Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*

[Detechtive]

I don't think they lockup the jury any more, especially for weekends. Used to. Now they would rather close early on Friday and the jury start deliberating on the Monday. Being on a jury takes over your life enough. For them, it would be like their entire world has ceased to exist for the past 8 weeks.

They are in this case. The jury is being sequestered at an unknown location with no communication with the outside world.

Justice Beale said the 12 jurors would be sequestered when they retire for deliberations.​

And as far as I am aware, they are not allowed to have a break between the end of the Judges instructions and deliberation.

Twist in mushroom murder trial as some charges dropped

www.9news.com.au

 

[MrJ]

1m ago
Defence warns jury against 'instinctive' desire for punishment

By Joseph Dunstan

Ms Patterson's lawyer tells the jury they need to "fiercely guard" against an instinct towards retribution and punishment in the face of a "desperately sad" situation for which they likely felt "deep empathy".

He tells them that his client's actions caused the deaths of her three guests and the serious illness of another.

"As human beings, we might have an instinctive reaction when confronted with that kind of loss to say to ourselves 'these were good, innocent people and whoever caused their deaths must be held to account'," he says.

"This case isn't about who's responsible in some general way … this case is about a criminal offence with elements that the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt."

 

[drsleuth]

1m ago00.29 EDT
Mandy says an important issue in this case is whether it is possible for people to share the same meal, containing death cap mushrooms, and have “very different health outcomes”.

“The answer to that question is a fundamental part of the case,” he says.

Mandy says the prosecution “seems to say “not possible””.

Mandy says the prosecution should have called evidence about if there was a medical reason Patterson did not become as unwell as her lunch guests.

Erin Patterson mushroom trial day 33 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[LinasK]

WTF

Key Event
1m ago
Defence says 'fundamental' issue of different health outcomes must be considered by jury

By Joseph Dunstan

The hearing's back and defence barrister Colin Mandy SC continues delivering his closing address to the jury.

He tells the jury it's "fundamental" that it considers if it's possible for people to share the same meal containing death cap mushroom toxins and have different medical outcomes.

He asks the jury what "scientific" reasons there might be for why Ms Patterson was less sick than her other lunch guests and criticises the prosecution for not leading more evidence on this matter.

Except that she wasn't "sick" at all! She tried to make herself vomit and have diarhhea by pigging out on cake, coffee, chili, and hotdogs. Her lab levels were all within normal limits, no evidence of diarrhea in her urine, and high BP is to be expected- she was stressed that they caught onto her so quickly!

 

[drsleuth]

14:29

Defence tables key question it says has been left unanswered​

Mr Mandy (left) is continuing his closing address to the jury.
Mr Mandy said the Crown has access to experts, doctors and other witnesses 'to answer their questions'.
The barrister said a question that needs to be answered is if death cap mushroom poisoning can affect people differently.
'Can people share the same meal containing toxins and have different outcomes?' Mr Mandy said.
'[The] prosecution says it's not possible.'
The jury heard the question has been looked at by experts across the globe but the Crown didn't ask for an opinion themselves until after Mr Mandy asked someone himself.Mr Mandy asked where was the expert who said Patterson should have been as sick as her guests.
'Where is the expert who provides you with the answer to that question?' Mr Mandy said.
'Put all of the evidence to the accused, not just a piece of it,' he said.
'They should've called that evidence and they didn't.'
LISTEN: The Trial of Erin Patterson podcast available now


14:29

Defence: 'This is our last chance'​

Mr Mandy accused the Crown again of presenting a 'flawed case' and said some of his own arguments might be 'simple and obvious'.
'But this is our last chance to speak to you on Erin Patterson's behalf,' he said.
Mr Mandy said he wouldn't apologise for going through the case in detail.
‘We can't chat to you about this,' he said.

Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates

Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[lazymaiden07]

DBM

 

[Detechtive]

Prosecution took 'flawed approach' to this case: Defence​

Mr Mandy continued his address to the jury by addressing one of the “important questions” in the case.
“Is it possible for people … to share the same meal containing amatoxins, but have very different health outcomes?” he asked.
Mr Mandy said the prosecution suggested it was “not possible”.
He told the jury a journal article produced during evidence by a forensic toxicologist was written by two amatoxin experts from Germany.
But he said despite the prosecution being able to call international witnesses, no experts were called to be asked about the “possible reasons“ why his client was not as sick as the others.
Mr Mandy declared that the prosecution took a “flawed approach” to the case, adding that witnesses can be “honestly mistaken” in their memories.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/the-mushroom-cook/erin-patterson-trial-live-closing-addresses-continue-in-mushroom-cook-case/live-coverage/2d6e483591ad308c611f94b4f9620a47#/entry/32264964

 

[katydid23]

1h ago04.07 BST
Mandy tells the jury that people have “imperfect and honestly mistaken memories”.

He says the jurors will have experienced telling a story to a group of people and having it recounted differently.

“Details get emphasised, details get minimised,” he says.

50m ago13.25 AEST
Mandy points to the “imperfect” evidence of nurse Kylie Ashton who told the trial the Patterson’s children eating the beef wellington leftovers was first discussed at her initial presentation at Leongatha hospital.

Mandy says this evidence was not supported by other medical witnesses and it was inconceivable doctors knew about the children at the initial presentation as they would have taken urgent action.

Wait a minute---so at the first interview, Mandy is saying that his client never mentioned she had children who were there at the end of the luncheon?

Is this helpful to the defense to claim that this loving and caring mum never mentioned her children at her first discussion about the potential poisonings?

 

[Detechtive]

Prosecution took 'flawed approach' to this case: Defence​

Mr Mandy continued his address to the jury by addressing one of the “important questions” in the case.
“Is it possible for people … to share the same meal containing amatoxins, but have very different health outcomes?” he asked.
Mr Mandy said the prosecution suggested it was “not possible”.
He told the jury a journal article produced during evidence by a forensic toxicologist was written by two amatoxin experts from Germany.
But he said despite the prosecution being able to call international witnesses, no experts were called to be asked about the “possible reasons“ why his client was not as sick as the others.
Mr Mandy declared that the prosecution took a “flawed approach” to the case, adding that witnesses can be “honestly mistaken” in their memories.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/the-mushroom-cook/erin-patterson-trial-live-closing-addresses-continue-in-mushroom-cook-case/live-coverage/2d6e483591ad308c611f94b4f9620a47#/entry/32264964

So why didn't the defence obtain rebuttal expert witnesses from Germany? IMO

 

[LinasK]

1m ago00.29 EDT
Mandy says an important issue in this case is whether it is possible for people to share the same meal, containing death cap mushrooms, and have “very different health outcomes”.

“The answer to that question is a fundamental part of the case,” he says.

Mandy says the prosecution “seems to say “not possible””.

Mandy says the prosecution should have called evidence about if there was a medical reason Patterson did not become as unwell as her lunch guests.

Erin Patterson mushroom trial day 33 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

The "medical" reason is simple- she did not consume a poisoned portion, and that's why she color-coded the plates, to ensure that she didn't accidentally poison herself. You can't prove a negative.

 

[drsleuth]

14:34

Defence tells jury to put sympathy aside​

Mr Mandy then moved the topic to 'empathy and emotion'.
Mr Mandy told the jury to put aside any sympathy and approach the job rationally like 'judges'.
He described the outcome of the lunch as a 'terrible tragedy'.
Mr Mandy also described Mr Wilkinson (pictured) as a 'kind and good person.'
'And Don and Gail were kind to Patterson,' Mr Mandy said.
Mr Mandy said he had 'two reasons for mentioning that'.
'As humans you'd feel empathy for them,' He said.
'As humans you might think whoever caused their deaths must be held to account.'
'Any desire for retribution must be put aside.
'You're judges… it would be quite wrong to think in that way.'

Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates

Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[drsleuth]

1m ago14.37 AEST
Jurors must put ‘natural human emotions’ aside and judge case on facts alone, Mandy says

Mandy says it is clear to everyone in the court room that Ian WIlkinson is a “kind and good person”. He says this also applies to the three lunch guests who died.

Human beings naturally feel deep empathy when confronted with events of loss, Mandy says.

He says humans may have an instinctive reaction to seek retribution for someone whose actions have caused the death of others.

“We know these actions of Erin Patterson caused the deaths of these three people and the serious illness of another” he says.

Mandy says jurors are judges and must guard against this type of thinking.

“You have to put your natural human emotions … to one side.”

He says the case is about a criminal offence with elements that the prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt.

“As a judge, what’s in your hearts, has no relevance at all,” he says.

Mandy says jurors must make a judgment on the facts alone.

Erin Patterson mushroom trial day 33 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[Lisa4]

So why didn't the defence obtain rebuttal expert witnesses from Germany? IMO

I would like to know this too?

 

[MrJ]

I'm confused, didn't the judge say to the jury this wouldn't be decided on a motive?

2m ago
Defence says without motive, proving intention is difficult

By Joseph Dunstan

Dr Mandy poses a question to the jury:

"Why on earth would anyone want to kill these people or cause them really serious injury or cause them any harm at all?"

He says Don and Gail had never been "anything but kind" to Erin Patterson and there was no reason to think she would harm them over a "brief period of tension" in December 2022.

He tells the jury there is an absence of motive in this case and that this weakens the prosecution's ability to demonstrate an intention to seriously harm or kill existed.

"Our argument to you is that motive is very important to the proof of intention and usually fundamental to it," he says.

He describes the example of someone waving a gun around which "goes off and kills someone", saying "without any more" evidence you cannot be satisfied of intention.

Mr Mandy says without a motive proven by the prosecution, the jury may conclude the case falls short of proving intention.

 

[Kemug]

Patterson said Simon had become 'nasty to her'

What?! Oh no! What awful behaviour towards such a lovely woman!

 

[Detechtive]

Why didnt defence call these witnesses to say

Yes I would like to know this too?

IMO because any expert obtained by either side must share their findings with the other side. And they couldn't guarantee it would be advantageous for Erin's case, IMO.
I highly doubt any expert would say that Erin wouldn't have been seriously ill if she did consume the same lunch. IMO

 

[Detechtive]

What?! Oh no! What awful behaviour towards such a lovely woman!

And definitely a reason to take out his family, not! IMO

 

[MrJ]

what about the Facebook messages?

Key Event
1m ago
Defence warns jury about 'unsatisfactory' evidence over child support tensions

By Joseph Dunstan

Mr Mandy outlines to the jury the period of tension that arose between Erin Patterson and her estranged husband Simon Patterson in December 2022.

He says the evidence shows it was a "brief spat" about child support which was "resolved amicably" before too long.

Mr Mandy tells the jury that it should disregard any idea that this tension could have formed a reason for Ms Patterson murdering her husband's parents and aunt and uncle.

"It's an unsatisfactory piece of evidence," he says.

 

[katydid23]

Wait a minute---so at the first interview, Mandy is saying that his client never mentioned she had children who were there at the end of the luncheon?

Is this helpful to the defense to claim that this loving and caring mum never mentioned her children at her first discussion about the potential poisonings?

Ha, look at Mandy's argument:

"...and it was inconceivable doctors knew about the children at the initial presentation as they would have taken urgent action."

LMAO---is this a defense argument? Doesn't it highlight how inconceivable it was that EP never brought up her children herself?

 

[drsleuth]

14:39

Jury urged to consider 'absence of motive'​

Mr Mandy has asked the jury to consider why Patterson would want to kill her lunch guests.
He said 'any thoughts of rights or wrongs' wasn't evidence and to 'put all that aside'.
'As a judge what's in your heart has no relevance at all in considering the facts,' Mr Mandy said.
Mr Mandy urged the jury to rely on the evidence.
'Why on earth would anyone want to kill these people?' he asked.
'Why would Erin Patterson want to kill them? Because of a brief period of tension in December of 2022?
'Which had absolutely nothing to do with Ian and Heather (pictured).'
Mr Mandy said Patterson had 'absolutely no reason at all' to hurt Don and Gail either and there was 'an absence of a motive'.
He suggested the Crown had tried to flesh out 'some kind of reason' for the crime.
Mr Mandy said an element of the crime was 'intention'.
'And they have to prove that's what Erin Patterson meant to do,' he said.

Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates

Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.

www.dailymail.co.uk