GUILTY Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 *Arrest* #19

[packetgravy]

@packetgravy

Doctors in Australia don't have a blanket legal duty to report suspected poisoning to police unless certain conditions apply. Their first duty is to the patient: treat the medical emergency, document evidence, and act in the patient’s best interests.
If it is a child, or poison-related death, or someone is at immediate harm (which, arguably Simon wasn't because he wasn no longer partaking in her food), they have to report, but it appears the doctor did the right thing in encouraging Simon to document his concerns as a first port of call.

I mean, I would have liked to see Simon taken a bit more seriously in the legal sense, but we don't know whether Simon was documenting this and needed to keep it on the down low for custody reasons, etc. Strategically speaking, it seemed like a better idea to observe this without confronting her at the time, IMO.

Mandatory notification by a treating doctor - Avant

Delivering support in doctors professional and personal life.

avant.org.au

The link you provided is regarding mandatory notifications for health practitioners treating another health practitioner.

Note: This information is for health practitioners who are treating another health practitioner. To find out about your obligations regarding all other health practitioners, refer to our factsheet.

 

[MrJ]

The thing in general with ADHD or Autism (and there are people that have both) is that “it’s an explanation but it’s not an excuse”. Even if EP does have Autism it is a very cynical thing to use it as a shield for bad behaviour

 

[drsleuth]

The link you provided is regarding mandatory notifications for health practitioners treating another health practitioner.

Note: This information is for health practitioners who are treating another health practitioner. To find out about your obligations regarding all other health practitioners, refer to our factsheet.

How about this one

https://www.racgp.org.au/getattachment/9ba7da06-fd5c-4f1e-98e4-329e4b5ce858/attachment.aspx

I think at the very least a GP would need to get legal advice before doing anything by disclosing to a third party ( police ) what a patient has told them ( ie that Simon thought that Erin was allegedly poisoning him ) & would certainly need the patients consent IMO

 

[packetgravy]

You've now linked the educational pathways for Doctor's

We are an independent national standards body for medical education and training​

The AMC’s purpose is to ensure that the standards of education, training and assessment of the medical profession promote and protect the health of the Australian community.

That’s some lazy sleuthing on my part, apologies. I wrongly assumed the AMC provided resources regarding the privacy act or a doctors duty of care.

My original query remains and I have not managed to dig up any solid information on the matter.

I did however read the privacy act and came across the following:

Australian Government
Privacy Act

Chapter C: Permitted general situations

The information handling requirements imposed by some APPs do not apply if a ‘permitted general situation’ exists.

www.oaic.gov.au

Lessen or prevent a serious threat​

C.9This permitted general situation applies to a serious threat to the life, health or safety of any individual, or to public health or safety. The permitted general situation would not apply after the threat has passed. A ‘serious’ threat is one that poses a significant danger to an individual or individuals. The likelihood of a threat occurring as well as the consequences if the threat materialises are both relevant. A threat that may have dire consequences but is highly unlikely to occur would not normally constitute a serious threat. On the other hand, a potentially harmful threat that is likely to occur, but at an uncertain time, may be a serious threat, such as a threatened outbreak of infectious disease. This allows an APP entity to take preventative action to stop a serious threat from escalating before it materialises.

IMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I share the same sentiment, Simon was not taken seriously by one single person. I thought this would be something a doctor has a duty of care to report, regardless of a personal relationship with the patient.

Also, Dr Chris Webster (after receiving a call from Dr Chris Ford about the potential poisonings), did not call the police until after Erin had left.

When he did speak to them, he chose not to mention the poisonings were suspected to be deliberate.

Just… why

Also, even if the poisonings weren't deliberate, ie there was something toxic / dangerous in EP's kitchen (this can and does happen), that would be health emergency under food health and hygiene legislation, most especially as she was feeding children in her home.

There can be situations where dangerous spores or a toxic substance is leaking or transmitting and making people sick.

Why did nobody even so much as say EP, there's a serious problem and we think there's something in your home that's making SP sick and we need to do an urgent investigation?

Instead a whole large group of people go over for dinner and are taken to their deaths / near deaths.
JMO MOO

 

[packetgravy]

How about this one

https://www.racgp.org.au/getattachment/9ba7da06-fd5c-4f1e-98e4-329e4b5ce858/attachment.aspx

View attachment 609651
View attachment 609652
View attachment 609653
View attachment 609654

I think at the very least a GP would need to get legal advice before doing anything by disclosing to a third party ( police ) what a patient has told them ( ie that Simon thought that Erin was allegedly poisoning him ) & would certainly need the patients consent IMO

I did see this earlier but I found the Privacy Act to be a lot more informative. It would surprise me if an exemption did not apply for a patients whose life is at risk. IMO

 

[Susjay]

DSM5 was 2013.
Until then, Asperger’s was on the schedule.

Yep, DSMV or DSM-5 removed the Aspergers and it’s not there in the updated version either. All good - things change.

 

[Susjay]

True that.
The only diagnostic criteria are social communication/interaction deficits and restricted/repetitive behaviours/interests/activities.

Anything else isn't necessarily autism - but could be one of the things often comorbid with autism - such as anxiety, OCD, ADHD, cognitive deficits, cPTSD etc. And that's a highly individual mix. Many people with ASD have none of those things

also if she is on the spectrum, I don't think it's what caused her to do what she did. The fact she's a bad, selfish, evil person is why - and that's not a neurotypical or neurodivergent trait, its a human one - sadly.

Yes, agree most ardently. Could be comorbities there as well? The observation that she may display some Aut traits, and that those traits do not a murderer make, has been made multiple times in this discussion. - Multiple meaning lots and lots.

 

[packetgravy]

Also, even if the poisonings weren't deliberate, ie there was something toxic / dangerous in EP's kitchen (this can and does happen), that would be health emergency under food health and hygiene legislation, most especially as she was feeding children in her home.

There can be situations where dangerous spores or a toxic substance is leaking or transmitting and making people sick.

Why did nobody even so much as say EP, there's a serious problem and we think there's something in your home that's making SP sick and we need to do an urgent investigation?

Instead a whole large group of people go over for dinner and are taken to their deaths / near deaths.
JMO MOO

Yeah I wonder if the children share the same doctor? Should that be the case, then in my
opinion the children were at risk of harm if their full time caregiver is poisoning their other caregiver.

https://providers.dffh.vic.gov.au/mandatory-reporting

I feel this should be covered under duty of care and fall under the mandatory umbrella to report.
We saw what eventuated - four people were fed poisonous meals inside the children’s home at the dinner table. Three of them died. And according to Erin, she fed the children the same meal.

Both Simon and the children were at risk.


IMO

 

[Susjay]

I think Colin might have definitely used that in her defence if it were true. I have a friend with Aspergers and apart from the usual symptoms like having to live by a routine, lack of empathy, sensory sensitivities, strong and particular interests, the thing that is most obvious is his meltdowns. He seems to have actually become worse with age. His meltdowns over small things is just frightening. I've made a decision that I'm never going to go as a passenger in his car again...

Wow, some of these neurodivergent conditions can get more difficult to handle as you get older for sure. The defence wouldn't have been able to use a neurodivergent diagnosis as a defence though. There might be reasons for strange behaviour but behaviour can be managed hopefully with help. A condition might be a consideration ? But not an excuse. Not sure?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yep, DSMV or DSM-5 removed the Aspergers and it’s not there in the updated version either. All good - things change.

The name Aspergers was changed / removed because it came out that Hans Asperger was a nazi war criminal who collaborated willingly in experimenting on and torturing and killing children / people in the barbaric medical experiments.

The traits of autism all come under ASD in the medical diagnostic manuals now. Some people think this means that 'high functioning autism' has been de-medicalised or removed, that is not the case, it was simply in relation to the name.

JMO MOO

 

[Monstradamus]

Yeah I wonder if the children share the same doctor? Should that be the case, then in my
opinion the children were at risk of harm if their full time caregiver is poisoning their other caregiver.

https://providers.dffh.vic.gov.au/mandatory-reporting

I feel this should be covered under duty of care and fall under the mandatory umbrella to report.
We saw what eventuated - four people were fed poisonous meals inside the children’s home at the dinner table. Three of them died. And according to Erin, she fed the children the same meal.

Both Simon and the children were at risk.


IMO

Yes, they were at risk. From contaminated surfaces, cooking utensils, cutlery, etc. Perhaps an ill-hidden Tupperware container of toxic DC mushroom powder. A few minute DC fragments swirling around in the dishwasher. Accidentally left there by their own murderous mother.

But each time she allegedly poisoned Simon, the children were not there. Nor were they there for her "special" lunch.

She made sure there was distance between the two she loved the most, and her despicable actions. She didn't appear to have any qualms about hurting their father, or his family.

It's a bit like packet gravy. It's convenient, but often comes with downsides, imo.

 

[Susjay]

There is a saying “if you have met 1 person with autism, you have met 1 person with autism.”
There really are no “usual symptoms “
There are common traits but it’s very diverse!ye

There is a saying “if you have met 1 person with autism, you have met 1 person with autism.”
There really are no “usual symptoms “
There are common traits but it’s very diverse!

Exactly, which is why I say each person with autism is like a fingerprint- unique. But without clusters of behaviours or traits as you say, we don’t get the understanding of a neurodiverse condition.

 

[packetgravy]

Whatever, she obviously had a different plate to the ones that her guests had...

This was a response to an ongoing discussion regarding the plates and the speculation Erin had binned them following the lunch. IMO she did not dispose of her own plate and I am unsure about the remaining plates.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Wow, some of these neurodivergent conditions can get more difficult to handle as you get older for sure. The defence wouldn't have been able to use a neurodivergent diagnosis as a defence though. There might be reasons for strange behaviour but behaviour can be managed hopefully with help. A condition might be a consideration ? But not an excuse. Not sure?

I agree that it shouldn't be used as any sort of excuse, but I wouldn't be surprised if Colin had have used it if she really was diagnosed with it.

 

[packetgravy]

Doesn't look orangey/tan to me.

I raised the exposure, “orangey/tan” seems like a perfectly acceptable colour description from an elderly man lol.

 

[Monstradamus]

I agree that it shouldn't be used as any sort of excuse, but I wouldn't be surprised if Colin had have used it if she really was diagnosed with it.

For sure.
That's why it's probably not official and another stretch of EP's version of the truth.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

This was a response to an ongoing discussion regarding the plates and the speculation Erin had binned them following the lunch. IMO she did not dispose of her own plate and I am unsure about the remaining plates.

She had no need to dispose of her own plate. There was no contaminates on it.

 

[Detechtive]

Also, even if the poisonings weren't deliberate, ie there was something toxic / dangerous in EP's kitchen (this can and does happen), that would be health emergency under food health and hygiene legislation, most especially as she was feeding children in her home.

There can be situations where dangerous spores or a toxic substance is leaking or transmitting and making people sick.

Why did nobody even so much as say EP, there's a serious problem and we think there's something in your home that's making SP sick and we need to do an urgent investigation?

Instead a whole large group of people go over for dinner and are taken to their deaths / near deaths.
JMO MOO

Simon was so sick - like I mentioned in a previous post, I had ONE laporotomy in the last year and it completely took over my entire existence - and I am *still recovering* - I can hardly walk upright, still.
He had 3, with complex organ damage, not to mention the mental health trauma of being in ICU, facing death, being dependant on people, not being able to work, etc. He would have been on opiates which mess up your mental health, sleep patterns, etc, had post-surgical complications (a near given). He would be "out of it", honestly, it is rough! A friend of mine had an emergency Laparotomy like mine and Simons (sans poison) and she - 3 years on, is still recuperating.

I think if he was in his right mind he probably would have advocated for himself better, but he was still incredibly sick and I would even think he has serious long-term medical repercussions (eg: ileostomy or colostomy bag) etc.

IMO only.

Edit: And this is why I also find her disgusting attitude towards Simon wanting a phone charger and not helping out with the kids, and being be "too much of a burden" and kicking him out insufferable. She is truly a vile human (using that term loosely).

The violence on his body from her attempted murders of him would be obscene. Forever maimed, in pain, probably on nutritional supplements for life after having nearly 2m of bowel removed, etc etc etc. In ways, worse than death, I would imagine.

 

[packetgravy]

Yes, they were at risk. From contaminated surfaces, cooking utensils, cutlery, etc. Perhaps an ill-hidden Tupperware container of toxic DC mushroom powder. A few minute DC fragments swirling around in the dishwasher. Accidentally left there by their own murderous mother.

But each time she allegedly poisoned Simon, the children were not there. Nor were they there for her "special" lunch.

She made sure there was distance between the two she loved the most, and her despicable actions. She didn't appear to have any qualms about hurting their father, or his family.

It's a bit like packet gravy. It's convenient, but often comes with downsides, imo.

If poisons are being handled on and around cooking surfaces and being prepared for consumption (even outside of the property) then yes, that’s a major risk.