patterson trial
So now I am interested in how the prosecution would handle this and what the jury would think. Essentially now the prosecution's witnesses are basically contradicting each other. But I wonder how both the defense and prosecution would handle the web of evidence.
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Defence counsel Colin Mandy, SC, said Erin Patterson did not feign her illness in the aftermath of the lunch, but that she was unwell because she had eaten some of the meal.
“Prosecution says, ‘Well, she got rid of the dehydrator that makes her look guilty’. She admits that. She admits that when she was interviewed by the police on the same day that one of the lunch guests died, she lied about getting rid of the dehydrator,” Mandy told the jury.
Mandy said Erin had lied to the police about foraging for mushrooms.
“She admits that she did forage for mushrooms. Just so that we make that clear, she denies that she ever deliberately sought out death cap mushrooms,” the barrister said.
Alleged mushroom cook didn’t ingest death caps, ‘no record’ she had cancer, jury told: Trial day one, as it happened
Erin Patterson is facing trial after pleading not guilty over a fatal mushroom lunch. Today, Nanette Rogers, SC, will present the prosecution’s case against Patterson.
At no time (unfortunately we never get just transcripts and can only go by what journalists are relaying to us in part) did he say 'she lied about foraging for mushrooms but still holds that she purchased mushrooms from an Asian grocer somewhere' or anything of the sort. Simply, she lied about foraging and the fact those mushrooms made their way into lunch was a tragic accident.
On Wednesday, Don's other son, Matthew Patterson, told the jury he had called Patterson on direction from toxicology doctors at Dandenong Hospital to ask her where she had sourced the mushrooms.
Patterson also told him they had come from the local Woolworths and a Chinese grocer, the jury heard.
'The defence case is that she panicked because she was overwhelmed by the fact that these four people had become so ill because of the food that she'd served to them,' Mr Mandy said in opening the case.
'Three people died because of the food that Erin Patterson served that day.
'It is not an issue that very early on there was intense public health scrutiny, police scrutiny, media scrutiny.
'So when you're considering that evidence, the evidence of her behaviour after the lunch, you'll need to think about these questions.'
Deaths, tears, and kids caught up: Erin Patterson murder trial recap
Hunched over a laundry sink vomiting, Heather Wilkinson could not have imagined the pain that lay ahead.
ie all these lies were due to panic, rather than covering up ill-intent.
The defence line of questioning today was clearly just trying to keep some reasonable doubt in the jury's mind. There's no way they can possibly even still be trying to go with the 'Asian grocer' line when its pretty clear that's not a possibility.
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How much time, resources and money from the limited budget did this needless search cost Victoria?
I just watched 9 News and they said that Erin did 4 factory resets on her phone that was in the possession of police.
And yet that's exactly what the defence are doing...Defence counsel Colin Mandy, SC, said Erin Patterson did not feign her illness in the aftermath of the lunch, but that she was unwell because she had eaten some of the meal.
“Prosecution says, ‘Well, she got rid of the dehydrator that makes her look guilty’. She admits that. She admits that when she was interviewed by the police on the same day that one of the lunch guests died, she lied about getting rid of the dehydrator,” Mandy told the jury.
Mandy said Erin had lied to the police about foraging for mushrooms.
“She admits that she did forage for mushrooms. Just so that we make that clear, she denies that she ever deliberately sought out death cap mushrooms,” the barrister said.
Alleged mushroom cook didn’t ingest death caps, ‘no record’ she had cancer, jury told: Trial day one, as it happened
Erin Patterson is facing trial after pleading not guilty over a fatal mushroom lunch. Today, Nanette Rogers, SC, will present the prosecution’s case against Patterson.www.watoday.com.au
At no time (unfortunately we never get just transcripts and can only go by what journalists are relaying to us in part) did he say 'she lied about foraging for mushrooms but still holds that she purchased mushrooms from an Asian grocer somewhere' or anything of the sort. Simply, she lied about foraging and the fact those mushrooms made their way into lunch was a tragic accident.
On Wednesday, Don's other son, Matthew Patterson, told the jury he had called Patterson on direction from toxicology doctors at Dandenong Hospital to ask her where she had sourced the mushrooms.
Patterson also told him they had come from the local Woolworths and a Chinese grocer, the jury heard.
'The defence case is that she panicked because she was overwhelmed by the fact that these four people had become so ill because of the food that she'd served to them,' Mr Mandy said in opening the case.
'Three people died because of the food that Erin Patterson served that day.
'It is not an issue that very early on there was intense public health scrutiny, police scrutiny, media scrutiny.
'So when you're considering that evidence, the evidence of her behaviour after the lunch, you'll need to think about these questions.'
Deaths, tears, and kids caught up: Erin Patterson murder trial recap
Hunched over a laundry sink vomiting, Heather Wilkinson could not have imagined the pain that lay ahead.
ie all these lies were due to panic, rather than covering up ill-intent.
The defence line of questioning today was clearly just trying to keep some reasonable doubt in the jury's mind. There's no way they can possibly even still be trying to go with the 'Asian grocer' line when its pretty clear that's not a possibility.
honestly the questioning felt pretty weak to me. Like oooohhhh but you didn't look at EVERY mushroom in EVERY store EVERYWHERE so you don't reaaalllly know for sure!!!!!!!!!!!And yet that's exactly what the defence are doing...
I'm being facetious but you get my point. It's okay, they're just doing their job.
They've got to keep the prosecution on their toes and doing everything right and making the case airtight.
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