Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #13 *Arrest*

[Deleted member 363451]

She must have been quite confident that they couldn’t detect the DC toxins (as they were powdered). Which by visual inspection they couldn’t. As someone posted earlier on, mushroom toxin detection in food is a very recent medical advancement so Erin likely didn’t count on this.

I just find this difficult to fathom as they had all eaten at her house for lunch before they got sick. What did she think that it would be put down to?

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Death cap mushrooms, foraging and a dehydrator: Erin Patterson takes the stand – Full Story podcast​

Justice and courts reporter Nino Bucci takes Reged Ahmad through some of the key moments of her evidence, as she tells her side of the story

 

[Scooby-Doo]

With her on individual beef wellingtons, I find it hard to believe she couldn't find a full eye fillet.

And then only to make packet gravy and packet mash?

( She wasn't interested in making a beautiful, delicious meal; it was done to be made quickly, so the Death cap mushrooms would do their job, as they were the star of this meal..!)


Most people in their household know what plates they have available in their cupboards.

I think the plates were bought especially for this meal and disposed of after, which is why the police did not recover the gray plates in question.

We know she went to the tip for the dehydrator. Would not be surprised if she got rid of the plates there for the same reason, too.

Ian Wilkinson, a pastor, would not take an oath and then decide to lie in the witness box


However, interesting that Erin, who claimed she is a Christian now, did not take an oath but an affirmation

“I was trying to convert Simon into being an atheist. But things happened in reverse; I became a Christian.
She said her conversation occurred while attending her first-ever church service: a service at Korumburra Baptist church, of which Ian Wilkinson was and remains the pastor.

If you are a Christian, you swear on the Bible. And you take that very seriously. She says she is a Christian now, but she did not swear on the Bible.

As for the lunch, Simon messaged the night before to say he wasn't coming to the lunch.

Erin was desperate for him to attend. He would have been another victim.


But why go through with the lunch when he pulls out?

She could have rescheduled for when they're all there, so you leave no witnesses?

Or was she pretty confident he would make an appearance? So she made another "Erin Special" extra beef wellington there, ready for Simon?

And when he didn't turn up, that was thrown out in the bin, and was part of the collection analysis by the police also contained death cap toxins

 

[mamamama9873]

I just find this difficult to fathom as they had all eaten at her house for lunch before they got sick. What did she think that it would be put down to?

I’m with you on this, I feel the same. It is mind boggling she thought the lunch at her house wouldn’t be flagged immediately!

But maybe her research had shown that death cap caused less severe symptoms and demise over time, not that quickly. But even with a slower onset of symptoms, the lunch would have still been suspicious, so I am really unsure as well.

Powdered toxin might be absorbed differently and quicker than eating the actual mushroom and the guests might have been the first people to ever ingest powdered toxin and suffered stronger symptoms a lot quicker.

 

[L_B]

With her on individual beef wellingtons, I find it hard to believe she couldn't find a full eye fillet.

Wasn't she asking her FB friends about the meat.. I am surprised no one suggested a butcher? (although we just may not be privy if it was discussed in the group chat). I agree, if you wanted to really make a special meal, you would try follow the recipe as close as possible - fair enough to omit something like bacon for dietary reasons, but as even Erin pointed out on the stand, she needed heaps more pastry etc to cover the steak, as opposed to it being rolled around a log of meat.

 

[JBowie]

Hmmm the Lindy Chamberlain case comes to my mind.

Lindy Chamberlain-Creighton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alice Lynne "Lindy" Chamberlain-Creighton (née Murchison, born 4 March 1948) is a New Zealand–born Australian woman who was falsely convicted in one of Australia's most publicised and notorious murder trials and miscarriages of justice. Accused of killing her nine-week-old daughter, Azaria, while camping at Uluru (known then as Ayers Rock) in 1980, she maintained that she saw a dingo leave the tent where Azaria was sleeping. The prosecution case was circumstantial and depended upon forensic evidence that was eventually found to be deeply flawed.

The Lindy Chamberlain case was indeed a travesty, however, in that case there were no Facebook messages, google searches, visits to death cap mushroom growing areas, hiding of computers, remote re-settings of phone while it was being held by police and admission in court of a litany of lies told to police by the accused.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Death cap mushrooms, foraging and a dehydrator: Erin Patterson takes the stand – Full Story podcast​

Justice and courts reporter Nino Bucci takes Reged Ahmad through some of the key moments of her evidence, as she tells her side of the story

Erin needs to be challenged on her statement about Death Caps not growing in Gippsland. A simple Google search will show that mushrooms do in fact grown in South Gippsland and Gippsland in general.

In regards to foraging for edible mushrooms, the best time to go is generally from April through to June. Remembering that her lunch was on the 29th July 2023. There are mushrooms growing much closer to where she lived. There was no need to travel to the locations that she went to, unless of course she was looking for Death Caps... (allegedly).

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Wasn't she asking her FB friends about the meat.. I am surprised no one suggested a butcher? (although we just may not be privy if it was discussed in the group chat). I agree, if you wanted to really make a special meal, you would try follow the recipe as close as possible - fair enough to omit something like bacon for dietary reasons, but as even Erin pointed out on the stand, she needed heaps more pastry etc to cover the steak, as opposed to it being rolled around a log of meat.

It would have been much easier to go to a butcher, or another supermarket to get the one piece of topside.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Hmmm the Lindy Chamberlain case comes to my mind.

Lindy Chamberlain-Creighton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alice Lynne "Lindy" Chamberlain-Creighton (née Murchison, born 4 March 1948) is a New Zealand–born Australian woman who was falsely convicted in one of Australia's most publicised and notorious murder trials and miscarriages of justice. Accused of killing her nine-week-old daughter, Azaria, while camping at Uluru (known then as Ayers Rock) in 1980, she maintained that she saw a dingo leave the tent where Azaria was sleeping. The prosecution case was circumstantial and depended upon forensic evidence that was eventually found to be deeply flawed.

There is absolutely no similarity between the Lindy Chamberlain case and the Erin Patterson case.

 

[L_B]

It would have been much easier to go to a butcher, or another supermarket to get the one piece of topside.

Yep, so how you have to wonder why choose individual portions, if not to ensure you were eating a differently prepared meal, as opposed to a slice of a shared one...

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Very good points.
Very lucky that it unfolded how it did and that the medical staff was quick thinking.

I agree if the lunch comprised of a different mushroom free meal (with sprinkled dc powder), the doctors might have not suspected mushroom poisoning as quickly. Her choice of meal lead them there quicker.

It’s still mind boggling to me that she thought 4 lunch guests (or even 5 if SP had attended) from 2 different households could attend and pass away mysteriously and she wouldn’t get suspected

Had it been placed into muffins or something like that, it might have actually looked more suspicious. The meal, including mushrooms from who knows where, at least allowed for some plausible deniability.

I just don't buy this idea that anybody would think that 4 or 5 closely linked people would suddenly die of a mystery illness and it wouldn't be investigated, regardless of age etc. Even if deathcaps had not been detected, it wouldn't have taken long to realise they were all at the same meal a couple of days prior.

We're essentially left with the possibilities that Erin was incredibly naive, didn't care, or it was more extreme than planned.

 

[Lisa4]

Do you know what date and time that was?

I am wondering if this is before or after the point in time Erin was referring to in her testimony where she stated:

"I had been told that ... people were getting treatment for possible death cap mushroom poisoning. So that was already happening."

After, I think.

From memory, the order was given to start that specific treatment approx 7am Monday, and then EP was at the hospital later that morning, where she was apparently told that people were being treated.

 

[Bats]

I just find this difficult to fathom as they had all eaten at her house for lunch before they got sick. What did she think that it would be put down to?

Something that happened at church they would all go to the next day....

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Wasn't she asking her FB friends about the meat.. I am surprised no one suggested a butcher? (although we just may not be privy if it was discussed in the group chat). I agree, if you wanted to really make a special meal, you would try follow the recipe as close as possible - fair enough to omit something like bacon for dietary reasons, but as even Erin pointed out on the stand, she needed heaps more pastry etc to cover the steak, as opposed to it being rolled around a log of meat.

Asian grocers are so ten a penny that she can't remember the one she went to, but butchers must be hard to find!

This is another aspect I've had time to reflect on. I just don't think it's reasonable to say she can't remember which one. I was trying to think of a similar example, and I thought of petrol/gas stations.

They are something that you use a lot of, and if you're in an unfamiliar area you might go to one that you've never been to before. However, I think I'd be able to basically say any that I've been to within the last year at least, especially those in the relatively local area.

 

[katydid23]

Do you know what date and time that was?

I am wondering if this is before or after the point in time Erin was referring to in her testimony where she stated:

"I had been told that ... people were getting treatment for possible death cap mushroom poisoning. So that was already happening."

I finally found an article with very detailed times and dates:

Mushroom trial: If she loved them, why didn’t she help them? - South Gippsland Sentinel Times

“SURELY, if you loved them, you would have immediately notified the medical authorities about there being a possibility that the foraged mushrooms had gone into the container with the Chinese mushrooms?” said Dr Rogers. “Well, I didn't,”...

www.sgst.com.au

But, on her own evidence, Erin Patterson knew she had been foraging for wild mushrooms prior to the lunch when Simon phoned her at 11.18am and 2.30pm on Sunday, July 30, telling her that his parents, Don and Gail Patterson, were sick in hospital.

On the evidence of Lisa Shannon, the after-hours coordinator at Korumburra hospital, Don and Gail Patterson presented at the hospitals’ urgent care department at 10.10am on Sunday, July 30, 2023.

The clock was already ticking on their exposure to the deadly amatoxins in amanita phalloides mushrooms, but it wasn’t until sometime after 6.50am on Monday, July 31 that they were finally administered the potentially life-saving amanitin antidote, Silibinin, the most widely used inhibitor of the effects of death cap mushrooms.

Even then, doctors were still unsure of the source of the poisoning.



ALSO, There is this:

Dr Morgan called Dr Douglas again at 11.30pm Sunday, and he undertook to contact the senior toxicologist, Dr Yit Leang, she said the specific antidote for amanita phalloides toxicity Silibinin wasn’t indicated at that time.

“Based on the story that we knew so far, Dr Leang's advice was that at the moment there wasn't enough evidence, it wasn't clearly cause and effect of having had a specific mushroom called amanita phalloides, the death cap, so at that point the specific antidote to that wasn't indicated at that stage,” Dr Douglas told the court, during his evidence on Day Seven of the trial.

....snip....
At 6.30 am, Dr Douglas received a further phone call from Dr Morgan, advising that Don’s clinical state had worsened even further and now Gail was showing similar signs.

Dr Douglas advised her that she should start getting the process running to start some Silibinin, as per the Austin clinical guidelines.




THE NEXT MORNING THEY ASKED EP ABOUT THE MUSHROOMS AND SHE LIED


Just after 8am on Monday morning, July 31, 2023, on her initial presentation at Leongatha Hospital, Dr Chris Webster asked her as much.

“There's a concern of death cap mushroom poisoning,” Dr Webster told the court he had said to Erin in the Urgent Care Centre that morning.

“Where did you get the mushrooms?”

“Woolworths,” was allegedly Erin Patterson’s one word reply.

....snip....

SO AT AROUND THE EXACT SAME TIME THAT THE FIRST 2 GUESTS WERE RECEIVING THE ANTIDOTE, EP ARRIVED AT THE HOSPITAL AND LIED ABOUT THE MUSHROOM SOURCE.

 

[katydid23]

How would she be forced to though? Would't it be better for her self preservation if she continued with the deceit for longer?

She couldn't because the leftovers are still on her property.

No one would have known there were leftovers still in the house except for her.

The police were already on the way to her house. It wouldn't have been hard for them to think to look in the outside bins for food scraps.

How would the prosecution explain this so as to not create some doubt in the jury's mind of her guilt?

The police were going to find the leftovers, whether she spoke up honestly or not, so the prosecution was lucky about that.

 

[mamamama9873]

Asian grocers are so ten a penny that she can't remember the one she went to, but butchers must be hard to find!

This is another aspect I've had time to reflect on. I just don't think it's reasonable to say she can't remember which one. I was trying to think of a similar example, and I thought of petrol/gas stations.

They are something that you use a lot of, and if you're in an unfamiliar area you might go to one that you've never been to before. However, I think I'd be able to basically say any that I've been to within the last year at least, especially those in the relatively local area.

100% agree. I have also thought about this - I could always narrow it down to one or in worst case 2 different shops at least. We have to consider that Erin was very capable of dealing with her everyday life - things like cooking an elaborate meal and getting children to activities on time was not a problem to her.
Yet she supposedly couldn’t remember which shop she bought the mushrooms from only a few months ago? We also have to keep in mind that she grew up in the area of Melbourne (Glen Waverley) she bought the mushrooms from. She had an investment property there and I think it had been mentioned that she went there every couple of months. So it’s certainly not a new and unfamiliar area to her which makes it even more unlikely that she couldn’t remember.

IMO Erin saying she can’t remember is a very obvious lie based on my thoughts above.

 

[Lisa4]

I just don't buy this idea that anybody would think that 4 or 5 closely linked people would suddenly die of a mystery illness and it wouldn't be investigated, regardless of age etc. Even if deathcaps had not been detected, it wouldn't have taken long to realise they were all at the same meal a couple of days prior.

As someone else said, she did sadly seem to live in a bubble. Ie out of touch with real friends and people.

So I do think there's every possibility that she really thought it was a watertight and plausible scenario in their circles for all 4-5 people to go down (in varying stages and severity) with gastro and later die, due to their age and poor health.

They live in different towns. She may have also thought no professionals would ever connect the dots (in time)?

AMOO

 

[katydid23]

I finally found an article with very detailed times and dates:

Mushroom trial: If she loved them, why didn’t she help them? - South Gippsland Sentinel Times

“SURELY, if you loved them, you would have immediately notified the medical authorities about there being a possibility that the foraged mushrooms had gone into the container with the Chinese mushrooms?” said Dr Rogers. “Well, I didn't,”...

www.sgst.com.au

But, on her own evidence, Erin Patterson knew she had been foraging for wild mushrooms prior to the lunch when Simon phoned her at 11.18am and 2.30pm on Sunday, July 30, telling her that his parents, Don and Gail Patterson, were sick in hospital.

On the evidence of Lisa Shannon, the after-hours coordinator at Korumburra hospital, Don and Gail Patterson presented at the hospitals’ urgent care department at 10.10am on Sunday, July 30, 2023.

The clock was already ticking on their exposure to the deadly amatoxins in amanita phalloides mushrooms, but it wasn’t until sometime after 6.50am on Monday, July 31 that they were finally administered the potentially life-saving amanitin antidote, Silibinin, the most widely used inhibitor of the effects of death cap mushrooms.

Even then, doctors were still unsure of the source of the poisoning.



ALSO, There is this:

Dr Morgan called Dr Douglas again at 11.30pm Sunday, and he undertook to contact the senior toxicologist, Dr Yit Leang, she said the specific antidote for amanita phalloides toxicity Silibinin wasn’t indicated at that time.

“Based on the story that we knew so far, Dr Leang's advice was that at the moment there wasn't enough evidence, it wasn't clearly cause and effect of having had a specific mushroom called amanita phalloides, the death cap, so at that point the specific antidote to that wasn't indicated at that stage,” Dr Douglas told the court, during his evidence on Day Seven of the trial.

....snip....
At 6.30 am, Dr Douglas received a further phone call from Dr Morgan, advising that Don’s clinical state had worsened even further and now Gail was showing similar signs.

Dr Douglas advised her that she should start getting the process running to start some Silibinin, as per the Austin clinical guidelines.




THE NEXT MORNING THEY ASKED EP ABOUT THE MUSHROOMS AND SHE LIED


Just after 8am on Monday morning, July 31, 2023, on her initial presentation at Leongatha Hospital, Dr Chris Webster asked her as much.

“There's a concern of death cap mushroom poisoning,” Dr Webster told the court he had said to Erin in the Urgent Care Centre that morning.

“Where did you get the mushrooms?”

“Woolworths,” was allegedly Erin Patterson’s one word reply.

....snip....

SO AT AROUND THE EXACT SAME TIME THAT THE FIRST 2 GUESTS WERE RECEIVING THE ANTIDOTE, EP ARRIVED AT THE HOSPITAL AND LIED ABOUT THE MUSHROOM SOURCE.

Also:

It is not known exactly what time the patients started receiving Silibinin, but sometime between 10am and 10.45am on Monday, July 31, Don was sedated and intubated and prepared for transfer to the Austin hospital, which houses the Victorian Liver Transplant Unit.

It was around this time that Erin Patterson had returned to the Leongatha Hospital, after a Triple Zero call had been put out for her, and in a conversation with Dr Webster, was warned that she and her children could be at risk of being poisoned.

He said Erin was reluctant to tell the children, that they might get scared.

“I said they can be scared and alive or dead,” said Dr Webster in his evidence on Day Seven of the trial.

At that stage, according to Dr Douglas, they were “still unsure about the exact mechanism” of the patients’ illness and that there were several other kinds of poisons that could have caused such an effect beyond just the mushrooms.

But while they were waiting to find the exact cause they should start the patients on Silibinin anyway.

Mushroom trial: If she loved them, why didn’t she help them? - South Gippsland Sentinel Times

“SURELY, if you loved them, you would have immediately notified the medical authorities about there being a possibility that the foraged mushrooms had gone into the container with the Chinese mushrooms?” said Dr Rogers. “Well, I didn't,”...

www.sgst.com.au

AND THIS:
During her evidence in chief, last Wednesday, June 4, Erin Patterson was asked about the conversation with her husband Simon, at the Monash hospital on August 1, when Simon allegedly accused her of poisoning his parents with dried mushrooms from the food dehydrator.

As well as saying “of course not” Mrs Patterson acknowledged it gave her cause to reflect on her use of the dehydrator and on what might have been in the meal.

“…and how I had dried foraged mushrooms in it weeks earlier,” said Erin.

“How did that make you feel?” asked Mr Mandy.

“Scared. Responsible. Really worried because Child Protection were involved and Simon seemed to be of the mind that maybe this was intentional, and I just got really scared. Yeah.”

However, after Child Protection finished their interviews with Simon and Erin, and she left the hospital with the children, the first thing she did the next day, feeling frantic, after driving the kids to school, was not to tell medical authorities about her fears that poisonous mushrooms might have found their way into the meal… she took the dehydrator to the Koonwarra tip.

 

[Scuffy35]

The police were already on the way to her house. It wouldn't have been hard for them to think to look in the outside bins for food scraps.

This, if true, satisfies my question.

I was also thinking she had an option to not allow police to search her home without a search warrant, but this would automatically make her look guilty, and secondly, would police need a search warrant for her outside bin (which is still within the boundary of her property though)?