Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #13 *Arrest*

[TootsieFootsie]

Police probe after wild mushroom deaths

A major police probe has been launched into the deaths of three elderly people who died after eating wild and poisonous mushrooms.

au.lifestyle.yahoo.com

One man still fighting for life.

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[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

IMPORTANT

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10. Sub judice contempt: restricting the publication of prejudicial information

 

[Knitty]

Please continue here.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

I've been thinking about how poor a decision it was for Erin to take the stand, and have decided to look at one area specifically, that of the death cap mushrooms. Before she took the stand, all we essentially knew was:

Death-cap mushrooms were in the mushroom paste
Erin had almost certainly foraged for mushrooms at some point

Defense wise, they had successfully managed to get an expert to say that it's very hard for a novice to identify mushroom types. The prosecution hadn't done a great job of proving that she had knowingly got them, or whether she even knew much about them. Some imprecise mobile tower pings, and random websites didn't make for much of a convincing argument. There was considerable doubt about whether she added them knowingly.

After being on trial, Erin has essentially given us a lot of extra information including:

Erin was quite an experienced forager
She regularly tested her foraged mushrooms
She had looked into the dangers of death-cap mushrooms
She placed them in a Tupperware box with other non-foraged mushrooms
She created a mushroom duxelle that she felt was bland after taste testing it
She added mushrooms from the Tupperware box but had forgotten they had foraged mushrooms in
After rinsing them, she chopped them and pushed them in the duxelle
It was only many days later that she suspected she might have put foraged mushrooms in

Now, if you're a juror you have to account for a much larger number of facts. Firstly, despite being an experienced forager who knew about DP, she wasn't concerned about these ones that she had picked. Also, she didn't taste these or use them at a different time. After creating the duxelle, she mustn't have retasted it to any great amount. The chopped mushrooms from the Tupperware box, didn't turn up in the examined leftovers for some reason. She must have had a poor memory to not consider afterwards that she had put foraged mushrooms in the box and subsequently the meal.

This is just one strand where she has made things much worse for herself by taking the stand. Now there are all sorts of things that seem odd that the jury have to account for when considering reasonable doubt. There are plenty of others where she has made things worse IMO: the reason for the meal invitation, why she didn't get sick/how sick she was, the lying about her illnesses etc

 

[LinasK]

I've been thinking about how poor a decision it was for Erin to take the stand, and have decided to look at one area specifically, that of the death cap mushrooms. Before she took the stand, all we essentially knew was:

Death-cap mushrooms were in the mushroom paste
Erin had almost certainly foraged for mushrooms at some point

Defense wise, they had successfully managed to get an expert to say that it's very hard for a novice to identify mushroom types. The prosecution hadn't done a great job of proving that she had knowingly got them, or whether she even knew much about them. Some imprecise mobile tower pings, and random websites didn't make for much of a convincing argument. There was considerable doubt about whether she added them knowingly.

After being on trial, Erin has essentially given us a lot of extra information including:

Erin was quite an experienced forager
She regularly tested her foraged mushrooms
She had looked into the dangers of death-cap mushrooms
She placed them in a Tupperware box with other non-foraged mushrooms
She created a mushroom duxelle that she felt was bland after taste testing it
She added mushrooms from the Tupperware box but had forgotten they had foraged mushrooms in
After rinsing them, she chopped them and pushed them in the duxelle
It was only many days later that she suspected she might have put foraged mushrooms in

Now, if you're a juror you have to account for a much larger number of facts. Firstly, despite being an experienced forager who knew about DP, she wasn't concerned about these ones that she had picked. Also, she didn't taste these or use them at a different time. After creating the duxelle, she mustn't have retasted it to any great amount. The chopped mushrooms from the Tupperware box, didn't turn up in the examined leftovers for some reason. She must have had a poor memory to not consider afterwards that she had put foraged mushrooms in the box and subsequently the meal.

This is just one strand where she has made things much worse for herself by taking the stand. Now there are all sorts of things that seem odd that the jury have to account for when considering reasonable doubt. There are plenty of others where she has made things worse IMO: the reason for the meal invitation, why she didn't get sick/how sick she was, the lying about her illnesses etc

Excellent summary!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

On the previous thread, I wondered if EP had accidentally caused far more harm and death than even she intended.

If she made the five BW's for Simon and his relatives at the same time, adding a fatal dose of DC mushroom powder to the one for SP, could it be possible that she cross-contaminated all the others?

She was grooming SP's family to be there for her emotionally and to stick around and continue their loving support of her. Grooming them with her phoney story of cancer. It sounds like it wasn't just a lure to get them to attend, it was also an appeal for them to stay in her life. Perhaps she made that batch all together, put a huge whack of powder in the one for SP and the rest of them by dint of shared baking tray or shared utensils or some kind of transfer also got a dose?

Then she made her own portion completely differently and separately?

Also at some point, she must have disposed of other items used in the prep ? How scared was she that even small trace amounts of DC on her kitchen equipment could kill her or her family members? Whole thing makes no sense even after all this time!

JMO MOO

 

[LinasK]

On the previous thread, I wondered if EP had accidentally caused far more harm and death than even she intended.

If she made the five BW's for Simon and his relatives at the same time, adding a fatal dose of DC mushroom powder to the one for SP, could it be possible that she cross-contaminated all the others?

She was grooming SP's family to be there for her emotionally and to stick around and continue their loving support of her. Grooming them with her phoney story of cancer. It sounds like it wasn't just a lure to get them to attend, it was also an appeal for them to stay in her life. Perhaps she made that batch all together, put a huge whack of powder in the one for SP and the rest of them by dint of shared baking tray or shared utensils or some kind of transfer also got a dose?

Then she made her own portion completely differently and separately?

Also at some point, she must have disposed of other items used in the prep ? How scared was she that even small trace amounts of DC on her kitchen equipment could kill her or her family members? Whole thing makes no sense even after all this time!

JMO MOO

No, most likely she cooked her portion first or separately without mushrooms. She made individual portions, so she had a poisoned one ready for Simon as well. I think it was intentional, since Beef Wellington is supposed to be one large piece of meat sliced up at the time of serving, not individual pastries. She color-coded the plates so that she knew which was the non-poisoned portion for her. Even IF you argue white/grey color on the plates- the important point was that her plate was significantly different in color that at least 2 of her guests- one living, one not noticed. If if were accidental, I'd be more inclined to believe it if 1) it was one large Beef Wellington that everyone was served from 2) all 5 plates were identical 3) Erin or her kids or dog were significantly ill. Erin's bouts of "vomiting/diarrhea" were cured by Imodium and Ginger Tea, so much that she went for a 3 hour drive in light colored pants and stopped for Coffee, a sandwich with Chili in it, and Hotdogs. And... Erin ate nearly as much of her portion as Gail. Explain that.

 

[MrJ]

I've been thinking about how poor a decision it was for Erin to take the stand, and have decided to look at one area specifically, that of the death cap mushrooms. Before she took the stand, all we essentially knew was:

Death-cap mushrooms were in the mushroom paste
Erin had almost certainly foraged for mushrooms at some point

Defense wise, they had successfully managed to get an expert to say that it's very hard for a novice to identify mushroom types. The prosecution hadn't done a great job of proving that she had knowingly got them, or whether she even knew much about them. Some imprecise mobile tower pings, and random websites didn't make for much of a convincing argument. There was considerable doubt about whether she added them knowingly.

After being on trial, Erin has essentially given us a lot of extra information including:

Erin was quite an experienced forager
She regularly tested her foraged mushrooms
She had looked into the dangers of death-cap mushrooms
She placed them in a Tupperware box with other non-foraged mushrooms
She created a mushroom duxelle that she felt was bland after taste testing it
She added mushrooms from the Tupperware box but had forgotten they had foraged mushrooms in
After rinsing them, she chopped them and pushed them in the duxelle
It was only many days later that she suspected she might have put foraged mushrooms in

Now, if you're a juror you have to account for a much larger number of facts. Firstly, despite being an experienced forager who knew about DP, she wasn't concerned about these ones that she had picked. Also, she didn't taste these or use them at a different time. After creating the duxelle, she mustn't have retasted it to any great amount. The chopped mushrooms from the Tupperware box, didn't turn up in the examined leftovers for some reason. She must have had a poor memory to not consider afterwards that she had put foraged mushrooms in the box and subsequently the meal.

This is just one strand where she has made things much worse for herself by taking the stand. Now there are all sorts of things that seem odd that the jury have to account for when considering reasonable doubt. There are plenty of others where she has made things worse IMO: the reason for the meal invitation, why she didn't get sick/how sick she was, the lying about her illnesses etc

I completely agree. I actually think the defence case got a lot more complicated with much more to work through than they realised at the start of the trial. But on the other hand it's been very entertaining hearing all the things Erin said and all the suggestions that Nanette Rogers made only for EP to engage what she thought was cleverly in semantics and answers devised to dodge than give an emphatic one either way. We are watching her unravel in real time. It's actually amazing and kind of funny if it weren't so serious. Imo

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

No, most likely she cooked her portion first or separately without mushrooms. She made individual portions, so she had a poisoned one ready for Simon as well. I think it was intentional, since Beef Wellington is supposed to be one large piece of meat sliced up at the time of serving, not individual pastries. She color-coded the plates so that she knew which was the non-poisoned portion for her. Even IF you argue white/grey color on the plates- the important point was that her plate was significantly different in color that at least 2 of her guests- one living, one not noticed. If if were accidental, I'd be more inclined to believe it if 1) it was one large Beef Wellington that everyone was served from 2) all 5 plates were identical 3) Erin or her kids or dog were significantly ill. Erin's bouts of "vomiting/diarrhea" were cured by Imodium and Ginger Tea, so much that she went for a 3 hour drive in light colored pants and stopped for Coffee, a sandwich with Chili in it, and Hotdogs.

I understand she made separate individual BWs for all and that she certainly protected *herself* and her children and dog from ingesting any DC powder.

Beyond that we can't really be sure if she intentionally truly intended to poison everyone or just one person. Was she maybe aiming to finish off SP once and for all then having his loving family dote on her whilst she went ahead with a gastric band?

When she ground up these deadly dried out mushrooms into powder, where did she put it? Did she use a mortar and pestle and put the powder in a little jar or ziploc bag? Did she powder them on the same day as she constructed the poisonous BWs and cross contaminate everything on the kitchen bench with little bits?

I think she's guilty but am wondering what her perfect plan was if it had gone the way she thought?

JMO MOO

 

[MaxDecimus13]

No, most likely she cooked her portion first or separately without mushrooms. She made individual portions, so she had a poisoned one ready for Simon as well. I think it was intentional, since Beef Wellington is supposed to be one large piece of meat sliced up at the time of serving, not individual pastries. She color-coded the plates so that she knew which was the non-poisoned portion for her. Even IF you argue white/grey color on the plates- the important point was that her plate was significantly different in color that at least 2 of her guests- one living, one not noticed. If if were accidental, I'd be more inclined to believe it if 1) it was one large Beef Wellington that everyone was served from 2) all 5 plates were identical 3) Erin or her kids or dog were significantly ill. Erin's bouts of "vomiting/diarrhea" were cured by Imodium and Ginger Tea, so much that she went for a 3 hour drive in light colored pants and stopped for Coffee, a sandwich with Chili in it, and Hotdogs.

Sometimes I think it's useful to zoom out and see the bigger picture when assessing the facts.

The reason this case blew up internationally was because of the bizarre fact that out of 5 people at a dinner, only 1 escaped unscathed and they'd made the meal. This fact alone, before we knew anything else, was enough to create considerable suspicion on EP.

All the other strange facts that we didn't know simply add onto this original peculiar situation, and there have been plenty:

Individually wrapped BW
A different coloured plate for EP
A husband in ICU with a mystery illness a year before
Children and dog not getting ill
Lying about cancer and appointments
A fake reason for the meal/rarely hosted event
Lying to people about foraging/disposing of evidence
Etc etc

The point I'm making, is that people were ready to presume guilt way before we knew any of the above. When you see it all lined up like that, you have to wonder about reasonable doubt.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

I understand she made separate individual BWs for all and that she certainly protected *herself* and her children and dog from ingesting any DC powder.

Beyond that we can't really be sure if she intentionally truly intended to poison everyone or just one person. Was she maybe aiming to finish off SP once and for all then having his loving family dote on her whilst she went ahead with a gastric band?

When she ground up these deadly dried out mushrooms into powder, where did she put it? Did she use a mortar and pestle and put the powder in a little jar or ziploc bag? Did she powder them on the same day as she constructed the poisonous BWs and cross contaminate everything on the kitchen bench with little bits?

I think she's guilty but am wondering what her perfect plan was if it had gone the way she thought?

JMO MOO

Surely cross-contamination would have affected her and the kids as well?

It's worth remembering that Erin would have had a significant amount of time to dispose of any evidence before people got sick and suspicion came upon her.

Regardless of guilt, I'm inclined to believe that the DC mushroom was in a powdered form somehow, although I'm not sure how dangerous that would have been to simply have around. The lack of other exotic mushrooms and any pieces of DC suggests that Erin's version is a fabrication. I think she knew full well she had foraged mushrooms that she was adding to the meal. The issue is whether she knew they were DCs.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Surely cross-contamination would have affected her and the kids as well?

It's worth remembering that Erin would have had a significant amount of time to dispose of any evidence before people got sick and suspicion came upon her.

Regardless of guilt, I'm inclined to believe that the DC mushroom was in a powdered form somehow, although I'm not sure how dangerous that would have been to simply have around. The lack of other exotic mushrooms and any pieces of DC suggests that Erin's version is a fabrication. I think she knew full well she had foraged mushrooms that she was adding to the meal. The issue is whether she knew they were DCs.

I reckon she made the poisonous ones completely separately from her own individual one.
I don't know enough about finely ground DC mushroom powder / dust to know what dangers it has but one would imagine that even breathing it in on the air or handling it near any utensils or having it on one's own skin could be lethally dangerous? Even a little breeze or fan of air could make some particles waft onto something nearby.

Also, afterwards, washing the knives & forks and plates... it would be terrifying wondering if there's any residue. Well, for a normal person it would but then a normal person wouldn't have that situation in the first place, so it's difficult to imagine!

JMO MOO

 

[Detechtive]

Amanita phalloides, commonly known as the death cap mushroom, contains potent toxins (mainly amatoxins) that are absorbed very rapidly after ingestion.

Key Timeline for Toxin Absorption:
Within minutes to 1 hour: Amatoxins are absorbed through the gastrointestinal tract into the bloodstream.

Peak plasma concentration is usually reached in 6–12 hours post-ingestion.

Despite this, symptoms are delayed, typically appearing 6 to 24 hours after ingestion — this latency period can be deceptive, making victims believe they’re safe.

https://medtigo.com/conditions/amatoxin-mushroom-toxicity

 

[Detechtive]

Surely cross-contamination would have affected her and the kids as well?

It's worth remembering that Erin would have had a significant amount of time to dispose of any evidence before people got sick and suspicion came upon her.

Regardless of guilt, I'm inclined to believe that the DC mushroom was in a powdered form somehow, although I'm not sure how dangerous that would have been to simply have around. The lack of other exotic mushrooms and any pieces of DC suggests that Erin's version is a fabrication. I think she knew full well she had foraged mushrooms that she was adding to the meal. The issue is whether she knew they were DCs.

If she didn't know she was adding them, why didn't DC's get added to her meal, and why did the talk of "Death cap poisoning" trigger her to throw out her dehydrator, etc.
It doesn't logically flow. IMO

 

[MrJ]

The issue is whether she knew they were DCs.

Why would she google death caps on inaturalist, supposedly be an experienced forager, even take photos of mushrooms as pertained to the dehydrator without knowing what sort they were? Plus that story she shared about picking a mushroom, cutting off a bit of it, frying it and putting butter on it just to see if it was OK to eat or not was ludicrous. She's not naive. What she was naive about though was thinking she would be able to get away with the alleged murders

 

[Detechtive]

Can someone please tell me how to quote from the previous locked thread?

 

[MrJ]

Good morning. I wonder what the trial will bring for us today.

You can click the three dots in the post field and click the two quotation marks. But it doesn't show the username of whoever said it. Just need to copy and paste the text you want to quote

 

[Detechtive]

Ok here's another wack theory.

What if Erin knew full well that those were Deathcaps she was showing her friends photos of sitting on her kitchen bench, and what if she knew full well that she wasn't putting any hidden mushrooms in her kids food, and what if she set up this narrative on purpose for plausible deniability should her plan be found out?

She purposely excluded that she had foraged for mushrooms to her friends. Was that just an oversight? I think not.

Hypothetically, what if Erin wiped her previous facebook profile before these discussions and she had gone awol for about a year prior in her chat group.
Then she shows back up in the group with a new profile with tales of innocently hiding mushrooms in her kids food after dehydrating them.

Hypothetically, what if Erin then starts a narrative about how awful Simon and her in-laws are, after previously pretending to the group that they were still together.

Maybe she isn't the bumbling fool she appears.

I realise this doesn't explain her post-lunch behaviours at all, but I digress.

I know it's a stretch, but it's an interesting thought experiment.

 

[LinasK]

I understand she made separate individual BWs for all and that she certainly protected *herself* and her children and dog from ingesting any DC powder.

Beyond that we can't really be sure if she intentionally truly intended to poison everyone or just one person. Was she maybe aiming to finish off SP once and for all then having his loving family dote on her whilst she went ahead with a gastric band?

When she ground up these deadly dried out mushrooms into powder, where did she put it? Did she use a mortar and pestle and put the powder in a little jar or ziploc bag? Did she powder them on the same day as she constructed the poisonous BWs and cross contaminate everything on the kitchen bench with little bits?

I think she's guilty but am wondering what her perfect plan was if it had gone the way she thought?

JMO MOO

Or... since he didn't attend, still hurts him by surviving his family and has all the grieving from their deaths. I think this was planned months in advance when she foraged the mushrooms. She knew what Death Caps were, so most likely she dehydrated and ground them up then. Have no idea what her pantry looks like or what measures she took to ensure no kids/dog got access.

 

[SouthAussie]

Can someone please tell me how to quote from the previous locked thread?

You can click on the post number in the previous thread (to pull that post to the top), then click on the link in the address bar at the top of the page, and copy that link to your new post. When you post your new post, it will show the preview of the post you want to quote.

(Hopefully that makes sense!)