Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #11 *Arrest*

[BreakingNews]

"It is doubtful that results from lie detector tests will ever be held admissible in Australian criminal courts.

While proponents of polygraph evidence claim that test results are a definitive indication of the veracity of an accused's denial of guilt, such the results are hearsay and amount to a self-serving statement which is inadmissible at both common law, and pursuant to statutory rules of evidence.

Further, there does not appear to be any general acceptance of the validity and reliability of polygraphs within the Australian scientific community."

(NSW is the only state with polygraph legislation. New South Wales Lie Detectors Act (1983), which prohibits the use of polygraph results in criminal trials and in other specific situations - such as employment.)

austlii - Trial By Ordeal? Polygraph Testing In Australia

Where lie detectors fall down when a person believes in theif

Another consideration is guarding of the prisoners. In some court buildings (such as the Downing Centre in Sydney) there are separate passages for moving prisoners between prison vans and courtrooms.

And the court room and the cell

 

[HoneyBunOne]

I'm not saying Erin is one, but I've known some ones who have answers for everything, and it's the ease and speed of their answers that lend to initial believe, but when held ip to the light of reason, fall apart fast.

She got rid of the dehydrator because she panicked? She panicked because Simon supposedly asked her if she used it to poison the victims?

Um. Wouldn't you produce the dehydrator? To show you'd done no such thing?

Wouldn't you answer every question asked of you by hospital staff and the health department, adding every bit of additional information that might be helpful? Wouldn't you prioritize those conversations?

She wanted Simon to drive her to the hospital and yet she could drive over hill and dale without complication, apparently successful in managing her explosive diarrhea by sitting on her bum, which is not a solution most people would trust. In light colored knickers, no less.

Doesn't want the children pulled from school because it would be too upsetting for them.

She must have been awfully confident no toxin touched their lips. And how could she? How could she have that confidence?

Would you dine at a restaurant that even just one time cooked with death cap mushrooms? How could she be certain the children hadn't ingested a single spore? Unless somehow she monitored the segregation of ingredients? One set of contaminated BW. One set uncontaminated, fin which she must magically have drawn the BW portion she served herself and the unassembled version she served the children. That's some remarkable luck.

JMO

BBM - The Russian Roulette of beef wellingtons perhaps? Lucky Erin.

I think Erin had curated a family of people who accepted her explanations without pressing (likely to keep the peace or from pure exhaustion).

I think her text messages reveal what happens when she's challenged. When new stories make even less sense, she gets angry at the people who push back.

Simon was correct to list them as separated but look at how she gaslit into him, making him wrong for doing the right thing.

In-laws staying out of marital issues is wise.

Her public statement is four paragraphs of words about making a statement, without ever really making one.

Knowing her guests, including Simon's parents, were deathly ill, she tried to make him choose her over them. Thankfully he chose right and left her to cork her way to the hospital while he focused on the four actual emergencies.

JMO

I agree that Erin seems to have gathered people around her that she could manipulate in a way, and if that proved difficult she'd push back and over power them.

* Her children are underage and in her "control" so to speak. At least for now.
* She had a "woe is me" attitude with her in laws during all those message exchanges, whereby she tried to manipulate them into seeing her side.
*She had a handful of online friends who didn't seem to call her out on anything.
*She got hostile towards Simon when he stood up to her and then called HIM out as problematic.

That seems to be the extent of her circle, despite being involved in church, producing the local newsletter and whatever else she may have been a part of in the area.

The people she didn't appear to have a relationship with could be seen as quite telling:

*She has one sister who she appears to be estranged from, no mention of any nieces, nephews, aunts or uncles from either side of her family.
*No old work colleagues she stayed in touch with.
*No friends through the kids school.
*No neighbourhood connections.
*No real life friends.

Only a handful of people close to her. I also have a small circle around me, I chose that because I've had enough drama and BS in my life and just want a quiet life with those closest to me I can trust. My personal choice, nothing more. I'm a no drama llama! Erin could be the same, but I personally think she may have alienated herself from people in her life, until she only had family left, and a few online friends who could be at arms length if they chose.

 

[SouthAussie]

Another consideration is guarding of the prisoners. In some court buildings (such as the Downing Centre in Sydney) there are separate passages for moving prisoners between prison vans and courtrooms.

(Also) I read that, in Victoria's Supreme Court, the accused sits in the dock at the back of the court - as per the below link.

Obviously, in Morwell this isn't a consideration - even though this is a Supreme Court trial - because Morwell courtroom is how it is. But it sounds as though the Supreme Court in the city has docks at the rear of their courtrooms.

7 - Accused​

In a criminal trial, the accused is seated in the dock at the back of the courtroom.

Explainer: Criminal courtroom

A criminal courtroom in the Supreme Court will have a judge, a judge's associate, tipstaff, a jury, and lawyers in attendance, each playing an essential role in Court proceedings.

www.supremecourt.vic.gov.au

 

[mamamama9873]

BBM - The Russian Roulette of beef wellingtons perhaps? Lucky Erin.


I agree that Erin seems to have gathered people around her that she could manipulate in a way, and if that proved difficult she'd push back and over power them.

* Her children are underage and in her "control" so to speak. At least for now.
* She had a "woe is me" attitude with her in laws during all those message exchanges, whereby she tried to manipulate them into seeing her side.
*She had a handful of online friends who didn't seem to call her out on anything.
*She got hostile towards Simon when he stood up to her and then called HIM out as problematic.

That seems to be the extent of her circle, despite being involved in church, producing the local newsletter and whatever else she may have been a part of in the area.

The people she didn't appear to have a relationship with could be seen as quite telling:

*She has one sister who she appears to be estranged from, no mention of any nieces, nephews, aunts or uncles from either side of her family.
*No old work colleagues she stayed in touch with.
*No friends through the kids school.
*No neighbourhood connections.
*No real life friends.

Only a handful of people close to her. I also have a small circle around me, I chose that because I've had enough drama and BS in my life and just want a quiet life with those closest to me I can trust. My personal choice, nothing more. I'm a no drama llama! Erin could be the same, but I personally think she may have alienated herself from people in her life, until she only had family left, and a few online friends who could be at arms length if they chose.

Such good points if it is in fact true that she didn’t have any other friends outside of her outside friends.

Highly unusual for a mum with 2 children not to have close relations with other mums and children of similar age (my children are a bit older than hers and myself and all other mums I know started friendships with mums of children the same ages and are still close to them years later).

The fact that she decided to keep such a small circle, meant that she placed so much importance on the relationship with Simon’s parents. When she felt she was losing her status and acceptance in the family, it meant a whole lot more to her than it likely would have to a woman who had a more fulfilled social life outside of family relations.

 

[mamamama9873]

Along the lines of Erin’s small circle, I have been contemplating whether the large inheritances actually ended up being curse in Erin’s life?

With the financial freedom they gave her, she didn’t have to work - which at first might seem like a dream.

But instead of using that time to build something meaningful, she seemed to spiral inward - researching medical conditions, death caps and venting online. No career, no colleagues, no workplace recognition or friendships beyond her tiny circle.

It feels like her extreme focus on the in-laws stemmed from that small world and a deep need for recognition and belonging. Once she felt shut out by the in-laws, it hit much harder than it might have otherwise or a person with a wider social circle.

In the end, I really think the lack of purpose and external validation played a big role in what happened. Her large inheritances gave her freedom - but were they ultimately a slow, isolating curse?

Curious to hear what others think.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

Along the lines of Erin’s small circle, I have been contemplating whether the large inheritances actually ended up being curse in Erin’s life?

With the financial freedom they gave her, she didn’t have to work - which at first might seem like a dream.

But instead of using that time to build something meaningful, she seemed to spiral inward - researching medical conditions, death caps and venting online. No career, no colleagues, no workplace recognition or friendships beyond her tiny circle.

It feels like her extreme focus on the in-laws stemmed from that small world and a deep need for recognition and belonging. Once she felt shut out by the in-laws, it hit much harder than it might have otherwise or a person with a wider social circle.

In the end, I really think the lack of purpose and external validation played a big role in what happened. Her large inheritances gave her freedom - but were they ultimately a slow, isolating curse?

Curious to hear what others think.

I do agree, except for the fact I'm not certain her inheritances were the reason she didn't work. I don't think she worked once the first child came along, I think she was a SAHM from that point on. I'm not sure of the timeline of children's births and inheritances, so it's hard to say if the inherited money played a part in her staying home to raise the kids. Isn't Simon an engineer? In theory, he should potentially make enough money to support a family on his wage.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

IMO she’s a very accomplished liar. … to the Police face she insists Never has she foraged for mushrooms !
Then Lo & behold, somewhere along the line her defence team has convinced her that she needs to fess up about some of her lies, so they opened the trial by clearing the air in saying :
she Did Lie about having foraged for mushrooms
she Did Lie about having & disposing of a dehydrator
she Did Lie about having cancer.

This is quite a well written article: Murder allegations, lies and the hazards of mushrooming - South Gippsland Sentinel Times

All my opinion.

With a wrap sheet like that it is hard to take anything she says seriously.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Highly unusual for a mum with 2 children not to have close relations with other mums and children of similar age

I don't think it's unusual for some women to struggle with finding close friendships, despite having children who go to school. I see (online) and hear (in real life) women say this , "I don't really have close friends." Not everyone is socially gifted, or they may actually close themselves off from others to avoid rejection. The loneliness problem is worse since Covid, especially if someone isn't socially confident.

I think she struggled but also that she's very... psychologically complex.

 

[Kemug]

she Did Lie about having foraged for mushrooms
she Did Lie about having & disposing of a dehydrator
she Did Lie about having cancer.

RSBM
Just those 3 admitted lies are almost enough to convict her, IMO. And let's not forget that said dehydrator had remnants of Death Caps in it. That dehydrator that had not had a previous owner.

 

[Jake18]

Along the lines of Erin’s small circle, I have been contemplating whether the large inheritances actually ended up being curse in Erin’s life?

With the financial freedom they gave her, she didn’t have to work - which at first might seem like a dream.

But instead of using that time to build something meaningful, she seemed to spiral inward - researching medical conditions, death caps and venting online. No career, no colleagues, no workplace recognition or friendships beyond her tiny circle.

It feels like her extreme focus on the in-laws stemmed from that small world and a deep need for recognition and belonging. Once she felt shut out by the in-laws, it hit much harder than it might have otherwise or a person with a wider social circle.

In the end, I really think the lack of purpose and external validation played a big role in what happened. Her large inheritances gave her freedom - but were they ultimately a slow, isolating curse?

Curious to hear what others think.

I agree. I’m not saying that everyone has to work or they’ll end up (allegedly) murdering their in-laws, but work creates a rhythm and purpose to a day.

It doesn’t have to be paid work - painting or writing would fulfil the same purpose, as would an absorbing creative hobby or volunteering or sport but she doesn’t seem to have done very much. Except Lego - on the ABC podcast they mentioned that she had a lot of Lego on display and we know she was doing it in her room after the lunch.

Simon and Erin have been separated for a while. I wonder if he’s been dating again? It might be information deemed inadmissible to the court. Or would his faith make that less likely?

 

[Parker Knoll]

(Also) I read that, in Victoria's Supreme Court, the accused sits in the dock at the back of the court - as per the below link.

Obviously, in Morwell this isn't a consideration - even though this is a Supreme Court trial - because Morwell courtroom is how it is. But it sounds as though the Supreme Court in the city has docks at the rear of their courtrooms.

7 - Accused​

In a criminal trial, the accused is seated in the dock at the back of the courtroom.

Explainer: Criminal courtroom

A criminal courtroom in the Supreme Court will have a judge, a judge's associate, tipstaff, a jury, and lawyers in attendance, each playing an essential role in Court proceedings.

www.supremecourt.vic.gov.au

I do find it interesting that whilst you have witnesses giving evidence you would not have the defendant directly in your line of sight …. It’s always very telling seeing their facial expressions / mannerisms whilst this is happening.

 

[mamamama9873]

I do agree, except for the fact I'm not certain her inheritances were the reason she didn't work. I don't think she worked once the first child came along, I think she was a SAHM from that point on. I'm not sure of the timeline of children's births and inheritances, so it's hard to say if the inherited money played a part in her staying home to raise the kids.

I think her kids were born in about 2009 and 2014, the first inheritance came in 2009 when her grandmother passed away I believe. So while she might have been a SAHM with the kids being little, most mums (especially single mums) do return to work once the children are in primary school. Her children were 9 and 14 in 2023 so would have likely had to return to work when they were younger if it hadn’t been for the inherited money (and especially seeing her and Simon separating in 2015, would be hard to support a family and pay for two households on an engineering wage). JMO

 

[mamamama9873]

I agree. I’m not saying that everyone has to work or they’ll end up (allegedly) murdering their in-laws, but work creates a rhythm and purpose to a day.

It doesn’t have to be paid work - painting or writing would fulfil the same purpose, as would an absorbing creative hobby or volunteering or sport but she doesn’t seem to have done very much. Except Lego - on the ABC podcast they mentioned that she had a lot of Lego on display and we know she was doing it in her room after the lunch.

Simon and Erin have been separated for a while. I wonder if he’s been dating again? It might be information deemed inadmissible to the court. Or would his faith make that less likely?

totally agree. Work isn’t needed to live a fulfilled life but it helps with structure and purpose. Outside of Lego, online sleuthing and editing a local community paper, we don’t know what Erin did with her time while the children were at school.

 

[JBowie]

I do find it interesting that whilst you have witnesses giving evidence you would not have the defendant directly in your line of sight …. It’s always very telling seeing their facial expressions / mannerisms whilst this is happening.

There have been reports of her reactions, such as this one from 24 May:

The jury has seen Ms Patterson react to various things in the courtroom. Tears flowed when she watched videos of her kids testifying. She directed intense focus towards the witness box as others, including Simon Patterson, gave evidence.

Most of the time, however, she has worn a calm, neutral expression that gives little away. Perhaps once a day, a lawyer or the judge cracks a joke to cut the tension in the courtroom. While others laugh loudly, Ms Patterson, at best, offers a wry smile.

Mother, cook, defendant: Trial of Erin Patterson turns to her personal life

A web of messages, search histories, and reset phones has emerged in the Erin Patterson trial. But can digital evidence explain what happened at her dinner table?

www.abc.net.au

 

[Detechtive]

Along the lines of Erin’s small circle, I have been contemplating whether the large inheritances actually ended up being curse in Erin’s life?

With the financial freedom they gave her, she didn’t have to work - which at first might seem like a dream.

But instead of using that time to build something meaningful, she seemed to spiral inward - researching medical conditions, death caps and venting online. No career, no colleagues, no workplace recognition or friendships beyond her tiny circle.

It feels like her extreme focus on the in-laws stemmed from that small world and a deep need for recognition and belonging. Once she felt shut out by the in-laws, it hit much harder than it might have otherwise or a person with a wider social circle.

In the end, I really think the lack of purpose and external validation played a big role in what happened. Her large inheritances gave her freedom - but were they ultimately a slow, isolating curse?

Curious to hear what others think.

I think this is extremely important.

I see Erin as someone who is in an echo chamber with sycophant friends who don’t challenge her. Her isolation from anyone else she can’t control and manipulate has made her a small time thinker, imo.

I think this is why she didn’t think of the health department and police and media spectacle post lunch, because she was isolated and thinking very small. And everyone she spoke to seems to have fuelled this thinking.

It’s as though she compartmentalised everything and everyone. She was telling her friends group what would become evidence but somehow didn’t think those things would come into the criminal matter?
Strange.

I would think that Covid isolation and anxiety probably also played a part in the lead up. She already seems like a hypochondriac so I’m sure the Covid stress only made her more small minded and mentally unwell for lack of a better term.

Then when Covid was over Simon said he was separated on the tax return. I have no doubt that the isolation from the church and his family during Covid probably made her more controlling and possessive.
Then when he pulled away (in her mind) in 2022 and his family wouldn’t get in line and take her side, it seems like this triggered her rage for the whole family imo

 

[ch_13]

There are various styles of court layout. Dock at the back is probably from the early British tradition.

I guess it also depends on the shape of the room to start with. This is quite a small courtroom; not built for a trial with an international following.

For what it's worth, here's an interesting article about the use of the dock and how it affects the presumption of innocence.

[In Russia, the accused is] held in a glass enclosure, or dock, nicknamed the aquarium...In Wellington Australia, a defendant charged with involvement in organized crime is held in an open dock, in London and Montréal a glass cage, and in Cairo a glass cage inside another metal cage. Conversely, in Chicago, that same person would sit at the bar next to their lawyer.

In the Dock: The Impact of Courtroom Architecture on Judicial Procedure and Perceptions • Law and the Senses

Suffragettes Christabel Pankhurst, Flora Drummond and Emmeline Pankhurst seated in the dock in a crowded courtroom. From the LSE Library through Wikipedia Commons. Shoshana Paget Social and Cultural Analysis Ph.D. program Department of Sociology & Anthropology, Concordia University 1 August 2021...

lawandthesenses.org

 

[MrJ]

In Wellington Australia,

I think that article meant NZ…..

 

[MsMarple]

Here’s what Erin told reporters in August 2023:

Several media outlets have been parked outside Patterson’s house since the deadly lunch gained international attention, and she said she has not been able to have friends over to support her because “nobody wants their face in the media”.

“I lost my parents-in-law, my children lost their grandparents,’’ Patterson told the Australian.

“And I’ve been painted as an evil witch. And the media is making it impossible for me to live in this town. I can’t have friends over. The media is at the house where my children are at. The media are at my sister’s house so I can’t go there. This is unfair.’’

Leongatha suspected mushroom poisoning: Erin Patterson says media has portrayed her as an ‘evil witch’

Woman at centre of Victoria mushroom lunch that left three dead says she feels trapped in her home because reporters are camped outside

www.theguardian.com

 

[MsMarple]

I wonder how things would have gone if the accused had been honest from the start. Maybe msm would’ve been easier on her but at the very least she wouldn’t have had to dump the dehydrator. The incident might have been considered a terrible mishap, by LE and by the community. Of course the visits to iNaturalist would still have been dicey to explain.

It seems like the accused has a history of denying personal responsibility, no matter the cost.

 

[Bats]

I wonder how things would have gone if the accused had been honest from the start. Maybe msm would’ve been easier on her but at the very least she wouldn’t have had to dump the dehydrator. The incident might have been considered a terrible mishap, by LE and by the community. Of course the visits to iNaturalist would still have been dicey to explain.

It seems like the accused has a history of denying personal responsibility, no matter the cost.

I've wondered that too.
It's why I think the jury won't be allowed to use things like the dumping of the dehydrator and other bits and pieces when they are considering factors that prove guilt.

JMO