Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #10 *Arrest*

[Detechtive]

Agreed. Everyone has their own priorities in how they spend their money. But I don't see how this is relevant to the case.

Because money goes to motive.

 

[Yh5r]

Key Event
2m ago

More on those Facebook messages​

By Kristian Silva​

To add some further context, the court was shown what appears to be a more comprehensive account of the Facebook conversation Erin Patterson allegedly had with her Facebook friends in December 2022.

This was the same exchange we heard about earlier in the trial, where a person using the Erin ErinErin account labelled Simon Patterson a "deadbeat" and said, "this family I swear to *ing god".

We now saw some of the replies in the chat, namely from a "Jenny Hay" account. Jenny Hay was also a witness earlier in this trial.

In the messages, Jenny labels Simon Patterson "pathetic" and a "s*** dad".

How does this prove anything.

Obviously EP would have first started complaining about Simon and the in laws and her online friend just wanted to 'support' her by using the same aggressive and vulgar language.

This is super common IMO and the feelings were first expressed by Erin so I find the friend confirming Erin's feelings completely irrelevant.

 

[Detechtive]

How does this prove anything.

Obviously EP would have first started complaining about Simon and the in laws and her online friend just wanted to 'support' her by using the same aggressive and vulgar language.

This is super common IMO and the feelings were first expressed by Erin so I find the friend confirming Erin's feelings completely irrelevant.

I think he's trying to say that Erin is innocent of being nasty because her friends were, too.

IMO it weakens the defence.

 

[MsMarple]

1m ago

Signal messages between Erin and Don Patterson​

By Judd Boaz​

Messages from the app Signal between Erin Patterson and her in-laws are shown to the court.

The messages date back to January 2022.

Earlier in the trial, we heard Erin, Simon, Don and Gail Patterson were in a group chat together on Signal, and discussed issues such as child support on it.

Simon Patterson also told the court that his mother eventually stopped looking at messages from Erin due to the anxiety it caused her.

The messages from January 2022 deal with Erin's struggles with back pain, with the older Patterson's offering their sympathies.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I'm not debating you, just offering a different perspective.

Sometimes people can be stingy about certain things, at certain times. Things they don't want to be paying lots of money for (a replacement phone, beef wellington - even though by choice). It's complex. For example:

In Australia, we'd love to pay $25 for an expensive restaurant meal on a special occasion day (Christmas, Mother's day etc). I paid $99 for a high tea on Mother's Day, yet I consider myself somewhat stingy. That amount usually covers a meal for my family out at a budget/average restaurant. The reason? It was a splurge for a special occasion, I can afford it, it was the going rate (we shopped around), and we wanted to take my elderly mother out for a fancy one-off type event. Yet the very next day I can be shopping around, comparing 2 pairs of pants and choosing the cheaper one just because it's cheaper. Or putting an item back because it's expensive - to me - for what it is. Or comparing flights and accommodation so I can save a small amount, just because it's a better deal. I generally like value for money and my pricing seems to be stuck in the 90's.

Maybe Erin was only sting with food when it came to buying it for Simon's relatives?

 

[Yh5r]

Because money goes to motive.

Has this officially been stated? IMO the motive is that she felt more and more excluded from and unsupported by Simon (and one way this showed was through her losing the family tax benefit when he labelled himself as "separated" on his tax return) and the family and grew resentful. Her anger turned into hatred and hence her actions of allegedly poisoning them.

 

[MrJ]

I think he's trying to say that Erin is innocent of being nasty because her friends were, too.

IMO it weakens the defence.

perhaps Mr Mandy should remember the phrase it takes two to tango.

 

[Yh5r]

I think he's trying to say that Erin is innocent of being nasty because her friends were, too.

IMO it weakens the defence.

Ridiculous and weak point by the defence IMO. Like I said and most people with some common sense would agree that the feelings were first voiced by EP and the friend then confirmed her feelings to show 'support' and 'agreement'.

It's not even about the vulgar language. Even if she had said "I can't stand them, I can't take them anymore, Simon is not paying his way" (without any vulgar language) etc it would have still been a motive regardless. The fact is that she voiced strong feelings against them to her online friends and then publicly pretended that she loved them.

 

[MsMarple]

Key Event
1m ago

Court is adjourned​

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy continues detailing messages between Erin and her in-laws, before stopping.

He informs Justice Beale that he can go no further with his cross-examination until legal issues are sorted without the presence of the jury.

Justice Beale takes the opportunity to adjourn court early for the day.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

1m ago

Signal messages between Erin and Don Patterson​

By Judd Boaz​

Messages from the app Signal between Erin Patterson and her in-laws are shown to the court.

The messages date back to January 2022.

Earlier in the trial, we heard Erin, Simon, Don and Gail Patterson were in a group chat together on Signal, and discussed issues such as child support on it.

Simon Patterson also told the court that his mother eventually stopped looking at messages from Erin due to the anxiety it caused her.

The messages from January 2022 deal with Erin's struggles with back pain, with the older Patterson's offering their sympathies.

I really don't understand why Simon's parents were included in a group chat with Simon and Erin re topics like child support?

 

[katydid23]

Erin Patterson murder trial day 22 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

Mandy shows the court Facebook messages from a group chat with Patterson and her online friends from December 2022.

The prosecution previously showed the messages to the jury. Mandy says the messages shown to the court earlier in the trial did not include the context of the discussion with Patterson’s friends.

One message shows a response to Paterson saying her in-laws could not “adjudicate” her dispute with Simon.

Jenny Hay, who previously testified in the trial, replies: “What morons!”

Mandy asks if the context of the messages demonstrate that the group members were venting about issues in their lives.

Eppingstall says:

That’s fair to say

Mandy then shows the court messages between Patterson and her father-in-law, Don.

The messages are between 1 January 2022 to 15 January 2022, the court hears.

The first message from Don is on 1 January 2022:

Sorry to hear about your back problems. Hope and pray it gets better quickly.

It was great to chat to the kids this morning...

Patterson replies on the same day:

Hi Don. Thanks for your empathy and care about my back. Yes, I had a terrible day yesterday and the night before...

In another message, Patterson messages Don about Covid on 7 January 2022, the court hears.

26 active cases in Korumburra and 51 in Leongatha. please be careful when out and about because there’s so much virus in our community right now.

 

[MsMarple]

DBM

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Maybe it had eased off? We don't know. 3 hours away from a toilet? You don't think there are public toilets between Leongatha and Tyabb?

Service stations and perhaps a McDonalds, but there wouldn't be many, if any public toilets.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Your questions, answered on the Mushroom Case Daily podcast​

​

Court reporter Kristian Silva and producer Stephen Stockwell are answering all your burning questions about the Erin Patterson case on the Mushroom Case Daily podcast.​

​

Q: Does the prosecution need to prove motive at all or just evidence that the crime occurred? Maybe I've missed something, but I haven't really heard why Erin Patterson would do this, and that is my biggest question in this case. - Emma​

​

A: It is a really great question.​

​

It is a topic that was addressed at the very start of this case when the judge was taking the jury through some instructions about what they'll need to consider in this trial.​

​

He took them to the four elements of the charge of murder, and spoiler alert, motive is not one of them.​

​

So in answer to your question, the prosecution does not have to prove motive but there are a bunch of things that they do have to prove. So let's go through them:​

​

1. 1.There are four elements to the charge of murder that the prosecution will need to prove beyond reasonable doubt for Erin Patterson to be found guilty. The first element is — did Erin Patterson cause the deaths of the lunch guests? If the jury is satisfied of that, they can move on to the second element.
2. 2.The second element is, did she do it deliberately? If the jury is satisfied of that they move on to the next.
3. 3.Did she do it with an intention to kill them or to cause them really serious injury?
4. 4.If they're satisfied of that, we can get to the final point. And that's, did she commit the killing without a lawful justification or excuse? A lawful justification or excuse could be something like self-defense. Evidently that is not something that's relevant in this case.

The judge has said that intent is definitely one of the key things that the jury will have to look at. The defence, through their barrister, Colin Mandy, pointed out to the jury in his openings that Ms Patterson did not deliberately poison the lunch guests with death cap mushrooms.​

​

So two topics there that the jury will definitely have to weigh up.​

​

In my opinion it's Number 4 that will get her off. Did she intend to make them sick, or to kill them?

 

[Deleted member 363451]

That's a great list

Great list.

I would add to the Pre-Lunch smoking guns that she stated these dried mushrooms were "funny smelling" and didn't suit a previous carbonara dish so she chose to put them into an eleborate and expensive meal like Beef Wellington. Together with the other things on your list and the fact that she had bought so many mushrooms from Woolies already, it is a smoking gun to me.

In total, she'd purchased well over the 1kg of mushrooms from Woollies, needed for her recipe...

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I cannot wait to hear about any texts between Simon and Erin following the hospitalisations of Don, Gail, Heather and Ian.

I chuckled at her putting her sim in the old Nokia. Must've thought the police were stupid.

They were in some respects by leaving her with the phone on her own for 20 minutes when they were supposed to be gathering evidence. That phone was one of the major parts of evidence. It beggars belief.

 

[MrJ]

They were in some respects by leaving her with the phone on her own for 20 minutes when they were supposed to be gathering evidence. That phone was one of the major parts of evidence. It beggars belief.

to call her lawyer IIRC? and they let her do that without supervision? that’s just careless imo

 

[tmar]

to call her lawyer IIRC? and they let her do that without supervision? that’s just careless imo

It shows how sly she is.

 

[Detechtive]

Has this officially been stated? IMO the motive is that she felt more and more excluded from and unsupported by Simon (and one way this showed was through her losing the family tax benefit when he labelled himself as "separated" on his tax return) and the family and grew resentful. Her anger turned into hatred and hence her actions of allegedly poisoning them.

No, but in the majority of poisonings money is the key motive.

Him putting "separated" on his tax return seemed to be a kick off event in this matter, IMO. That is in my opinion, because it has financial consequences for Erin.

Besides, it's my opinion that money is a motive or at least, a mitigating factor based on the trial evidence.

 

[SouthAussie]

to call her lawyer IIRC? and they let her do that without supervision? that’s just careless imo

I don't think the police are allowed to be present for a person's conversation with their lawyer, unless the person lets them.

imo