Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[BreakingNews]

good point - I was forgetting this too. The judge might then go to majority verdict, if there’s just one NG juror.

But I do agree with MaxDecimus13 - he’s done a good job highlighting the gaps in the prosecution case and a couple of NG doesn’t seem beyond the realm of possibility either.

I don't think the judge can accept a majority vote in a murder trial. It has to be unanimous or a hung jury. Will be very interested to hear how the judge directs the jury. Bring on Tuesday!

 

[Monstradamus]

If I had items related to a bush poo in a dog excrement bag in my handbag, it would be into the refuse bin adjacent to the petrol bawser ASAP. Or, into the refuse bin that’s always outside the front door at petrol stations. But that’s just me - not necessarily how everyone would act.

And possibly take more than 9 seconds to wash your hands

 

[Susjay]

Key Event
3m ago
Defence takes aim at 'absurd' arguments in crown case
Judd Boaz profile image
By Judd Boaz

Mr Mandy then turns his attention to propositions from the prosecution, which he dubs "convoluted" and "absurd":

That Erin Patterson would commit murder without any motive
That Ms Patterson used the cancer lie to get her lunch guests to attend
That Ms Patterson expected her guests to take her claims about having medical issues to the grave
That Ms Patterson would have committed the crime knowing an investigation would fall directly on her
He says that the defence has clearly refuted each of these points in its closing.

The Defence continues to say the accused loved the victims and that’s why there was no motive or an anti-motive for the crime. But from what we’ve heard in the trial, the family isn’t particularly close. It’s not clear just how close knit this family was or wasn't. We’ve heard the accused say the family bond was of great value to her and her children. But we’ve seen some conflicting evidence. For example the “lost cause…” comment. The accused and her children don’t seem to have come together with extended family members on a regular basis. It was unusual for the grandparents to come for lunch. I recall the accused attended church with the children only every other Sunday. We are led to believe most of the communication occurred over text or Signal and not in person on a regular basis. The family didn’t want Gail to be exposed to “upsetting messages” from the accused. And Don and Gail were uncomfortable about getting involved in disagreements between the estranged couple. It feels like the Pattersons were willing to support Erin and maintain contact but maybe at a distance. And Simon “wasn’t comfortable”… attending the lunch with his parents and aunt and uncle. It did seem like church was the glue that kept the family bonded to some degree.

We know a motive or anti-motive is not required. It can be established that an individual deliberately took actions which led to a particular outcome, and that individual was cognisant of what that outcome was likely to be in that situation. But we don’t need a reason behind that intention.

I may deliberately let down the tyres of my friend’s bike so it isn’t usable. But the motive or reason I did so could be a mystery to everyone else but me. There might be speculation about motive, but it doesn’t change the fact that I sabotaged the bike. Just sort of wanted to think this out loud and to separate motive, from deliberate action or intent.

 

[BreakingNews]

It’s all Simon’s fault!

I think she’s is lying about this, and seems a likely strategy to put blame on Simon.

He was so far removed from EP’s life and daily food prep … he did not know about the dehydrator or mushroom hobby. No one did.

Then “so far gone” so don’t bother helping …. Isn’t that a crime? Don’t bother calling 999 … better yet, smother them with a pillow, because they’ll die any way?

I agree that there is no point calling 999. In Australia emergency number is 000.

 

[Monstradamus]

It’s all Simon’s fault!

I think she’s is lying about this, and seems a likely strategy to put blame on Simon.

He was so far removed from EP’s life and daily food prep … he did not know about the dehydrator or mushroom hobby. No one did.

Then “so far gone” so don’t bother helping …. Isn’t that a crime? Don’t bother calling 999 … better yet, smother them with a pillow, because they’ll die any way?

She knew Sunday morning her guests were already in hospital. She had more than 24 hours to tell authorities it was possible mushroom poisoning. Instead, she went about life as normal. IMO
Crickets

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Key Event
1m ago
Defence on alleged removal of SIM card
Judd Boaz profile image
By Judd Boaz

Mr Mandy disputes that Erin Patterson removed the SIM card from Phone A while police were searching her home.

"She could not have somehow concealed and covertly removed a SIM card from her phone while under the constant observation of experienced homicide squad detectives," he says.

The prosecution alleges Ms Patterson removed the card while allegedly speaking to a lawyer in a separate room.

Mr Mandy says this means Phone A must have been in the same room that police allowed her to make her phone call in.

"That's quite a feat," he says.

He tells the jury that only his client's explanation holds up to scrutiny.

"Erin's account … is the one that fits the evidence the best. If she had successfully hidden Phone A from investigators why did she wait until [the next day] to put that SIM card into a different phone," Mr Mandy says.

"The stupid thing she did was factory reset Phone B a couple of times, entirely consistent with someone who panicked for no good reason at all, because there was nothing to be achieved by factory resetting Phone B."

bbm. oh well if you wanted to hide evidence that is

But as we all know rightly or wrongly she was NOT under constant observation when she took the phone into another room to apparently phone her lawyer. Was that even checked?

How can Mandy at this stage make things up like that?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

and I thought she LOVED mushrooms. Why would she only eat 1/4 of her delicious expensive gourmet meal?

Because some of the mushrooms tasted a bit off!

 

[MrJ]

I think Mandy is relying on fallible juror memory

 

[Kemug]

He says if Patterson wanted to mislead her guests she would have mentioned the medical issue before the lunch.

RSBM
What on earth are you talking about sir?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Thinking about during the course of the fatal dinner and the plates.

I believe it was said that EP had refused / declined her guests to see her butler's pantry?

I don't know what a butler's pantry is for sure but assume it's an area adjacent the dining room or kitchen maybe where things are stored and maybe where dirty plates go after one course has been finished and the next is going to be served? Or where the next course of food is prepped and ready to be brought to the table, in the way it would need to be if one had a wait staff or butler?

Regardless, it occurs to me that EP would be rightly terrified of the residue of the BWs, the leftover scraps on used plates, the uneaten scraps, the cutlery used by the guests for eating BWs and all associated things they'd touched and used including drinking glasses and napkins etc.

It strikes me that if she cleared the table after the hot meal course, she probably treated everything she touched very carefully, she probably dashed all those things into bin liners and double bagged them so as to isolate and contain the toxic remnants. To make sure the dog wouldn't sniff at them, that she wouldn't be contaminated herself, to ensure the kids wouldn't use anything that had DC residue on it. She'd be terrified of poison everywhere. I'll bet she threw the whole lot away inside the pantry.

Perhaps she did this whilst distracting guests with her story about cancer? Also she'd have had to fend off offers of help from everyone? The women especially being older women would have thought it only right and fair to help the host clear down the table.

JMO I think all those plates went into an isolation zone, maybe even a plastic box with lid. The next course would have been fruit and cake with the small white plates and a fresh table. When the children saw the things from the table, it would have been the second course which bore no relation to the first IMO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Re her 'medical issues'. She used that story as a lure to get them there in the first place, we know that. IMO she also used that story to keep her guests at the table eating and to prevent them leaving until all was done. She's so manipulative.

I'll bet she said let's eat this lovely meal before I explain the medical issues, it's not for discussing over dinner, I'll tell you when we've eaten. Narcs take hostages with their manipulation schemes.

JMO MOO

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Key Event
3m ago

Defence attacks memory of surviving lunch guest​

​

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy revisits his examination of Ian Wilkinson and his account of the July 29 lunch.

In her own testimony, Erin Patterson conceded she had misled Ian Wilkinson and the other guests about a cancer diagnosis.

Mr Mandy suggests to the jury there are differences between Ian Wilkinson's testimony during the trial and the police interview he gave after the lunch.

He emphasises terms such as "I think", "I believe" and "suspected" in Ian Wilkinson's police interview, and asks the jury to take into account the "frailty" of memory.

Mr Mandy states however that Ian Wilkinson's account is "not that much different" to his client's account of the lunch.

He says Ms Patterson merely lied to hide her embarrassing habits of binge-eating.

A reminder you can access the Butterfly Foundation if this raises any issues for you.

Key Event
1m ago

Cancer lie was told after lunch eaten, defence says​

Surviving lunch guest 'honestly mistaken', defence tells Erin Patterson jury — as it happened

Erin Patterson's defence lawyer is continuing his closing address to the jury after eight weeks of evidence in the triple-murder trial.

www.abc.net.au

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy contests the prosecution's argument that the cancer story was a "ruse" to get guests to attend the lunch.

He says the timing of the conversation, after the beef Wellington was eaten, made no sense.


Mr Mandy tells the jury the only "logical" conclusion to be drawn was that the cancer lie had nothing to do with the lunch.

"'She thought that she would take it to their graves' is such an illogical and irrational theory," he says.

Did he really call Erin’s bulimia an “embarrassing habit”?

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Perhaps the accused didn’t like hospitals because she felt she wasn’t in control in hospital and couldn’t follow what she thought was best for herself and her children. Hospitals do tend to treat patients as passive recipients of care. And once you have an IV connected it’s harder to leave. You are somewhat trapped. And Dr Rogers argues the accused knew she didn’t need the hospital care or treatment anyway.

Tbh this is another one of those convenient little factors that EP has in her case.

If I was a juror they'd be sick of me because all they'd be hearing is 'Erin is a known liar for self-preservation reasons'. That's the way I feel about a lot of these things.

Maybe she does have a distrust of hospitals that played into how she acted now, or maybe she has had a lot of time to come up with a narrative that fit all of the facts. The reality is that we can never quite know, and there's no reason to take Erin's word for it.

 

[MrJ]

I don't envy being one of the jurors in this case. I wonder what stuff they have been privy to since we don't get the full story in the media

 

[Kemug]

Then she backtracked and said she didnt have a tape measure, so how could she have possibly known how much of the BW she ate

Erin may be clever, but it doesn't seem that fractions are her strong point.

 

[Monstradamus]

Thinking about during the course of the fatal dinner and the plates.

I believe it was said that EP had refused / declined her guests to see her butler's pantry?

I don't know what a butler's pantry is for sure but assume it's an area adjacent the dining room or kitchen maybe where things are stored and maybe where dirty plates go after one course has been finished and the next is going to be served? Or where the next course of food is prepped and ready to be brought to the table, in the way it would need to be if one had a wait staff or butler?

Regardless, it occurs to me that EP would be rightly terrified of the residue of the BWs, the leftover scraps on used plates, the uneaten scraps, the cutlery used by the guests for eating BWs and all associated things they'd touched and used including drinking glasses and napkins etc.

It strikes me that if she cleared the table after the hot meal course, she probably treated everything she touched very carefully, she probably dashed all those things into bin liners and double bagged them so as to isolate and contain the toxic remnants. To make sure the dog wouldn't sniff at them, that she wouldn't be contaminated herself, to ensure the kids wouldn't use anything that had DC residue on it. She'd be terrified of poison everywhere. I'll bet she threw the whole lot away inside the pantry.

Perhaps she did this whilst distracting guests with her story about cancer? Also she'd have had to fend off offers of help from everyone? The women especially being older women would have thought it only right and fair to help the host clear down the table.

JMO I think all those plates went into an isolation zone, maybe even a plastic box with lid. The next course would have been fruit and cake with the small white plates and a fresh table. When the children saw the things from the table, it would have been the second course which bore no relation to the first IMO.

Yes!. Butler's Pantries in Australia generally adjoin the kitchen and hold all of the mess. Straight into a bin bag. Dirty grey plates and cutlery. Remnants of meal into a separate bin bag just in case, stored up on a high shelf. IMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Tbh this is another one of those convenient little factors that EP has in her case.

If I was a juror they'd be sick of me because all they'd be hearing is 'Erin is a known liar for self-preservation reasons'. That's the way I feel about a lot of these things.

Maybe she does have a distrust of hospitals that played into how she acted now, or maybe she has had a lot of time to come up with a narrative that fit all of the facts. The reality is that we can never quite know, and there's no reason to take Erin's word for it.

As with most people who perpetrate very extreme crimes, they are likely victims of abuse and trauma themselves. They will always have a piteous backstory. As indeed do many of us. Much of EP's obsessive thinking, negativity, paranoia, distrust, need for control etc probably genuinely comes from bad things happening to her. In fact guaranteed it does.

However, all those things don't mean she doesn't have add on traits such as murderous revenge fantasies that she's prepared to cross the line and enact. Most of us from a background of abuse, neglect, trauma, go far out of our way not to continue the harm and not to hurt another living being.

EP's word means nothing by this point and IMO everything she says should be disregarded.

 

[Kemug]

Perhaps she thinks she is (presenting her best self).

RSBM
Perhaps what we see really is her best self?!

 

[Kemug]

Erin sent me to urgent care (really)! When the elbow-ovarian cancer connection was posited here, I had what I assumed was bursitis on my elbow (google Popeye elbow...). I was waiting it to dissipate on its own, as it wasn't causing any pain. I went to urgent care and as the doctor was draining it, I asked if there was any connection with ovarian cancer. She gave me a funny look and asked where I'd heard it. I sheepishly said, "A true crime website," and headed home.

And was it ovarian cancer?

 

[Scooby-Doo]

Curious, were any photos of the wild mushrooms, Erin had on the food scales identified as death caps?

Surely the police could have zoomed in and looked at different angles




*** Erin Patterson accused of murdering relatives with beef Wellington documented herself using kitchen scales to calculate a lethal dose of toxic mushrooms, prosecutors allege.

Prosecutors on Thursday suggested photos found on her phone showing wild fungi being weighed depict her measuring the amount required to kill her guests.

Ms Patterson told the court she had likely taken the photos in question but said she didn't believe the mushrooms in them were death caps.

Key features to look for include a smooth, yellowish-green to olive-brown cap, white gills, a white stem with a ring (annulus) and a cup-like structure (volva) at the base.

Mushroom trial: Accused weighed fatal dose on kitchen scales, prosecutors say

Erin Patterson told the court she didn't believe the mushrooms in photos recovered from her phone were toxic.

www.bbc.com