GUILTY Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 *Arrest* #19

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  • #401
The document I linked in my post is the most recent update/final decision and ruling. <modsnipped: rude and personalizing>

As below, a screenshot of my post: see “Source”
View attachment 609202

Source once more, below:
HIGH COURT
https://jade.io/article/src/1146363/2960932

QUOTES sourced directly from linked document:
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS

“Importantly, however, I consider that an inference that Simon Patterson ingested poison — whether at the hands of his wife or by other means — could not safely be drawn on the available evidence. According to the medical evidence, the gastrointestinal symptoms he exhibited may well have been due to other cause.”

“To my mind, these supposed similarities are wholly unremarkable, and do not imbue the evidence with significant probative value. Even if the fact that her lunch guests were poisoned were capable of going some way towards founding an inference that the respondent’s husband was also poisoned, in circumstances where the source of Simon Patterson’s gastrointestinal disturbance is empirically undeterminable, any such inference would be weak.”

“Clearly on principle it is not admissible, on a charge of murder or attempted murder by poisoning, to give evidence that the accused has poisoned other persons, where that evidence shows no more than that the accused is a poisoner.”

That is the judge's opinion.

The charges have not been tested (tried) in court.

The judge ordered Simon's charges to be separated. The DPP withdrew them. We don't know if they were withdrawn with or without prejudice. We don't know what a jury would rule if the DPP prosecuted Simon's charges.

imo
 
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  • #402
There was also a poisonous plant - was it hemlock? If the police did a check on my computer they wouldn't find any searches on poisons, except for Death Caps, which I looked at after Erin's killing spree...
Hemlock, and nightshade I believe.
 
  • #403
The document I linked in my post is the most recent update/final decision and ruling. <modsnipped: rude and personalizing >

As below, a screenshot of my post: see “Source”
View attachment 609202

Source once more, below:
HIGH COURT
https://jade.io/article/src/1146363/2960932

QUOTES sourced directly from linked document:
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS

“Importantly, however, I consider that an inference that Simon Patterson ingested poison — whether at the hands of his wife or by other means — could not safely be drawn on the available evidence. According to the medical evidence, the gastrointestinal symptoms he exhibited may well have been due to other cause.”

“To my mind, these supposed similarities are wholly unremarkable, and do not imbue the evidence with significant probative value. Even if the fact that her lunch guests were poisoned were capable of going some way towards founding an inference that the respondent’s husband was also poisoned, in circumstances where the source of Simon Patterson’s gastrointestinal disturbance is empirically undeterminable, any such inference would be weak.”

“Clearly on principle it is not admissible, on a charge of murder or attempted murder by poisoning, to give evidence that the accused has poisoned other persons, where that evidence shows no more than that the accused is a poisoner.”

I think I see where you are getting confused. You may have sourced the doc from the office of public prosecutions, but they aren't the ones who authored it. It was authored by the Supreme Court of Victoria. All the quotes you reference come from them.

1755493005378.webp

It's right there on the title page. The Director of Public Prosecutions is the appellant, meaning the person who filed the appeal. The document itself was authored by the court, specifically Judges Forrest and Emerton.

And the decision of the court was that the trial judge was correct about severing the trials. I've circled it in red. After this, the decision was made to drop charges 1-3, but that was not determined by the court.

1755493303082.webp
And again, the document's conclusion discusses severing the trials. Nowhere in this document do they talk about dropping the charges, because that wasn't in the purview of the appeals court.
 

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  • #404
I think I see where you are getting confused. You may have sourced the doc from the office of public prosecutions, but they aren't the ones who authored it. It was authored by the Supreme Court of Victoria. All the quotes you reference come from them.

View attachment 609204

It's right there on the title page. The Director of Public Prosecutions is the appellant, meaning the person who filed the appeal. The document itself was authored by the court, specifically Judges Forrest and Emerton.

And the decision of the court was that the trial judge was correct about severing the trials. I've circled it in red. After this, the decision was made to drop charges 1-3, but that was not determined by the court.

View attachment 609205
And again, the document's conclusion discusses severing the trials. Nowhere in this document do they talk about dropping the charges, because that wasn't in the purview of the appeals court.
Thanks @ch_13
So the charges for Simon's poisoning/attempted murder can be heard at a later date, if required?
 
  • #405
See, if you asked me what my personal opinion of Erin Patterson was I would have no hesitation or problem answering you.
As is your moral right to freedom of speech.
 
  • #406
@packetgravy which evidence presented at trial did you find particularly powerful in convicting Erin?
 
  • #407
Thanks @ch_13
So the charges for Simon's poisoning/attempted murder can be heard at a later date, if required?
This is where I feel sorry for Simon.

He deserves his day in court but, once the Simon charges were severed from the mushroom charges it made sense for the latter to be heard first, as they were stronger IMO, with toxicology evidence.

Simon then had to give evidence that wasn’t his whole truth so as to not prejudice the jury and it is now unlikely that his claim will go to court, Erin will likely not be released from prison until 3-4 decades have passed. I would be very surprised if the DPP allows another trial for someone who will probably already die in prison.

I hope he writes a book or gives an interview. It must have been terrible to listen to Erin’s messages about how he was a “deadbeat” dad etc and not respond.
 
  • #408
Thanks @ch_13
So the charges for Simon's poisoning/attempted murder can be heard at a later date, if required?
Nope.
I think I see where you are getting confused. You may have sourced the doc from the office of public prosecutions, but they aren't the ones who authored it. It was authored by the Supreme Court of Victoria. All the quotes you reference come from them.

View attachment 609204

It's right there on the title page. The Director of Public Prosecutions is the appellant, meaning the person who filed the appeal. The document itself was authored by the court, specifically Judges Forrest and Emerton.

And the decision of the court was that the trial judge was correct about severing the trials. I've circled it in red. After this, the decision was made to drop charges 1-3, but that was not determined by the court.

View attachment 609205
And again, the document's conclusion discusses severing the trials. Nowhere in this document do they talk about dropping the charges, because that wasn't in the purview of the appeals court.

We are barking up the same tree bud, mine is just the downloadable version 😂

The same records, the same quotes, the same ruling and the same legal process that inevitably concluded in the decision to drop the charges.
 
  • #409
  • #410
I assumed there are limitations. For example, when referencing something outside of one’s jurisdiction.

Are they are a lawyer?

Providing a source for decisions related to public trials is helpful for context. I requested a source for my own educational purposes.
A verified insider is a verified insider. It doesn’t matter what their profession is.

And as for wanting a link for your educational purposes - you don’t always get what you want.

For example, I would like $10MIL; it would be fun to be super rich. But it ain’t going to happen.
 
  • #411
  • #412
A verified insider is a verified insider. It doesn’t matter what their profession is.

And as for wanting a link for your educational purposes - you don’t always get what you want.

For example, I would like $10MIL; it would be fun to be super rich. But it ain’t going to happen.

A request is not the same as a demand, there is of course no obligation to respond.

My condolences on your financial situation, I hope it improves.
 
  • #413
  • #414
A verified insider is a verified insider. It doesn’t matter what their profession is.

And as for wanting a link for your educational purposes - you don’t always get what you want.

For example, I would like $10MIL; it would be fun to be super rich. But it ain’t going to happen.

I’m not actually stating things as fact without evidence anyway (mostly, sometimes I forget to link). I wouldn’t expect anyone to take my word just because I’m a VI on this case. Even some of the speculation I’ve heard I’ve stated it’s speculative.

Packetgravy because you’re new around here I’ll give you more leeway, not sure if you know but WS is pretty strict on backing up your interpretations of things with links which helps us all to understand your point and keep this thread more credible. Look forward to hearing your views on the evidence that convicted Erin!
 
  • #415
A request is not the same as a demand, there is of course no obligation to respond.

My condolences on your financial situation, I hope it improves.
Oh come on, not having $10m is hardly an abnormal financial situation. I’m sure condolences aren’t necessary 🤣
 
  • #416
A verified insider is a verified insider. It doesn’t matter what their profession is.

And as for wanting a link for your educational purposes - you don’t always get what you want.

For example, I would like $10MIL; it would be fun to be super rich. But it ain’t going to happen.

A verified insider does need to contextualise their connection to the case (or their status in general as a professional) and prove that to WS in order to be verified. For example there's a wild difference between for example being a social media friend -or- the perpetrator's close relative -or- their next door neighbour - or a professional medic in the field - or an LE detective... etc.
 
  • #417
  1. I also consider that the evidence of Events 1, 2 and 3 is inadmissible as coincidence evidence in proof of the fact that Donald Patterson, Gail Patterson, Ian Wilkinson and Heather Wilkinson were deliberately poisoned. Since the cause of Simon Patterson’s gastrointestinal disturbance is indeterminable, and the fact that he fell ill after consuming food prepared by the respondent is no proof that he was poisoned, the facts founding charges 1, 2 and 3 cannot properly be considered coincidence evidence capable of going in proof of charges 4, 5, 6 and 7. In my view, in order to use the events founding charges 1, 2 and 3 in proof of the disputed fact on charges 4, 5, 6 and 7, it must first be assumed that the respondent deliberately poisoned Simon Patterson. But in circumstances where the cause of his gastrointestinal disturbance cannot be determined, to endeavour to use the evidence in that way would be fallacious. It would involve circular reasoning, permitting impermissible speculation to displace legitimate inference. Plainly, in my view, the evidence does not have significant probative value, substantially outweighing any prejudicial effect it would have on the respondent.

The decision to drop the charges was based on the lack of evidence proving the cause/s of Simons illness. This was the right decision to make as without a clear cause being determined we are at risk of prejudicial speculation.


What this is saying is that the pre-lunch alleged poisonings of Simon cannot be used as coincidence evidence to prove the lunch poisonings of the others. Had the prosecution not wanted to use it as coincidence evidence, what then?

Consider what they might have said if Simon had toxicology results proving he had ingested poisons. I still think they would have said it was prejudicial in determining her intent as regards the others. More so in fact.

But what if the prosecution had not wanted to use the evidence of any one single incident as coincidence evidence to prove the other charges? It doesn't make sense in their ruling that effectively Simon can never attempt to get justice for alleged crimes against him. If he had a trial now the same facts of the, now proven, lunch poisonings would still be highly prejudicial, as coincidence evidence. Juries have to be trusted to be able to consider multiple alleged crimes on their own merits. I think the court of appeal ruling was, to use their own description, fallacious.

There was more than just several indetermined bouts of critical illness after eating Erin's food to consider. There was -

1/ The ruling out of other usual causes (gastro) and the damage it did to his organs and the fact it was life-threatening and he was usually healthy, not a vulnerable, elderly or immune-compromised person.
2/ The fact that it never happened to Simon in 50-odd years of his whole life when he ate apart from Erin.
3/ The fact they were separated and these were attempts at holidaying together, on their first nights, when she really didn't want to reconcile because she booted him out shortly afterwards and was messaging people about hating him.
4/ His food was kept separate and distinguishable from hers, plus the children were kept separate.
5/ She had searches on her devices for poisons.
6/ He had spoken to his doctor and his parents about his suspicions of her poisoning him before the fatal lunch.
7/ He had prepared a spreadsheet for his doctor and changed his medical power of attorney (if that's the right
terminology).
8/ He avoided eating her food after that and declined the invitation to the lunch even when he considered she could be terminally ill, because he was no longer prepared to take that risk.
9/ Erin never got sick.
10/ Erin apparently didn't want to co-parent, and she didn't want to divorce either.

IMO
 
  • #418
There was also a poisonous plant - was it hemlock?

IIRC, police considered the possibility of SP having been poisoned by hemlock. Something must have triggered that consideration.
 
  • #419
Now that EP is convicted for these poisonings, it could be maybe legally considered if SP has a case with enough evidence to support that EP attempted to murder him on several occasions.

If that were so, the case would need to include EP's conviction as a part of the pattern of offending -AND- have good enough evidence that SP's medical problems were caused by some form of poisoning, have no other explanation, that he did not poison himself, plus try to build a case that all the instances were when he had eaten food provided by EP, with some proof of dates, locations, and relation to medical incidents all coming together.

If the courts would allow EP's conviction as part of the circumstantial evidence for a new separate case and SP can build a good enough scaffold using medical records, professional opinions, any remaining biological samples, other witnesses, diaries, dates, times, specifics... I don't see why he wouldn't have a chance at winning a case. If legal experts say this cannot be done, I'd believe them.

JMO MOO
 
  • #420
What this is saying is that the pre-lunch alleged poisonings of Simon cannot be used as coincidence evidence to prove the lunch poisonings of the others. Had the prosecution not wanted to use it as coincidence evidence, what then?

Consider what they might have said if Simon had toxicology results proving he had ingested poisons. I still think they would have said it was prejudicial in determining her intent as regards the others. More so in fact.

But what if the prosecution had not wanted to use the evidence of any one single incident as coincidence evidence to prove the other charges? It doesn't make sense in their ruling that effectively Simon can never attempt to get justice for alleged crimes against him. If he had a trial now the same facts of the, now proven, lunch poisonings would still be highly prejudicial, as coincidence evidence. Juries have to be trusted to be able to consider multiple alleged crimes on their own merits. I think the court of appeal ruling was, to use their own description, fallacious.

There was more than just several indetermined bouts of critical illness after eating Erin's food to consider. There was -

1/ The ruling out of other usual causes (gastro) and the damage it did to his organs and the fact it was life-threatening and he was usually healthy, not a vulnerable, elderly or immune-compromised person.
2/ The fact that it never happened to Simon in 50-odd years of his whole life when he ate apart from Erin.
3/ The fact they were separated and these were attempts at holidaying together, on their first nights, when she really didn't want to reconcile because she booted him out shortly afterwards and was messaging people about hating him.
4/ His food was kept separate and distinguishable from hers, plus the children were kept separate.
5/ She had searches on her devices for poisons.
6/ He had spoken to his doctor and his parents about his suspicions of her poisoning him before the fatal lunch.
7/ He had prepared a spreadsheet for his doctor and changed his medical power of attorney (if that's the right
terminology).
8/ He avoided eating her food after that and declined the invitation to the lunch even when he considered she could be terminally ill, because he was no longer prepared to take that risk.
9/ Erin never got sick.
10/ Erin apparently didn't want to co-parent, and she didn't want to divorce either.

IMO
11/ He hasn't been sick since Erin last fed him a meal.
JMO
 
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