Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[Deleted member 363451]

Re different plates. I don't worry about there being different plates. She didn't host much, so may have only had a good set of 4. So she gave the 4 good plates to the guests, and used the odd one for herself. Wouldn't most of us do that?

 

[Deleted member 363451]

There's a reason that she's lying about the plates IMO.

 

[Susjay]

2.56pm

Speculation and ambiguity over mushroom and dehydrator image dates​

By​

Erin Patterson is seated in the dock, closing her eyes for periods as her barrister addresses the jury after lunch today, running through evidence from mycologist Dr Tom May, phone tower expert Dr Matthew Sorell, and Christine McKenzie, a retired pharmacist who worked for the Victorian Poisons Information Centre for 17 years.

Defence barrister Colin Mandy, SC, said the prosecution really wanted to paint a visit to Loch by Erin Patterson as only possible, as it happened on the same day as images were taken of the dehydrator.

“[The] prosecution says - and it was put to her, Erin, in cross-examination - that on April 28 she had enough death cap mushrooms – assuming those in the tray are death cap mushrooms – already to kill five people.”

Mandy said that the prosecution’s theory was based on speculation and there was no evidence as to when the images that did not feature the dehydrator had been taken.

“It is impossible for those images to have been taken as the time recorded as the modified time because very often they are in a sequence of very close timings in terms of seconds. So they were not taken at those times,” Mandy said.

Mandy said he wanted to emphasise that the exhibit photographs were a selection of images from a report generated by investigators that were tagged as “evidence”.

“The investigators were only interested in those ones, and that’s why they are here in front of you,” Mandy said, but pointed out there was no evidence as to what “modified” meant in the context of those images.

Erin Patterson murder trial day 34 as it happened: Defence barrister Colin Mandy tells jury accused mushroom cook wanted to be close to in-laws; may have reacted differently to consuming to poison

Patterson’s barrister will continue his closing address in Morwell’s courtroom four on Thursday, after the judge warned jurors to expect a long direction from the bench next week.

www.theage.com.au

I’m wondering if the Facebook group was the main source of info that a dehydrator was used by the accused? Did knowledge of its existence come from anywhere else? The children knew but it may not have come up. What I’m getting at is, would police have known about it without the Facebook group? And that’s why the police looked for purchase date and place of purchase and where it was located - why they followed up on the dumping of dehydrator with record of payment at tip? Would police have known about hiding mushrooms in chocolate brownies without the Facebook group? So how important was this group to evidence collection? And would the accused have realised her digital activities were so easy to trace?

 

[Jake18]

If Erin is found guilty I think the CCTV images from the device station and the footage form the hospital will contribute.

In spite of protestations that actually she was very unwell and had explosive diarrhoea the footage of her strolling in to the device station, wearing white pants and then taking time to peruse the food sections and carefully choose items goes a long way to proving the opposite.

 

[arrogantcat]

Colin Mandy tells the jury that his closing argument will continue into the afternoon, saying "I won't apologise for that".

You should be Mr Mandy..!

Might be an unpopular opinion, but he’s just doing his job. And doing it well imo.

We want her to have the most robust and thorough defence possible because that’s how the justice system works best. If they throw all they have at it, there’s no room for argument or appeals when the verdict comes in.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Just up in sunny England and came to an inconsistency in the defence case.

If the meal was just about connecting with her support group etc then why was she so desperate for Simon to attend?

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Might be an unpopular opinion, but he’s just doing his job. And doing it well imo.

We want her to have the most robust and thorough defence possible because that’s how the justice system works best. If they throw all they have at it, there’s no room for argument or appeals when the verdict comes in.

He is doing it well and he's placed some serious doubt into proceedings. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a not-guilty verdict. I would be surprised if I find out the jury split was in favour of EP, but I think there's a strong chance a couple won't be able to get over the barrier for guilty.

 

[kazbar]

How much more does Ian have to be put through, why discredit him once again. He was on his death bed and went through a lot of trauma losing his wife and relatives, how is he going to remember the exact colour of the plate (not many people would). What is critical is that 2 people said Erin's plate was a different colour (the exact colour is not that importangt IMO).

Exactly! Light grey could be confused with white, but orange sure can't be!

The dessert consisted of fruit and cake. Perfectly acceptable to put on small white dinner plates. You wouldn't put them in a dessert bowl.

 

[SouthAussie]

He is doing it well and he's placed some serious doubt into proceedings. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a not-guilty verdict. I would be surprised if I find out the jury split was in favour of EP, but I think there's a strong chance a couple won't be able to get over the barrier for guilty.

Though a couple of jurors not being able to go for a guilty verdict does not mean a not guilty verdict. It means a hung jury. Unless the majority acquiesce to the minority opinion.

imo

 

[Susjay]

Key Event
1m ago

Defence warns of limitations in mobile phone evidence​

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy summarises the evidence of telecommunications expert Dr Sorell, warning the jury to be careful of missing information.

He says the prosecution skipped over the limitations, the complexities and the nuances in anaylsing mobile phone data.


He says that the jury cannot exclude that there are other possibilities about Ms Patterson's movements on the days in question in April and May 2023.

Dr Roger’s did say though that the individual pieces of the puzzle would fit together to form a picture. Not fragments on their own - the pieces fit together to tell a story.

 

[kazbar]

Key Event
1m ago
Defence highlights 'turning point' for Erin Patterson.

By Judd Boaz

Mr Mandy identifies a point in which Erin Patterson began to panic.

He says the conversation Erin recalled where she says her husband asked her if she'd used the dehydrator to poison his parents was a "fulcrum" or "turning point" in her mind.

Simon Patterson rejected ever saying this in his testimony.

But Mr Mandy says this triggered Ms Patterson to start considering what could have occurred.

"Once they have that conversation about the dehydrator, the wheels start turning," Mr Mandy says.

"She knows how ill people are, she knows that [death cap mushrooms] are the possible culprit.

"She starts panicking, and she starts lying at that point."

Mr Mandy says even if Ms Patterson had come clean at the moment, the lunch guests were too far gone and there was "nothing medical professionals could do".

Did Simon know that she had a dehydrator? How and when did he come to know?

 

[Porky1]

He is doing it well and he's placed some serious doubt into proceedings. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a not-guilty verdict. I would be surprised if I find out the jury split was in favour of EP, but I think there's a strong chance a couple won't be able to get over the barrier for guilty.

Agree 100%

 

[Susjay]

especially if you have a fear of hospitals or whatever Erin had..

Perhaps the accused didn’t like hospitals because she felt she wasn’t in control in hospital and couldn’t follow what she thought was best for herself and her children. Hospitals do tend to treat patients as passive recipients of care. And once you have an IV connected it’s harder to leave. You are somewhat trapped. And Dr Rogers argues the accused knew she didn’t need the hospital care or treatment anyway.

 

[Susjay]

If Erin is found guilty I think the CCTV images from the device station and the footage form the hospital will contribute.

In spite of protestations that actually she was very unwell and had explosive diarrhoea the footage of her strolling in to the device station, wearing white pants and then taking time to peruse the food sections and carefully choose items goes a long way to proving the opposite.

If I had items related to a bush poo in a dog excrement bag in my handbag, it would be into the refuse bin adjacent to the petrol bawser ASAP. Or, into the refuse bin that’s always outside the front door at petrol stations. But that’s just me - not necessarily how everyone would act.

 

[IBR]

Just trying to sort out things in my mind. Did the defence address Heather’s remark about four matching plates and one odd coloured one? At all? I believe he didn’t, because it wouldn’t have helped his argumentation that Ian’s memory was wrong when another witness remembered the same as Ian.

 

[Spectrix]

Did Simon know that she had a dehydrator? How and when did he come to know?

Erin claims that the dehydrator was discussed at the hospital, and that Simon had asked her: "Is that what you used to poison them?".

But Simon denies ever saying that.

 

[arrogantcat]

Though a couple of jurors not being able to go for a guilty verdict does not mean a not guilty verdict. It means a hung jury. Unless the majority acquiesce to the minority opinion.

imo

good point - I was forgetting this too. The judge might then go to majority verdict, if there’s just one NG juror.

But I do agree with MaxDecimus13 - he’s done a good job highlighting the gaps in the prosecution case and a couple of NG doesn’t seem beyond the realm of possibility either.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

Might be an unpopular opinion, but he’s just doing his job. And doing it well imo.

We want her to have the most robust and thorough defence possible because that’s how the justice system works best. If they throw all they have at it, there’s no room for argument or appeals when the verdict comes in.

He's doing his best

But Mandy didn't try to suggest that Erin is a credible witness either

 

[SouthAussie]

good point - I was forgetting this too. The judge might then go to majority verdict, if there’s just one NG juror.

But I do agree with MaxDecimus13 - he’s done a good job highlighting the gaps in the prosecution case and a couple of NG doesn’t seem beyond the realm of possibility either.

I don't think the law allows the judge to accept a majority verdict for murder in Victoria.

I am hoping that they don't take manslaughter off the table. But I think they might because (like the Greg Lynn trial) the prosecution has not claimed this could be anything but deliberate murder, as far as I can tell.


(4) A verdict that the accused is guilty or not guilty of murder or treason or an offence against section 71 or 72 of the Drugs, Poisons and Controlled Substances Act 1981or an offence against a law of the Commonwealth must be unanimous.

JURIES ACT 2000 - SECT 46 Failure to reach unanimous verdict in criminal trials

classic.austlii.edu.au

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Key Event
1m ago
Defence highlights 'turning point' for Erin Patterson.

By Judd Boaz

Mr Mandy identifies a point in which Erin Patterson began to panic.

He says the conversation Erin recalled where she says her husband asked her if she'd used the dehydrator to poison his parents was a "fulcrum" or "turning point" in her mind.

Simon Patterson rejected ever saying this in his testimony.

But Mr Mandy says this triggered Ms Patterson to start considering what could have occurred.

"Once they have that conversation about the dehydrator, the wheels start turning," Mr Mandy says.

"She knows how ill people are, she knows that [death cap mushrooms] are the possible culprit.

"She starts panicking, and she starts lying at that point."

Mr Mandy says even if Ms Patterson had come clean at the moment, the lunch guests were too far gone and there was "nothing medical professionals could do".

It’s all Simon’s fault!

I think she’s is lying about this, and seems a likely strategy to put blame on Simon.

He was so far removed from EP’s life and daily food prep … he did not know about the dehydrator or mushroom hobby. No one did.

Then “so far gone” so don’t bother helping …. Isn’t that a crime? Don’t bother calling 999 … better yet, smother them with a pillow, because they’ll die any way?